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Rude Attacks on Women and Women's Health Used as Political Footballs, Left and Right

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Bob K
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0 posted 03-04-2012 01:16 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     Checking my e-mail, I found this as a lead-in for a Democratic Fund-raiser.  It'll probably get some dough from me, not so much because of the somewhat weak Presidential response, but because Mr. Limbaugh actually does seem to be speaking for so many of the folks on the Right, echoing attitude and language and perhaps creating a bit of both as well.

     Whether or not Mr. Romney actually said the words attributed to him below, they do sound like quite a few of the speeches I've heard him give while he was Governor of Massachusetts, and I do not hear him taking the opportunity actually to supply a quote that we can use with his name printed boldly above it.

     Or rather, he has taken that chance, and we can scarcely make out the text.

     If Senator Santorum actually said that contraception is harmful to women, I think that the quote needs to be made clear.  Harmful to women compared to What?  I would be interested if the comparison is to abstinence or to pregnancy, and I would be very interested indeed in knowing what the sources of that information might be.

     I also wonder why Mr. Santorum believes he has the right to stand in Loco Parentus for women in this case, and which women agree that he should be doing so.

     Given the very high proportion of Catholic women who have used contraception over their lifetimes, I wonder what percentage of even Catholic women believe that Mr. Santorum is speaking for them or is even speaking in their best interests.    

quote:


So here's the latest in the GOP's attack on women's health:

Rush Limbaugh is now leading the charge, waging a series of ugly attacks on a Georgetown law student named Sandra Fluke, who bravely testified in Congress to protect a woman's access to contraception and preventive care.

His response? He called her a "slut" who "wants to be paid to have sex," adding, "she's having so much sex, she can't afford the contraception." He neglected to mention that Sandra was testifying about her friend who was denied birth control she needed in order to stop ovarian cysts from growing.

Displaying a stunning lack of leadership, Mitt Romney wouldn't denounce Rush's point of view, saying, "I'll just say this, which is, it's not the language I would have used."

Our President -- on the other hand -- called Sandra yesterday to thank her for speaking out for women.

As Democrats, we rally around and support the people who put themselves on the line for the things we believe in. Right now, we need to stand with Sandra.

Add your name in support of Sandra -- and everyone fighting to protect women's health.

The attacks coming from the GOP on women's health are way over the line -- and very dangerous.

Mitt Romney has come out in support of the "personhood" amendment, which would have outlawed some forms of birth control and even in-vitro fertilization. Rick Santorum declared contraception is "harmful to women." It's happening at the state level, too, like the bill Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell is about to sign into law that will force women considering abortions to have ultrasounds, and require doctors to ask them if they'd like a picture.


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1 posted 03-04-2012 07:57 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I have to say this whole thing makes me laugh harder than I have in a long time. I'll be back to explain my laughter later.



Bob K
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2 posted 03-04-2012 03:30 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Please,
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3 posted 03-04-2012 04:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Where to begin.......ok, let's suppose a male student  with non-left leanings came out and said he was demanding that his prophylactics be paid for, than not paying for them robbed him of his rights to have sex he couldn't afford, that it interfered with his basic rights and placed him in jeopardy of catching a veneral disease or, worse, making a partner pregnant.  Tell me, Bob. Would you be jumping on a soapbox to defend him. Would Obama be calling him to applaud his bravery?  Of course you wouldn't.

That is the entire issue here and it is laughable. She wants to have sex and she wants others to pay for making it safe for her. Period. The fund-raising letter you got is pathetic, not worthy of a kindergarten student's mentality. Add your name in support of Sandra -- and everyone fighting to protect women's health.  It's not everyone fighting to protect women's health - it's Sandra wanting to have safe sex and having others pay for it.  The attacks coming from the GOP on women's health are way over the line It's got nothing to do with women's health...it's this student wanting to have sex with others footing the bill.

