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Philosophy 101
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A Tale
| Philosophy 101 |
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A Tale |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I own a piece of land with a burn running through it, wooded slopes and meadows. For some years now I've invited local people on a purely voluntary basis to recreate there, to picnic, trout fish, watch the local badgers and birds, and, if the mood takes them, to contribute a little by improving the paths and bridges, and to help with the brush cutting and tree thinning in the winter. They seem to have enjoyed themselves over the years, and although not all behave precisely as I would like, even to the point where I have had to spend some time admonishing them for leaving litter or making undue noise, in general they have made the place a more vibrant and lively location. Tomorrow night, without warning or discussion, without consultation or explanation, without even a chance for them to collect the various little contributions they have made - a cute sculpture of a squirrel, a brushwood witches broom and hat, a carved picnic log, a woven willow bird hide, two silver birch hollowed nest boxes, and much more - I am going to slam shut the gate and padlock it. The recreational resource will quite simply disappear overnight. I have consulted my lawyer, I own the site, I can do what I like. Yet in the early hours as I lay awake I had pangs of conscience. Legally in the right maybe, but morally? What sort of a person have I become that I would take this action I wondered. And in the morning I resolved to ask my friends in my moral philosophy group what they thought. Does legal ownership absolve one of a moral duty in a case like this? Is there, indeed, any moral duty? If so, how far does it extend? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Well that is a lovely side of you, moonbeam. It sounds wonderful. It's fortunate indeed that your generosity isn't impinged upon by activities of a more sordid type. I don't know that I could be so generous. I would worry about the legal responsibility, and it would annoy me to no end to have to keep paying code enforcement fines, and? I'd worry about other stuff too. Like safety. I mean, there might be bodies buried out there...  Seriously, though, it would be a sad day if you had to put up a fence because people started using what sounds like a lovely place to dump their trash. There are people who ruin things for everybody.  |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Humm, yes a sad day indeed Karen. And so out of character for a lovely generous person to slam shut a gate like that. I must be getting grouchy in my old age. But do you think I have a MORAL responsibility to keep it open, or at least to give everyone fair warning, to maybe start a debate, to allow them time to remove their artefacts. Or does ownership confer on me a kind of godlike status which enables me to ride roughshod over everyone else's feelings and "rights" and do what the heck I want when I want? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Hmmm. Did you know I actually have my own website? I do. I'm never there. My sister and vlraynes runs the place. Artistic Stylings of Twisted Serenity. (My sister's pen name is "Twist".) But I tell ya, and a number of people will back me up on it--if she finds something offensive, she just removes it. No warning. No admonition. If a member gets stubborn and puts it back, she removes THEM. She doesn't explain, nor does she apologize. Her reasoning is that if people want to practice their rights to free speech, they should feel free to go ahead and make their own site/blog/whatever. Her reasoning is that it is HER name on it, and she has the right to maintain a dignified website. (And yes, she knows me very well, and yes, she has edited ME.) She is a pretty talented web designer, and she wants something she can point to with pride as an example of her work. (I told her it was kind of a mistake to invite writers. *chuckle*) And I know I have fought a long hard fight about language and such, but the truth is, I actually agree with her now. She went to the trouble to make the site, and all of our offerings are a cumulative statement with HER name on it. So she reserves the right to edit. On a whim. And I reserve the right to post only the most selective poems of mine, although Nan once told me that with me it doesn't matter so much because no one ever knows what I'm talking about anyway. *grin* (That was a long time ago, Nanners, and I think they are on to me now.) Yep. There's some cantankerous folks out there. So. Y'wanna meet my seeeeeester?  She can probably beat ya at arm wrestling too. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Yes, and if I find a pile of dog stuff I remove it. Or a kid that bark ringed a tree I ban him. If I find a group who want to barbecue I reason with them, point out the fire risk, discuss, warn, then maybe be bar them - after I've politely told them I am going to do so. If anyone complains I then I hope have the grace and good manners to take the time to explain to them why I took the action I took. But then I'm just an angel  I guess.Perhaps most people would just ban lock and run over the horizon. Perhaps indeed that is after all the right and moral thing to do. Humm. ........ So basically what you are saying is that your sister would approve of me closing down the woods instantly with no explanation and no apology - just because I CAN!! I wonder if that's because she knows it's wrong and doesn't care (maybe morally reprehensible). Or because she thinks it's ok to do that (maybe morally bankrupt). So confusing! