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Passions in Poetry

Bereavement

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Falling rain
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0 posted 06-27-2011 05:36 PM       View Profile for Falling rain   Email Falling rain   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Falling rain's Home Page   View IP for Falling rain

Is feeling guilty after someone commits suicide a step in the grieving process or is it a self destructive way to purge yourself?
serenity blaze
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1 posted 06-27-2011 06:18 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I am hoping someone shows up with a good answer to this question.

Just thinking about this one makes me cry, since I've such a strong leaning toward survivor guilt myself, and I am definitely self-destructive--no matter how much any one thinks they might hate me, it can't compare to the amount of self-loathing and self-abuse I have heaped upon myself...
Brad
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2 posted 06-27-2011 06:53 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

It's certainly natural.  Two years ago, I can't think of one person close to Jin Soon who didn't go through that.  There was also denial and at least one attempt to blame the Korean mafia (I'm not kidding).

Isn't that the reason we do suicide watches?

Of course we can't stay there.  If we do, isn't our guilt becoming more important than the person we feel guilty about?

At the same time, I still have memory flashes.  I probably always will.  
serenity blaze
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3 posted 06-27-2011 08:03 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

This is just so hard to think about...

Second-guessing the past is futility?

But who doesn't think, "I wish I'd done more" or been a better friend--why didn't I sense something?

It's all so obvious in retrospect.

This is too soon for me, I think. What I know now about loss is that when people say it takes time, they don't mean that you'll get over it, but the brain has to process it.

I can still see my friend on the porch, and it's startling to forget what happened and each time you see someone who is not there it's all fresh pain.

I'm afraid this topic isn't in my emotional budget today. It's too soon...
Falling rain
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4 posted 06-27-2011 08:41 PM       View Profile for Falling rain   Email Falling rain   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Falling rain's Home Page   View IP for Falling rain

I'm not forcing you to answer Serenity, but I appreciate the attempt and your answer. I'll be wishing my happiest thoughts towards you.

A friend of a friend killed himself about a month ago. His boyfriend is feeling ultimate grief and guilt over the whole thing. Being a third party person/close friend I can't help but watch my friend corrode away under the self destructive guilt over his boyfriends death. I wonder if this guilt is something he has developed in order to justify his boyfriends death or it's something I don't have yet reason to explain it all.

Reasons have been rattling my head nonstop trying to figure out this problem. Thus my reason coming here.
serenity blaze
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5 posted 06-27-2011 09:29 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

It's not your fault.

I was totally unaware I'd tank out emotionally on this one.

"It's not your fault."

Four words that can make me cry, too.

Not sure that I have any answers to give on this one, but perhaps, just like I was totally unaware that this was still too tender, maybe, just maybe we can suppose the same of my friend, and your friend's friend.

I didn't mean to sound cold by saying "it's not in my emotional budget"--that is just a little tool I use to avoid a potentially severe reaction to things I know that I can't deal with yet.

I hope the best for you--your questions always seem to come from a caring and compassionate place.

But now the sun has gone down, so I can call it a day. Pretty soon I'll call it a night.

On days we can't be strong, for me it is enough to be ...still.

Bob K
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6 posted 06-29-2011 03:47 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     How important and how powerful are you willing to believe yourself to be?

     Are you more powerful and important than the boyfriend?  Are you more powerful and important than this guy's concern with his own pain?  Was his pain that trivial?  Are you more important and powerful than the man's drive toward life and survival?

     It may be that you are any and perhaps all of these things, but the more likely answer is that you wish you were more important to the guy than he was to himself.  

     At that point, what were you going to do with him?

     He needed somebody at every moment of every day to edege him into being able to caring for himself.  Your attention is not well developed enough for that, though you may wish it were.  You can't even concentrate on one thing for an hour, if you're like most people.

     If you're going to concentrate on one thing for an hour, and that one thing is going to help you and the other people around you, learn to concentrate on your tummy.  Learn to notice if it is rising or falling.  Notice when you inhale, that it is rising, and then say in your mind, "rising."  Notice when it is falling that you are exhaling, and say silently in you mind, "falling."

     If you are starting to think about your friend's suicide, say to yourself, "whoops," and gently bring your attention back to your breathing.  Don't do more than about an hour of this a day.