Fluke came to Georgetown University interested in contraceptive coverage: She researched the Jesuit college’s health plans for students before enrolling, and found that birth control was not included. “I decided I was absolutely not willing to compromise the quality of my education in exchange for my health care,” says Fluke, who has spent the past three years lobbying the administration to change its policy on the issue. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/meet-sandra-fluke-the-woman-you-didnt-hear-at-congress-contraceptives-hearing/2012/02/16/gIQAJh57HR_blog.html

So she knew beforehand that the birth control was not covered and enrolled anyway. Apparently she is smart enough to be able to think she will be a good lawyer but not smart enough to know all the places she can go to get free birth control. http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/i-need-free-birth-control-please

Open the eyes, Bob. It's a gal wanting you to pay for her safe sex. Send her a $3,00 check then and set her up for a year then, if you like. The Democrats are doing their best to sink to new lows, which would be quite an achievement. I don't know if this girl has been working hand in hand with the DNC all along or if she is just a silly dope being used by them.  The dems jumped on this, decided to make it the cause of the day, sent out those fund-raising letters and get gullible people to write those checks.

The whole thing is about a girl wanting to have safe sex being paid for by someone else. That's the whole thing....and that's what makes it so laughable.


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4 posted 03-04-2012 05:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


On the point of Limbaugh calling her a slut, he was wrong in doing so and right in apologizing for it. Slut was too harsh a word. He wasn't wrong in his definition of what she was trying to do and how dumb the whole issue was. He simply shouldn't have used that word.

I'm curious, though. When Maher called Palin the C-word, did you complain? I don't recall seeing it.  He did it multiple times. He didn't apologize. Did Obama call Palin in support? Did the mainstream media make a big issue of it? Did the RNC send out fund-raising letters using Maher's name-calling as a reason to send in those checks?  I'm pretty sure the answer to all of those questions is no.  Will this die with Limbaugh's apology? I doubt that highly. Democrats will continue to get as much mileage out of it as they can and the mainstream media will be sure to keep it alive. Such is the world we live in.
Bob K
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5 posted 03-04-2012 08:43 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Try to stay on the subject, please.
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6 posted 03-04-2012 09:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I didn't leave the subject.
Bob K
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7 posted 03-05-2012 02:23 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     "Rude Attacks on Women and Women's Health Used as Political Footballs, Left and Right", Mike.

     The topic was not the ways in which somebody could insult a woman by conducting an unnecessary review of the frequency of her sexual contacts.  Nor was it about who was to pay for her birth control.  In the case we were talking about, the issue was about a student health agency, and the funding for student health agencies are by student fees, usually.  The notion that Mr. Limbaugh might be paying for Ms. Flukes birth control, if you examine it  rationally, is a fantasy.  

     It is not Ms. Flukes fantasy, either, actually; it is Mr. Limbaughs fantasy, since we have no access to any fantasy of Ms. Fluke; and Mr. Limbaugh is only too happy to present us with his version of what he believes to be the truth.  Since we know that Mr. Limbaugh is not in fact paying for Ms. Fluke, we can understand that Mr. Limbaugh has chosen to let the public in on a very unpleasant fantasy about a sexual relationship with a woman he has never met which allows him to make claims on her that he has no right to make.  
    
     After an accident with a conveyor belt at age twelve,  the sight of material that belongs on somebody's insides displayed in all its gory detail for the world to see on the outside makes me queasy.  At my most sarcastic, I can say "Thank you Mr. Limbaugh" from the depths of my stomach.    

     The fact that Mr. Limbaugh has chosen to lay this bit of unpleasantness out in front of the entire nation is also very unpleasant.   The issue should not die with Mr. Limbaughs apology because Mr. Limbaughs fantasy has taken over the subject, which happens to be, the way Ive tried to frame it, [bold]Rude Attacks on Women and Women's Health Used as Political Footballs, Left and Right[/bold].  And I wanted to discuss what women could hope to get from decent women's health care.  This includes contraception.  This also includes abortion.  And This also includes the issue that I understood brought Ms Fluke to attempt to testify before the Senate in the first place.

     And that, if youll remember, was quoted in my original post.

quote:

He neglected to mention that Sandra was testifying about her friend who was denied birth control she needed in order to stop ovarian cysts from growing.



     That is, Birth Control pills can be used to treat things other than the possibility of getting pregnant; and the growth of ovarian cysts is one of those things that birth control pills are authorized to treat.  The pills were supposed to be used in this case to control the spread of ovarian cysts.  Thats a womens health issue that in this case not only had nothing to do with the number of guys that Ms. Fluke did or did not boff in Mr. Limbaughs distorted imagination, but had nothing to do with Ms. Flukes personal sex life at all.

     Or, for that matter, may have had nothing to do with Ms. Flukes friends sexual behavior or sex life, either.

     I believe that Ms. Flukes friend should have had coverage for the birth control pills needed for treatment for this condition.  For that matter, she should have had coverage for birth control if she'd wanted it, too.  But that didn't seem to be the major issue here.