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Okay. I'll tell you about another friend of mine. She was totally fine with her husband staying home as a "househusband" while she sorked, but sadly, as the story goes, he didn't really pay much attention to their daughter and he was very messy. So one day, after a long day at work, after many weeks of reasoning with him, she took one look at the sink full of dishes and calmly threw them all in the garbage. Then she took that garbage out and bought paper plates. You'd think the guy would have got the message. But nooooooooooooooo.... The guy couldn't even manage to throw the paper plates away. So she p;icked up all those paper disks and put the garbage out promptly went to the store. She purchased exactly three plastic plates and a sharpie. She wrote their names on them. She went home to their double wide trailer, handed him his plate and went and lockedc her plate along with her daughter's in her room. This move effectively divided their home in to two warring camps. She had an actual invisablie line that he couldn't cross. This whole sad story ended up in divorce, all because people who share commmon areas should share the responsibilty of cleaning that area. (That's such a basic rule that even I know it.) If it's left to one person, you get what ya get. Yep I say Menopausal women would make a very effective army. Menopausal women and...Ron. *lmao* He totally "gets" women yanno.  |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
What you need Moon is effective land management, a volunteer gamekeeper or two would sort out your problem in pretty short order and give you some peace of mind to boot. If you do decide to go down the volunteer gamekeeper route, remember the old adage that the best gamekeepers are ex- poachers. Why not ask a couple of the more responsible folk who use the land if they fancy doing the job. Anyhow that's my two pence worth, sorry it wasn't longer but I'm a little busy - I've got to nip out to check the ferrets and fix my long net and those pheasant aren't going to pluck themselves.  |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: ~looks around~ He sure does! I rest my case m'lud. quote: Yeah yeah I know Grinch ~sigh~ and believe me I've tried it. But yanno, each time they started thinking for themselves or using initiative I felt kinda threatened and ended up chopping their balls off. Now women gamekeepers ... hummm there's a thought ... humm, malleable, easily charmed, capable of direct aggression, no testosterone ... now why didn't I think of that before ... .... But we stray from my original questions. Would I be morally right or wrong? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Your decision would be morally neutral. You aren't infringing on the rights of the visitors to your land because they don't actually have any. You could tell them of your intention but you aren't obligated to, in fact if you've raised your concerns in the past and barring entry has been discussed you could even argue that you have notified them. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Moonbeam? I'm sorry if I came off flippantly unsympathetic. I understand mourning something that ain't there no more. I do.  |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karen Hugs right back at you gal - really I am totally ok with all you said, not flippant at all. And even if you were, tongue in cheek was what this thread was all about really. And no I certainly don't mourn the loss. I do however deplore the methodology! Grinch quote: ~deja vu~ lol Well, perhaps we differ on that point a little. No question that no legal rights pertain, but I tend to think that are "moral rights" - and certainly there is the more universal "right" to expect to be treated in a "humane/human" way. I think perhaps I'll post a small notice of my intention, the date it will be operative, and some reasons for my decision. That I feel is the minimum any decent person should do. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
But what about Uncle Lumpkin’s cute little hand carved squirrel sculpture and the other items? They were personal property, handcrafted treasures put there to be shared with fellow picnickers and bird watchers on moonbeam’s little slice of paradise, not to be converted to his personal property as they will be when the gate’s slammed shut and the padlock’s put in place? Isn’t that a form of stealing and isn’t stealing morally wrong? Isn’t it usually the case that the evicted are allowed to claim their personal property, and it’s up to the landlord to sue for back rent, damages and such rather than withholding the evictees personal property? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Jenn? That is exactly the loss I was talking about. That is exactly what made me look for an archive--er, if that's what we're talking about here without talking about it here. for THAT, I mourn. *hugs* I'm relieved to not have to look at my own outbursts though. But I can't say I didn't have moments, especially after Katrina, that I wasn't genuinely hurt to read some things. Feel free to e mail me anytime, k? You've recommended some fine reading to me, and I did take for granted that those recommendations would always be there. IF that's what we're talking about. Love ya, lady. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Uncle Lumpkin only carved the nose Jen, the squirrel was a construction of small parts built as a group effort to fit a particular location and a particular time. I'm pretty sure that given the choice, uncle Lumpkin wouldn't want the nose returned to him, I mean what can you do with a squirrels nose. Uncle Lumpkin would be better off looking for a new field where squirrel carving is more readily accepted. I hear that farmer Algonquin has a corner of a quiet field that's fairly flat, if someone were to whittle a couple of squirrel parts over there I don't think he'd mind. |
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Alison
since 2008-01-27
Posts 9318Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy! |
