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Passions in Poetry

"Womanhood" in America

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Juju
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since 12-29-2003
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In your dreams


0 posted 01-29-2013 12:55 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I read an earlier post concerning "what it means to be a man," here in the USA. I went through each and every post. I know I have read in other blogs that "men are no longer the productive society leaders" they where forty to sixty years ago. Normally I don't really care, but due to events over the last few months this got me thinking.

Perhaps it's easy to blame young men of today of falling from the straight and narrow path to salvation. I wonder sometimes if it is a lonely road.

Traditionally, as a child in America, we were protected from harm and loved unconditionally by our parents. Slowly we are raised to know love is not forever and our hearts become hardened to faith and forgiveness. Our wicked tongues hate our neighbors and brothers and our eyes' perversion began to covet the innocence of childhood.

So instead, children now are forced to teach parents unconditional love: like teaching a trick to an old dog. How tiring must it be to love someone when you do not know what love is.

When God created man he was alone... Even with all the animals and wonders that the Garden of Eden provided, he was alone. We know this from the bible. Therefore from part of him came woman. They were apart of each other, and the same.

Today I think about what it means to be a woman. Everything I see, hear and feel. Perhaps it's easy to close our eyes and point our finger into the darkness. I find myself now 27 years of age. I made a mess of my life "fulfilling" my so called "self-esteem" with lies of "independence" and "self reliance." The rise of feminism brought the "plague" of we "don't need men" to carry the mantle of responsibility."

As men Struggle and compete with women over "responsibility," and children like peter pan go out to play... No body needs anyone and no one grows up.

The truth is a real woman needs a man and a real man needs a woman. The mantle of responsibility needs to be carried by both in marriage. They need to teach their children unconditional love so that the children grow to seek and desire unconditional love from others. Not just love of a woman, but love of family and community.

Men 50+ years ago sacrificed so much because they not only love their wives and community, but they needed them as well. Women supported the men (although in a different way then is possible today) because they loved them and supported their community because they loved their community.
  

Sincerely

Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Sunshine
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Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
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Listening to every heart


1 posted 01-29-2013 09:46 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

The truth is a real woman needs a man and a real man needs a woman. The mantle of responsibility needs to be carried by both in marriage. They need to teach their children unconditional love so that the children grow to seek and desire unconditional love from others. Not just love of a woman, but love of family and community.

~*~

Juju, you are so very right in this one paragraph. We need to get back to a certainty that still parlays some of all of our growth into that very semblance.

God bless you for your message.

Thank you.

nakdthoughts
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since 10-29-2000
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Between the Lines


2 posted 01-30-2013 10:27 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

I think about this all the time, Juju.
You are very wise and show there is still hope for the next generations.


M
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4700
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


3 posted 01-30-2013 11:20 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I like the spirit of what you say.  

You might be going a bit too far in places though.

Is man-and-woman-relationship really a "need" for all?  A lot of people are single and very content and/or successful.  In the past that was rarely something women could be because they were so dependent on men.  Now a days it is something a lot of women can be.

Also, now a days a lot of intimate relationships are same-gendered.  I am not sure it would go over very well if you told two women committed to each other "a real woman needs a man" or two men committed to each other "a real man needs a woman"       


Juju
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In your dreams


4 posted 01-30-2013 02:00 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

E-

I was referring to men having 10 baby mamma's and children not moving out of parents basement. I was talking about the spirit of equality in the masculinity and feminine roles and treating people with love and respect no matter who or what they are or what they do. Hense "unconditional" use in my comments.

As for gay lesbian situation is not related to this subject, unless they have 10+ baby mamma or daddies(lol)or are living in their parent basement or hate mongers.

Considering most of my essay was symbolic in nature, I had no interest in alienating anyone and if any one was they probably had little care in what my message was about(love).

Juju
  

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4700
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


5 posted 02-01-2013 01:49 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But doing those things might mean they would be better off not pursuing women or marriage.   If the womanizer had been obsessed with painting instead of women, he probably would have been a great artist.  The son playing video games all the day in his parent's basement would probably not make a very good husband, but could be very good at a job that involves graphic arts and creating video games.  