     For those of you who don't know about ovarian cysts, simply google them.

     They can be and often are a significant and sometimes very painful problem.  Don't take my word for it.

     I believe that the case against the University providing this kind of care  has a clear history.  Many Universities have argued in this way, often successfully for one reason or another.  This may however, be about to change.  

     That doesnt mean that Ms. Fluke and her friends dont have a right to protest and contest the Universitys position.  I am on their side in this, and I hope they prevail.  Anybody who deals with Ms. Fluke and her friend in the fashion that Mr. Limbaugh did, in my opinion, deserves to he held up to ridicule and to public mockery.  He attempted to turn an issue of honest disagreement into an occasion for an unwarrented visiously personal attack.  As a result, it appears he may have lost some sponsors, a direct financial loss which cannot have been punishing enough in my opinion.

     The subject of the thread was Rude attacks on women and womens health care as a political football.  

     Im not happy with the way that I think the Democrats are trying to make political hay out of this one, Mike.  I think that the Right is in a difficult place because its made a set of bad bargains with the religious right about how women are supposed to be treated and the more harshly the Republicans are trapped into making hard-line anti-women statements and taking anti-womens rights positions, the more they are going to alienate some perfectly loyal conservative women who do not want to leave themselves back in the sixteenth century with no recourse.  Thats what I think.

     Not all conservatives are men.

     No all conservative women are going to be thrilled with a world without birth control and abortion rights.  Some will be fine without them, of course.  A lot of Muslim women, for example, may have an easier time culturally, especially if theyre first or second generation Americans.  It may be more difficult as they assimilate.

     You can see, above, why I believe we've drifted, Mike.  Of course you've got every right to disagree.
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8 posted 03-05-2012 09:01 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, Bob, that is the headline of your thread but I replied to what you posted introducing the thread.

RUDE ATTACKS ON WOMEN - You posted the letter lambasting Limbaugh for doing such. I showed that it was nothing more than political fodder and gave an example of another rude attack on a woman that neither you, Obama or the DNC had anything derrogatory to say to prove that point.

WOMENS HEALTH USED AS POLITICAL FOOTBALLS - Very true. It is a political football that the Democrats decided to throw. Limbaugh caught the pass and ran with it. He's a talk show host, in the same way Bill Maher is a media personality. If you feel that whatever Limbaugh says reflects the will of the Republican party then must also feel that Maher reflects the will of the Democrats, all believing that Palin is the C word. The democrats decided to make political hay with the subject, as evidenced by the fund-raising letter you received by using it as a rallying cry to both get more money out of it and also go after Limbaugh once again, as they do on every opportunity, all without success.

but because Mr. Limbaugh actually does seem to be speaking for so many of the folks on the Right

Mr. Limbaugh speaks for himself, as he always does, as does Maddow, Obermann and the rest of their profession.  You show a comment by Romney, and cover your base with a "Whether or not he actually said them".  You show a comment by Santorum and cover with "If Senator Santorum actually said that...".  What Romney is proported to have said is that he did NOT agree with Limbaugh's terminology (IF he actually said that). I challenged your statement tha Rush speaks for "so many people on the right". How many people is "so many", Bob?

I wonder what percentage of even Catholic women believe that Mr. Santorum is speaking for them or is even speaking in their best interests.      WOndering means you don't know, so I wonder why you even made the comment. Personally, I wonder what percentage of Catholic women believe that Pelosi is speaking for them.

That is, Birth Control pills can be used to treat things other than the possibility of getting pregnant; and the growth of ovarian cysts is one of those things that birth control pills are authorized to treat.  The pills were supposed to be used in this case to control the spread of ovarian cysts.

Again, the qualitative "can be used".  Actually I have seen many commercials for birth control pills and I've never heard the selling point used of "preventing ovarian cysts". Seems to me the companies producing them are ignoring a strong selling point then.  I'd like to see the figures, for curiosity sake, of what percentage of women in general get ovarian cysts and what persentage of those are/are not on birth control. If it were a big percentage and a big percentage of the relationship between the two, it would lend a lot of credence to that argument. Since you have introduced that argument into this thread, perhaps you could check it out.  