[Response removed because it did not apply to the intent behind the original question asked] [This message has been edited by Alison (08-23-2010 11:33 AM).] |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Yes, but on the Uncle Lumpkin thing, if you follow Karen's sister's theology you would argue that anything, umm, carved on a post in the woods became the property of the State, er, I mean owner, I mean Me. If Lumpkin had wanted his squirrel's nose he should darned well have anticipated that I might slam shut the door on zero seconds notice and carved himself a copy. So there :P And Alison, hi there! Well I'm glad that the milk of human kindness, common decency and honour is flowing in darkest Alaska anyway. Thanks for that |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Moonbeam? I happen to have the reputation of being "the sweet one" of the family. /  Nod. I just make everybody check their guns at the door... |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I was about to post what Alison quoted... MB, there comes a time when a few bad apples [you were all waiting for this one] will spoil the whole of the barrell. That's what happened, in the proverbial nutshell. We are landowners. We are liable for the foot and rest of the body of whomever traverses our property. From a legally moral standpoint, you are not wrong in knowing its time to quit the "welcome to my open house/property" gift. Upon request of others, we have opened our land, at times, to hunters/gatherers. We had no household/camping site in which they could reside, so there was no problem of that. We did/do have signs up that post "No Trespassing" with all the residual language in smaller print; yet, turkey and deer hunters have been welcome, if we deem them responsible individuals, which usually comes about by personal knowledge. I always voted for the bow and arrow hunter - there was a better than 50/50 chance the trophy would win the race to safety. Also, the few that we did allow within the confines of the hedge trees and barbed wire fences also were good eyes for us - reporting back on lines that needed repair, signs that needed to be replaced, etc. And sometimes we benefitted by their catch. It's all a give and take - and I realize how you feel when something so freely given as your good will has been trampled upon by the bad apples. Leaves a sour taste in your mouth. I think the examples of your willingness to change what was are good ones. Maybe they'll realize sooner than later that there is nothing free...not even a country home.  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Since this is a philosophy forum, let's try doing a little philosophizing. I'll toss out a line I happened to pick up from a movie I saw last night--I forget which one, because I still haven't slept. But a guy, an apparent veteran of some special black ops forces proposed (he was actually pretty adamant about it) but anyhoo, he said: "Absolute freedom is always paid for with the price of oppression in some form." I paraphrased, because I'm tired and my memory sucks, but it doesn't suck so bad that I don't have a vague memory of somebody saying something similar to that in this very forum...or that other one that ain't there no more. But using your idyllic analogy/example, let's suppose that you suddenly get a group of people who's idea of having fun and exercizing their rights of freedom involve, say, carrying weapons and blowing Bambi's mother away? I have some new neighbors since our infamous storm, and they made a living doing that sort of thing in an area that ...well, ain't there no more and now they live here, and ya know what? THEY WILL SHOOT MY CAT. And there's nothing I can do about it. An unleashed, unrestrained animal is a pest and they have the right to rid their property of pests in a reasonable manner. (Pellet guns are allowed, firearms are not.) I happen to know this because damn if someone didn't shoot my cat. And the only thing I can do about it is try to keep kitty indoors, although I suspect the little wise-ass had a key cut in one of his claws. But you do get what I'm saying, right? Your idyllic situation could quickly turn dangerous--lethal even, and if YOU were the only one to keep the peace, and you tried valiantly, I wouldn't blame you one bit for putting up a cement wall. But my question remains: Is that much freedom actually a good thing? We're hearing a lot of talk about freedom, but I have yet to hear anyone address that particular point. (Um, Ron? Feel free to join in anytime. I've got yer back.) *laughing* |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karilea and Karen You are both missing the point. I clearly have the legal right to close up the shop. The moral right strengthens in proportion that I get tired and weary of bad behaviour on my land I suppose, although the subjectivity worries me a little. But however bad the behaviour and however legally and morally justified I might feel myself to be, nothing in my view justifies me descending to the level of the worst of the land vandals and punishing everyone by a high handed, unwarned and unexplained instant chopping of the facility. How much would a simple notice of the impending event have cost me? And how much a short note of explanation afterwards? My place is withering, it grows tired of sameness and repetition, I grow weary with the effort to corral and the unintended result: insipidness. My tolerance level is zero - my manners nearing those of the very people I seek to curtail. Perhaps I am not after all the person to allow diversity into my land. Perhaps a barrier on the gate would have been good - "Moonbeam Clones and Acolytes Only" The sad end to an interesting era. |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