Stephanos
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6 posted 02-05-2013 09:03 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant:

"I am not sure it would go over very well if you told two women committed to each other 'a real woman needs a man' or two men committed to each other 'a real man needs a woman'"


Juju was probably assuming that pesky and intractable idea that there is a teleology within gender relations, as evidenced (to mention one thing) by child bearing.  Though this isn't what her post is about, directly, I think its a reasonable and defensible assumption.  If her topic is deconstructed in usual fashion and all social situations are deemed equal (including men having 10 "baby-mammas"), what's the use?  All draw traditionally-understood lines, it's just a question of when and why some lines are erased.  Maybe some are truly bound in tradition alone, and there is no justification in keeping them.  Maybe others are bound more in anthropological realities, making their erasure perilous.  Anyway, I'm willing to hear her on the basis of her assumptions.

Stephen  

Juju
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In your dreams


7 posted 02-05-2013 06:06 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

If me some time to respond to this.

Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4700
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


8 posted 02-06-2013 02:42 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos,

I don't think I treated all social situations "equal".  I am just pointing out important differences that go against the suggestion that a "real" woman needs a man and a "real" man needs a woman.  Many people are better off single and others find more comfort and happiness in a same-gender relationship.   Whether we feel traditional marriage is better or not it is one out of a few choices that people can choose or not choose (rather than "need").  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (02-06-2013 08:47 PM).]

Juju
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Posts 3406
In your dreams


9 posted 02-19-2013 12:49 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I am very sorry for not getting back to this subject, I have been busy. I am reading over your responses and I realize my answers are very complicated so you will have to be patient. I think the best start is to break up the essay and explain. I am no literary genius so I am sure I perhaps expressed my thoughts to abstractly.

‘I read an earlier post concerning "what it means to be a man," here in the USA. I went through each and every post. I know I have read in other blogs that "men are no longer the productive society leaders" they were forty to sixty years ago. Normally I don't really care, but due to events over the last few months this got me thinking.'

'Perhaps it's easy to blame young men of today of falling from the straight and narrow path to salvation. I wonder sometimes if it is a lonely road.’

“What it means to be a man” is an ideal that has changed throughout the generations.  It takes no literary talent to state that, because it is a fact. Although millions have outlined criteria for what it takes to be a man I attempted to imply everything seems pretty lonely. I personally felt that was as much as I could say since I am no man.
Perhaps I should have quoted some examples before criticizing points of view that "men" must carry society on their shoulders, or instead implied a few less between the lines.

‘Traditionally, as a child in America, we were protected from harm and loved unconditionally by our parents. Slowly we are raised to know love is not forever and our hearts become hardened to faith and forgiveness. Our wicked tongues hate our neighbors and brothers and our eyes' perversion began to covet the innocence of childhood.’

I attempted to transition from other perspectives into my own perceived perspective. I started with what I hope most people would consider an ideal childhood.  Then I talked about how even in an ideal and protected setting, we are exposed to the world and learn to hate and hurt.  In this hate and hurt we become jealous of childhood and wage war against it. Even if we grow up in an ideal setting, sometimes the hate inside prevents us from protecting others (no matter what their age). I hope that it is understood that by child I mean an innocent person.

‘So instead, children now are forced to teach parents unconditional love: like teaching a trick to an old dog. How tiring must it be to love someone when you do not know what love is.’

When I look I this last comment, I believe the message I was trying to convey was the hopelessness of being a “child” in today’s society. One example of this is parents who have children to complete themselves, instead of out of love and sacrifice. This forces these “children” to grow up fast without learning to sacrifice. One may conclude this is perhaps a good way to produce psychopaths.  Imagine not knowing how to receive love and not wanting to give love.  I also wanted to point out the loneliness of the situation as well.  Imagine growing up learning love is only a hard thing.  Perhaps that is not a very good motivator for young adults to form real relationships.  

‘When God created man he was alone... Even with all the animals and wonders that the Garden of Eden provided, he was alone. We know this from the bible. Therefore from part of him came woman. They were apart of each other, and the same.’
This was a brief  example I stated of how the Old Testament story that states that God had no intention to have us live in this world alone. Instead he wants us to see ourselves in each other and love one another. Whether you believe in god or not, even in ancient times this shows how people felt community was to be.    

‘Today I think about what it means to be a woman. Everything I see, hear and feel. Perhaps it's easy to close our eyes and point our finger into the darkness. I find myself now 27 years of age. I made a mess of my life "fulfilling" my so called "self-esteem" with lies of "independence" and "self-reliance." The rise of feminism brought the "plague" of we "don't need men" to carry the mantle of responsibility. ‘’‘
Femininity is an interesting gender role. I know the rise of feminism, started from right and honorable fight for equality, but instead tried to redefine equality and what it means to be female. I fear in the process prevented a society of equality to occur. I know in our culture there is traditionally four gender roles, but in other culture there can be 20-30 gender role. These arise when society has a “job” that needs to be filled. The rise of feminism though brought many good things, along with the bad. You may ask what bad came from this? It is my opinion that although women should be allowed to compete with men as equals, it neglected that women or a woman can’t do everything on her own. The needs to be a support structure were everyone takes on the burden equally.