Be that as it may, the question would be...who pays for this preventitive treatment? We all need vitamins for healthy lives. If there are students who cannot afford a monthly supply of vitamins while attending their 50,000 a year college, should the college provide them, too? SInce prophylactics can prevent VD, shouldn't the males get them for free, too? If you have ever seen cases of gonorrhea or syplilus, you know how destructful they are, so shouldn't the rubbers be provided as a preventative measure? Students walking from classroom to classroom outside are exposed to the sun's strong ultraviolet rays which can lead to skin cancer. Should we pay for sunblock for them all?

This can be carried to the point of lunacy, Bob. At some point, individual responsibility has to come into play. Medical plans cannot cover every "what if" type of coverage. If I need a product which I believe is vital to prevent ovarian cysts (being a woman, of course), I would get it. The fact that it would also allow me to have worry-free sex would just be a nice by-product of it.

This woman is just one voice of the millions out there who join in the same mantra...."I can't afford it - YOU provide it!" ( I would love to have a peek inside her closet to see her clothing lines or know what kind of car she drives or how many times she eats out or drinks with the "girls").  In this particular instance, Democrats are eager to use her as the foil to coax more cash out of their supporters and liberals in general use it to wag the finger at the unfeeling, uncaring Republican rascals.
THAT'S why I feel my comments are not off-topic, Bob.
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By the way, with regards to the necessity of contraceptives, perhaps you missed my link to all the ways women can get them free of charge. Address that, please?
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quote:

Yes, Bob, that is the headline of your thread but I replied to what you posted introducing the thread.

RUDE ATTACKS ON WOMEN - You posted the letter lambasting Limbaugh for doing such. I showed that it was nothing more than political fodder and gave an example of another rude attack on a woman that neither you, Obama or the DNC had anything derogatory to say to prove that point.



     Mr. Limbaugh carried out a  verbal assault of sexual allegation against a Specific woman Mr. Limbaughs sole apparent knowledge was that she wished to testify in front of a senate committee of five Republican Men investigating womens health issues, birth control and abortion.  They did not wish her to testify.

     Rather than actually hear that testimony, Mr. Limbaugh is what the Republican response became.  Mr. Limbaugh has functioned as the frontrunner for Republican social policy for the last twenty years, and if there has been any massive disagreement about that from anybody in the Republican Party, I have yet to see it or hear about it.

     I was very clear about how I felt about the cynical way that I feel the Democrats use attacks on women to gain points and dollars for the Democratic party.  It is still up there is my last posting.  And it is the reason that I mentioned both parties in the introduction.

     What the Republicans are doing is much much much more than political fodder, however, and they need to be held responsible.  Calling Ms. Fluke a prostitute because she advocated for birth control rights is like swatting a fly with an H-bomb, but it is not only Mr. Limbaughs approach to dealing with women.  Mr. Limbaugh didnt simply call Ms. Fluke a prostitute, he went into a fair amount of detail about how Ms. Fluke was asking him to pay for her birth control and how that gave him certain rights and privileges.

     I heard you say that Mr. Limbaugh ought to apologize for calling Ms. Fluke a slut.  The rest of Mr. Limbaughs comments were even worse.

     At what point do any of Mr. Limbaughs funds get Mixed up with any of Georgetowns funds?  If by some wacky turn of fortune that did happen, at what point does that mean that Mr. Limbaugh has a right to make comments like that about a woman he doesnt even know?

     Any health service in any university that I know, and there have been several, is paid for by student fees.  Students pays for student health in conjunction with funds from the endowment, usually.  It sounds to me as if Mr. Limbaugh may have been going back on the Oxy again, because his thinking is pretty muddled, and he thinks that he has unlimited sexual rights over an unlimited number of women.  This is a particularly ugly fantasy, and he could get in a lot of trouble if he doesnt get a reality check and make sure his behavior is kept very far away from his fantasy life.  

     And the outburst of attempted sexual domination directed at women has not been limited to Mr. Limbaugh this week.  More has it been limited to five Republican men trying to keep women from, talking about womens health care in from of the senate.  Youd think this would be bad enough.

     There is the current legislation in front of the Virginia legislature that mandates  vaginal ultrasounds for women who want to have abortions in that state.  It doesnt matter that their physicians may not believe them necessary.  Nor does it matter that other forms of ultrasound would give as much information.  What matters is that this is what The Republican Party wants, and as the majority party now in Virginia, this is exactly the way that The Republican Party is going to treat women.  Not only that, but its going to do so as an unpaid mandate, which Republicans are absolutely against unless they feel they can use it as something punitive.  This is what theyre doing here.