     If you're thinking about your friend's suicide, you might say to yourself "thinking" or something of the sort, to let yourself know that you're really not taking care of business.  Your business is to make your mind work in an orderly straightforward fashion.  You already know you aren't powerful enough to bring your friend back.  You already know that you did what you could to deal with your friend while he was here.  If you want to learn how to do more, then you must learn how to make you mind work in a concentrated and orderly fashion.  This is the place to start.

     If you are sad, then you are sad.  Notice your sadness and then get back to your breathing while you are meditating.  First things first.  Do your laundry when it's time for laundry.  Make sure the dishes are clean.  Sweep the floors.  First you eat, then you sleep.  Work when you need to work, and love the people that you love.  Sadness comes and goes, but self torture is something that is not necessary.  Sadness is difficult enough.  Why substitute when sadness is so unique and natural.  We don't have to hold on to it; it will come again, and not always predictably.

     That is why it is so difficult to give up self-torture.
Falling rain
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7 posted 07-01-2011 02:39 PM       View Profile for Falling rain   Email Falling rain   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Falling rain's Home Page   View IP for Falling rain

Serenity:
  I appreciate that, but truth is that not always is it compassion that is the force that drives people to answers. Some times I'm just curious to know.

Bob K:
  Rhetoric's never sat well with me especially when they don't apply towards me. I've already known how hard it is to give up self torture. I had to live with major depression for years. I tortured myself with my own sorrow. I have yet to understand guilt; thus the question above. Although I must thank you for breaking it all down to understandable terms.
Bob K
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8 posted 07-02-2011 01:23 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

Is feeling guilty after someone commits suicide a step in the grieving process or is it a self destructive way to purge yourself?



     Let's talk about guilty feelings that come up as a result of suicides.  Sometimes, even if you're a guy with a long term depression, there a solid piece of health involved.  You tend to think of yourself as being ill and down a lot, but there's another side that's well worth thinking about.

     I've noticed that when people feel guilty about suicides and it's part of a healthy response, then the feeling of guilt is almost always a part of a complex set of other responses.  One of these that I've noticed frequently is rage-at-th- jerk-who-was-rotten-enough-to-kill-themselves-and-make-me-feel-this-way.  Another is an occasional feeling of profound relief or even happiness or light-heartedness that all-that-is-over.

     Few people kill themselves before making everybody around them suffer a great deal first.  Such guilt that comes can often be about the relief that one feels about the torment the suicidal person put them through.  

     I've felt and still feel this way about suicides I've known and liked.  I still feel guilty about how angry I am at them because of what a part of me feels they've done to me.  And they have.  Make no mistake about it, even if they're very ill.  Suicide is a terrible thing to do to anybody, and one of the worst things about it happens to be the feelings that the suicide leaves behind in the people that c0ould have been resources that might have kept him or her alive in the first place.

     I have felt like killing suicides that I have cried about, and those feelings have stayed with me for years.  It's a very important task to learn how to handle mixed feelings about folks like this, and to learn how to accept yourself for having them.  The guilt and the rage are nevertheless natural.

     Perhaps you have some thoughts about these thoughts of mine?


Falling rain
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9 posted 07-02-2011 05:13 PM       View Profile for Falling rain   Email Falling rain   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Falling rain's Home Page   View IP for Falling rain

I've had it where I have urged a person into giving up their harmful ways, but they couldn't handle that pressure.. They committed suicide. I feel that it was all my fault.

Of course I would start thinking, "What could I have done to change it?" I've come to realize this question is futile, but it's similar questions to that have filled my head. I know they serve little purpose, but I feel compelled to thinking them and finding a way to blame myself.

Part of me thinks this is all part of "the process." Another part of me doubts this. I begin to wonder, why exactly am I feeling guilty? Is there a purpose in feeling guilty? So far it's only hurting myself. Rationally I would think that if it's not beneficial, than why do it?
Falling rain
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10 posted 07-02-2011 05:15 PM       View Profile for Falling rain   Email Falling rain   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Falling rain's Home Page   View IP for Falling rain

I've had it where I have urged a person into giving up their harmful ways, but they couldn't handle that pressure.. They committed suicide. I feel that it was all my fault.

Of course I would start thinking, "What could I have done to change it?" I've come to realize this question is futile, but it's similar questions to that have filled my head. I know they serve little purpose, but I feel compelled to thinking them and finding a way to blame myself.

Part of me thinks this is all part of "the process." Another part of me doubts this. I begin to wonder, why exactly am I feeling guilty? Is there a purpose in feeling guilty? So far it's only hurting myself. Rationally I would think that if it's not beneficial, than why do it?
 
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