As men Struggle and compete with women over "responsibility," and children like Peter-Pan go out to play... No body needs anyone and no one grows up.
I guess what I attempted to say here was that the traditional feminine role that use to raise the kids looking at their parents never wanting to grow up, because it looks too hard. Why should they?

'The truth is a real woman needs a man and a real man needs a woman. The mantle of responsibility needs to be carried by both in marriage. They need to teach their children unconditional love so that the children grow to seek and desire unconditional love from others. Not just love of a woman, but love of family and community.'

I guess this may be interpreted many ways, but what I am saying is that whatever or whoever we are we owe our community the humility of being both a giver and a taker. Although it is believed that there is no value in someone who must be a taker (elderly or sick) in many political belief systems, it is in fact a need in society. It teaches us that we are weak and we can fail, but no matter what we are loved and valued. Elderly, the sick, and even the destitute are valued members in society because it teaches us to love.  

'Men 50+ years ago sacrificed so much because they not only love their wives and community, but they needed them as well. Women supported the men (although in a different way then is possible today) because they loved them and supported their community because they loved their community.'

Some final comments:

Even though the rise of feminism brought many good things to womankind, it also left behind a niche. It brought shame to those who are takers, where you could only be a taker if you are child. Now neither men nor women can be takers, but must constantly give or be a super hero. This leaves children watching their parents give and give, but never receive. Even if their parents are good to each other and share responsibility, this over giving, self-serving rightness is overly rampant in society.  Many children just don’t grow up, because they are afraid of failing and carrying the load alone.
Is there something wrong with men who stay at their parents’ home only playing video games? Yes. I would rather hope that they are not talented at one thing or another.  I rather not think about wasted potential in society, but none the less it is happening.  Sometimes it happens because of mental disorder, but other times who may know the reason, but it does seem to trend about the same time as the rise of “feminism.” I am not implying that women need to go back to the days of yore, but perhaps society should take a look back on its self and ask if society should be the same as community.
  
I also hope this clarified somethings. I know my rants can wonder, so if you have any more questions please be specific.

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


10 posted 02-19-2013 06:43 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

It's hard to believe ten years have passed since we first saw you here Juju.  It is a pleasure to see how much your writing has improved over that time.  

I don't think you can isolate feminism from the myriad influences and socioeconomic dynamics that are reticulate in the observations you present.  Further, you are reducing feminism to a charichature tantamount to a strawman.  Feminism begins from a simple, single premise;  that men and women are equal.  Not that they don't need each other.  
Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3406
In your dreams


11 posted 02-20-2013 03:08 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

LR

Actually I agree with you whole heartily and attempted to say that in the article, that feminism started with males and female are equal and have equal rights.

I just felt that 40+ years later it(the movement, not feminism) has transformed. Actually I am pro people having a little of both traits regardless of there sex for the betterment of society. This is why I also believe both men and women carry the responsibility to function in society.

Perhaps your point that "inequality" part isn't part of the movement and just a function of our society. That's quite possible, but I am cautious of assuming that a function of society can't taint the philosophy.    

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


12 posted 06-05-2013 08:33 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I readily admit to not reading
anything beyond your initial post
yet feel forgiven by it being enough.

I don't know what to offer you Juju
as hope . . .


Men without women guiding them are at a loss
except for war and killing . . .

I was so very lucky
I was with a woman
who said of our being:
"It will be our Camelot"
and that changed everything.


.


.

Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3406
In your dreams


13 posted 07-07-2013 05:40 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

She sounds like a very good person (:

Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Bluesy Socrateaser
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since 11-07-2002
Posts 707
In The Mirror


14 posted 06-11-2017 11:49 PM       View Profile for Bluesy Socrateaser   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bluesy Socrateaser

"Traditionally, as a child in America, we were protected from harm and loved unconditionally by our parents".

Oh. You must be speaking on a more individual basis. Maybe you had a particular household in mind when you said this rather than the country (USA) as a whole.

...just bein' Bluesy

 
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