     This, of course, follows on the heels of the same law already having been passed and now being enforced in Texas.

     The same law is already winding its way through the legislature in Pennsylvania.

     Suggesting that this is a political football the Democrats have thrown is disingenuous at best.  The Republicans are essentially declaring what appears to be all-out war on the rights of women and on womens health and on womens right to choose what to do with their bodies.  

     Suggesting that its a fight that the Democrats shouldnt welcome, on the other hand, is another thing entirely.  Theyre in much better shape and on much more solid ground here than they are, in my opinion, about the economy, which still seems pretty shaky, whereas at least half the population are women, and whether or not they happen to believe in abortion, they will still have significant feelings about birth control and womens health issues in general.  Thats, I believe, as a whole.  Democrats, Republicans and independents.  There are going to have been women voters whove been victims of rape or of sexual bullying who are going to watch whats been going on here with a great deal of interest.

     No matter how upset women may be about abortion, it takes a special kind of  twisted thinking to really push for state sponsored sodomy with a medical instrument as a solution to reduce the incidence of abortions in this country.  And make no mistake about it, there will be a fair number of women who will think about these laws in that way; and think of the sort of people who push them into law as being little more than political rapists.

     Where do they get the people who come up with this kind of thinking?

quote:

but because Mr. Limbaugh actually does seem to be speaking for so many of the folks on the Right

Mr. Limbaugh speaks for himself, as he always does, as does Maddow, Obermann and the rest of their profession.You show a comment by Romney, and cover your base with a "Whether or not he actually said them".You show a comment by Santorum and cover with "If Senator Santorum actually said that...".What Romney is proported to have said is that he did NOT agree with Limbaugh's terminology (IF he actually said that). I challenged your statement tha Rush speaks for "so many people on the right". How many people is "so many", Bob?



     Ah, Ive been too circumspect.

     As many as it takes to pay his salary, Mike.

     Some of his fellows stepped a bit too far over the line and despite the loyalty of their audiences, they couldnt get enough of the right folks to fork out the dough.  That many.  Certainly no less, because I dont think stations would carry him for free.

quote:

I wonder what percentage of even Catholic women believe that Mr. Santorum is speaking for them or is even speaking in their best interests.WOndering means you don't know, so I wonder why you even made the comment. Personally, I wonder what percentage of Catholic women believe that Pelosi is speaking for them.



     I dont know that, either.

     The figure that I do see quoted is that roughly 95% or more of Catholic women have used birth control over their lifetime, so that those women have certainly had reservations about Mr. Santorums position from time to time, though many of them may agree with a lot of what hes saying.  You might do your own research and try to figure out what percentage of women in Ms. Pelosis district support her re-election campaigns.  Lot of Italians in San Francisco, and there are a fair number of fairly liberal catholics among them.  I suspect there care enough who vote for her to help her get re-elected more often than not.

quote:

That is, Birth Control pills can be used to treat things other than the possibility of getting pregnant; and the growth of ovarian cysts is one of those things that birth control pills are authorized to treat.The pills were supposed to be used in this case to control the spread of ovarian cysts.

Again, the qualitative "can be used".Actually I have seen many commercials for birth control pills and I've never heard the selling point used of "preventing ovarian cysts". Seems to me the companies producing them are ignoring a strong selling point then.I'd like to see the figures, for curiosity sake, of what percentage of women in general get ovarian cysts and what percentage of those are/are not on birth control. If it were a big percentage and a big percentage of the relationship between the two, it would lend a lot of credence to that argument. Since you have introduced that argument into this thread, perhaps you could check it out.




     The folks at the New York Times by chance have prepared a nifty little civilian guide for a discussion about ovarian cysts in todays paper.  The cysts were frequent enough for me to know about, since Ive dated a number of women whove had that issue over the years, and some of them have been treated with Birth control pills.  The frequency, I dont know, but its something that gynecologists have to deal with a lot.  Ive known some gynecologists.
http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/ovarian-cysts/overview.html


quote:

Be that as it may, the question would be...who pays for this preventative treatment? We all need vitamins for healthy lives. If there are students who cannot afford a monthly supply of vitamins while attending their 50,000 a year college, should the college provide them, too? SInce prophylactics can prevent VD, shouldn't the males get them for free, too? If you have ever seen cases of gonorrhea or syphilis, you know how destructful they are, so shouldn't the rubbers be provided as a preventative measure? Students walking from classroom to classroom outside are exposed to the sun's strong ultraviolet rays which can lead to skin cancer. Should we pay for sunblock for them all?



     Depends, doesnt it?

     This is where research comes in, doesnt it.  A bunch of good research can answer questions like these ones youre asking with actual solid and financially useful information.  Good research can help us save money, and should be an important part of any medical system.  

     The way you set your questions out makes them sound slightly sarcastic, as if, pfui, any doofus would know x, y, or z would be true.  But I think it depends on which doofus youre asking.  About vitamins, the best research Im aware of is that for college age kids, theyd do better to eat three good meals a day, and that taking a vitamin is probably a waste of money without an evaluation that shows they actually have some specific vitamin need.  So the vitamin answer is probably, its a waste.

     Prophylactics, I think everybody should have a free supply of them.  Its a good deal for the country.  It cuts down on some really ugly major illnesses that are very e, and it cuts down on some stds that are very difficult to treat these days and which can be  expensive to treat further down the line, like aids.  They cut down on stds that do a lot of damage to fertility later on and which contribute to the rise in the number of other expensive procedures, such as in vitro or in vivo fertilization and the like.  Free condoms not popular on the Right, but probably a good investment in terms of money spent overall.

quote:


This can be carried to the point of lunacy, Bob. At some point, individual responsibility has to come into play. Medical plans cannot cover every "what if" type of coverage. If I need a product which I believe is vital to prevent ovarian cysts (being a woman, of course), I would get it. The fact that it would also allow me to have worry-free sex would just be a nice by-product of it.



     All medicines have risk, including birth control pills.  If a woman is only using birth control pills, for birth control, shes a very trusting woman.  There are stds out there, and at least in the beginning, any woman she be asking a new partner to use a condom.

     Medical plans cannot be asked to cover everything.  They can and should be asked to cover common problems.  Thats what theyre for.  Simply because you havent heard of ovarian cysts doesnt mean they arent common.  

     If you think theres such a thing as worry-free sex, please tell me where youre buying whatever youre drinking.  And if you think there are loads of women who are having worry-free sex, I guess I wish Id know them when I was single.  All the women I knew at that time were very worried about relationships, the state of ours in particular, and whether or not to take it further; in which directions, when, and whether I was The One.

quote:

This woman is just one voice of the millions out there who join in the same mantra...."I can't afford it - YOU provide it!" ( I would love to have a peek inside her closet to see her clothing lines or know what kind of car she drives or how many times she eats out or drinks with the "girls").In this particular instance, Democrats are eager to use her as the foil to coax more cash out of their supporters and liberals in general use it to wag the finger at the unfeeling, uncaring Republican rascals.
THAT'S why I feel my comments are not off-topic, Bob.



     Well, actually, I dont know what the womans plan was supposed to cover, Mike.

     I dont know if you do or not, but the assumption that because  the woman was having ovarian cysts meant that she was also having sex is not a valid one.  And the ovarian cysts did deserve treatment; and the health service was the provider of recorder.  Failure to treat was the wrong thing to do; they already had money set aside for treatment of student problems, and if they did not have this one figured into their algorithm, they should have changed the algorithm.  This is one of the illnesses that women get and when you plan for health issues, you are remiss unless you plan for this one.  Its like failing to plan for students getting asthma.

     Of course, they may simply be incompetent to educate women, and their doctors might be incompetent to treat them, in which case somebody ought to consider bringing any further cases before the board of licensure in medicine, and getting the doctors in question licenses lifted.  


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     I did miss that link.

     Where is it?     What would you like me to address?

  
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The figure that I do see quoted is that roughly 95% or more of Catholic women have used birth control over their lifetime

Then you need to look past the figures, Bob. Check out the parameters of the people who were chosen to be part of the survey. I can assure you  that you will be surprised. I would tell you but since you were the one to bring the survey up, the onus is on you.

Ovarian cysts occur commonly in women of all ages. Some women with ovarian cysts have pain or pelvic pressure, while others have no symptoms. Irregular menstrual periods are not usually related to an ovarian cyst.
Fortunately, most ovarian cysts do not require surgical removal and are not caused by cancer. Cysts can vary in size from less than one centimeter (one-half inch) to greater than 10 centimeters (4 inches).
The most common causes of ovarian cysts depend upon whether you are still having menstrual periods (premenopausal) or have stopped menstruating for at least one year (postmenopausal).

http://www.uptodate.com/contents/patient-information-ovarian-cysts-beyond-the-basics


Suggesting that it s a fight that the Democrats shouldn t welcome, on the other hand, is another thing entirely.  They re in much better shape and on much more solid ground here than they are, in my opinion, about the economy, which still seems pretty shaky,

..and there you have the reason for this crusade. Democrats need something to take the attention away from the economy. Limbaugh's remarks and Ms. Fluke are the flavors of the day.

The link is in response #3. My question is why Ms. Fluke or anyone else demanding free contraceptives don't just go and get them for free. She claims she can't afford them and yet they are available for free.  If she feels her health is so threatened without them, why not just go get them? The fact that they are freely available makes her position little more than grandstanding.

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quote:

The figure that I do see quoted is that roughly 95% or more of Catholic women have used birth control over their lifetime

Then you need to look past the figures, Bob. Check out the parameters of the people who were chosen to be part of the survey. I can assure youthat you will be surprised. I would tell you but since you were the one to bring the survey up, the onus is on you.



     I agree with you

     The figure I saw quoted was from widely quoted report details below that says that the number of  Catholic women using birth-control over their lifetime was 98%, not 95%.  

     Michelle Bauman, writing for the source below, ewtnnews.com/catholic-news, disputes this claim by  quoting the Washington Post fact checker, Glenn Kessler.  

    http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/US.php?id=4904

    Mr. Kesslers article appeared in the February 18th edition of the Post.  I found this copy of Mr. Kesslers article, and have included the link for your follow up pleasure:
http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/312389/how-many-catholic-women-have-really-used-contraception?page=0,0

     Mr. Kessler noted that there were problems in the medias translation of data from the original article to general dissemination.  The survey was of women who identified themselves as Catholics between the ages of 15 and 44.  Indeed, most of the women who identified themselves as having had sexual experience had used methods of birth control that did not fall onto the acceptable list according to Catholic doctrine.  11 percent, however, of the women surveyed had never been sexually active, which certainly threw the figures off.  And the figures involved were of women with some sexual experience (once was enough to count) and were between those two particular ages.

     In other words, the reportage was wrong enough to to have earned two pinnochios for sloppiness and for the the Catholic Church to want to write an article about it, and it was right enough that that the Catholic Church is not building any large ad campaign about  how their women feel about their stance on womens rights.

     Id go so far as to say that most of the Catholic women whove been sexually active have in fact used birth control of a non-approved kind or we would be looking at a much larger population of Catholics.  

     When I lived in Montreal in the late sixties and my dad was teaching at Sir George Williams University, there was a lot of anti-catholic feeling going around among The English, Canadians who were native english rather than native french speakers.  There was an open revolution going on, and the French were blowing up mail-boxes, among other things.  There was an English-speaking exodus from the City.  Hard-core anti-catholic and anti-French sentiment settled into a very nasty battle of words in addition to the very nasty occasional police clashes going on.  Some of my neighbors were talking about the secret Catholic tactic, which was Victory by the Cradle.

     Indeed, some of the more traditional french families did have ten and more members, with the emphasis on the and more.

     If our American Catholic families were in fact as traditional as those old Habitant families in Quebec, thats what wed be dealing with on a regular basis here today.  Thats what happens when Catholic doctrine is followed without question or, for that matter, orthodox Jewish doctrine, which is not much different about birth control.  If you want to ask whether or not these traditional religious groups are using birth control, you can get the answer fairly simply; and thats by looking at the size of the families that theyre raising.

     If theyre not huge, theyre using artificial means of birth control.  Rhythm needs an awful lot of attention to work that well.    
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quote:
My question is why Ms. Fluke or anyone else demanding free contraceptives don't just go and get them for free. She claims she can't afford them and yet they are available for free. If she feels her health is so threatened without them, why not just go get them? The fact that they are freely available makes her position little more than grandstanding.


By 'free' Mike I presume you mean 'paid for by taxpayers'?

What you seem to be suggesting is that, rather than including contraceptives in health care policies, paid for by the policyholders, you'd rather redistribute the costs by expanding government involvement in private health care and paying for it out of tax revenue.

That's very 'Liberal' of you Mike.

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     I had a look at the letter you quote and which you wanted me to respond to.

     I am glad that you seem to be extending your thinking about birth control and its availability, and you should be acknowledged and congratulated for that.  

     The fact that the letter is dated 2008, and that it makes reference to planned parenthood programs  running in what appears to be conjunction with Health and Human Services programs reminds me of a time when the Republicans were being much more reasonable about the whole business, and where the Republicans had not yet begun to attack Planned Parenthood and its programs for helping people who wanted help with birth control and with preventing the spread of std's.  It was what I think of as being a much more reasonable time, and a time when the Republican party was thinking much more clearly about what was good for not only the country as a whole, but presumably for a good half of its constituency as well.

     I think that the position back then was much healthier, and I think you are quite right to point this out to me.  I should have been at much greater pains to point out that not everybody in the Republican party has a history of acting strangely on this issue.  Sadly, the Religious Right seems to be running things now.  They have attacked Planned Parenthood for doing exactly the sort of work that you seem to be suggesting they could still be doing, weren't their funding under attack by the Religious Right and by those Republicans who seem to be doing their legislative bidding in the senate and in congress.  I think this is short sighted.

     Ultimately it is against the interests of The Republican Party as I know it in my opinion though in the interests of a groups of radical Right Wing extremists who seem to be attacking some of the basic rights women have managed to achieve during the last hundred years or so.  Forcing women to have mandated vaginal probes as an unpaid mandate, for example, seems to go against everything that the Republican Party I grew up with would have supported, and I think that it  damages the Party a great deal at the same time that it damages the rights of women:  ıad for women, Bad for Womens Health and bad in the long run for The Republican Party.  

     But back to the question of Free Birth Control.  

     It perhaps passed under your radar that not only was the time frame of the letter in question four years out of date, but also the institution involved appears to be carrying the Colombia University letterhead, and the letter references New York State, where the funding sources are frequently different from those in the District of Colombia.

     The Governmental agency that runs the funding in the District of Colombia is The Congress, which has been firmly under Republican control for a while now.  

     Since you did bring the subject up, perhaps you would do the honors of doing the research?   As you pointed out above, those who bring up a subject do obligate themselves to do the research, right? and check out whether you are in fact correct about whats going on today; whether there are such resources in the District of Colombia available for free right now as you implied there were, instead of four years ago;  and of course in The District of Colombia, specifically,  which you mistakenly believed to be New York City.  Both venues believe they are in fact substantially different places.

     I would like to thank you very much for bringing the subject up.
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.


"The whole thing is about a girl wanting to have safe sex being paid for by someone else. That's the whole thing....and that's what makes it so laughable"


Did she want safe sex Mike, or sex without a
natural consequence, (which in generic form as I understand
it costs about $20 a month)?   Dont group pregnancy with
gonorrhea.


.
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Fair enough, Bob. I will do the research.

John, I don't know and I really don't know where her $3,000.000 yearly price tag comes from.

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quote:
I really don't know where her $3,000.000 yearly price tag comes from.


It probably comes from the testimony Sandra Fluke gave where she said that it could cost students up to $3000 for contraceptives.

Limbaugh, being either an ignoramus or more likely hoping to paint his target in the worst possible light, decided that she meant $3000 a year. He walked that back and conceded that she probably meant $3000 for the total cost while at Law School or University and generously divided that by 3 years claiming it was $1000 a year.

The fact that it takes 7 years, on average, to get through law school doesn't seem to matter to some folk.

.
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Actually, I believe she said it could cost HER 3000. That comes down to over 12 years...quite a college odyssey.

A latte once a week at her local Starbucks would cost more.
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That's the thing about costs Mike, people choose the figure that lends more credence to their argument, you select the lowest and the other side selects the highest.
I did some research and the contraceptive pill ranges in cost from $160 a year to $600 a year depending on the brand and chemical composition. Unfortunately some women have nasty side effects from the cheaper varieties, is Sandra Fluke one of those? I've honestly no idea, but I'm willing to give her a pass on her suggestion that she pays $429 a year based on the fact that if she isn't there are probably plenty of students out there who are.

Personally I don't think contraceptives should be included in standard health insurance anymore than I believe that  toothpaste, which is slightly further down the slippery slope of preventative medicine, should be. My argument doesn't rely on how much toothpaste costs or whether you can get free toothpaste or whether someone claims to spend a thousand bucks a year on toothpaste the fixation on all those points is immaterial to the argument.

The same goes for contraceptives.

 
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