just a question? I suppose this is really a metaphor for the closing of the Alley, after reading in Q&A this morning... and I find it just another way to rant about a place that use to allow all opinions without the attacks that continued on day after day. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Yes Mo, it is. and Moonbeam? Can't you even smile for a bit and not totally get that if YOU are tired of one single thread, imagine how Ron must feel? I don't have time for this thread, either, and I don't have much to, so I can't imagine what goes on in Ron's actual world, because um, I'm pretty sure that Pip isn't the all of it. I've heard he like, WORKS, and has other things to do, too. So yep, good thing it's not MY finger on the button. But I have access to a few. Like the one that makes this cute little kissy face  and the rest of these buttons that can miraculously convey to you, Ron and all of you, sincere gratitude for your time. It's fun. It's enlightening. And it's a microcosm of life in that there are no guarantees. And it's a lot easier than life because in my perception, the consequences are a whole lot less harsh. Ya'll stay smart, k? I love you all. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
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Alison
since 2008-01-27
Posts 9318Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy! |
[original response removed] Nevermind. I didn't get the meaning behind moonbeam's orginal question post and took it for its literal content. God, sometimes these exchanges just make me tired. Alison |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
Well, if someone's actions ruined even one branch in my woods after me extending them an invitation, I would slam the lock on that gate so fast, and wouldn't look back because they are my woods.  If you don't make people accountable for their actions, this world would be a sorry place.I would now be in the possession of a cute sculpture of a squirrel, a brushwood witches broom and hat, a carved picnic log, a woven willow bird hide, two silver birch hollowed nest boxes. Now, should the owners of these items really want that squirrel, witches broom and hat, willow bird hide, and two nesting boxes, (the log will remain mine,) and approach my door with the intentions of a sincere apology, and offer to negotiate some terms, I may just think about a trial opening of the gate. Sadly though, in my life anyway, I have learned if someone tells me who they are, I believe them. I have a lot of experience with that one! So, if even one incident happened after I re-opened the woods, I believe it would be locked forever, and I would hire someone to clear it. There is my theory on your "tale." |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: Why am I not surprised |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I've got another story regarding neighbors and woods from when I lived in that other house. That shouldn't surprise you either. *grin* The guy was hunting rabbits in a bird sanctuary. My son was picking blackberries, and happened to be wearing khaki shorts. Um. I got in the guy's face. Just a little bit. I won that argument and the man had a gun. Yep. I'm surprised every day I wake up alive... |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Well, what part of the "formula" for managing the area did you change to try to get better results? If you aren't willing to change your formula of management, but just keep using basically the same thing over and over again even after it has failed in the past in similar areas, then I think you yourself have asked for failure! Also, being the only one managing such an area is bound to overburden yourself. One man soon magnifies even little problems simply because they are there and continue in one degree or another. And how can you expect them not be there or continue? Human nature has weaknesses which inevitably gives rise to similar problems in similar areas like these, flaws in logic, misunderstanding, obstinance, etc. It doesn't make sense to expect such things not to be there. They are always there to some extent. But it does makes sense to try to deal with them better so they don't overwhelm things. In contrast to just one man trying though, a good team/group can make even large problems small, with sharing the duties and no one person facing the weight of trying to manage it all. It is hard to see why there seemed to be no effort to invite others as helping hands in managing the area - it wasn't even listed in the application form for volunteers. If it was so difficult to deal with don't you think helping hands would've made a big difference? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Ah, and helping hands did make a difference. Alicat handled the area admirably. Moderating that forum has a particular sensitivity, however, so it's difficult to find someone up to the job. Myself? I couldn't imagine having to read every word of a political complaint department, following every link to ensure that those are kosher as well? Not me, thank you. I have a houseful of people here and I have said to my own bunch what you just said a million times--just not so eloquently. And yes, I have put the place on lockdown a few times as well. Do I miss the Alley? Sure. I just paid a fifty dollar co-pay for 15 pills of dubious medicinal value at a pharmacy. I instinctively thought about going to The Alley to complain. But maybe instead of just venting it out, I'll go write my doctor a letter, explaining to him why I'll not be employing his services. I already phoned the pharmacy to tell them that instead of paying a ridiculous amount of money for a new version of an old drug, I'll just find a doctor who will understand that times are tough, and I refuse to allow my illness to become a commodity for pharmaceutical kickbacks. OH. *shrug&* I should save that part for the ltter, huh? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ess Helping hands come with problems. Those who are able have minds of their own, and that's not good! Those who are malleable have no sense or initiative and are impotent. The former become disillusioned and leave; the latter have eventually to be removed. Either way I wind up on my own. A team? Wassthat? |
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Mysteria
since 2001-03-07
Posts 18328British Columbia, Canada |
I truly believe that some people are meant to be on their own. I actually fit into that category. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I guess we shouldn't speak out too much in this forum . Next thing we know Philosophy will be sentenced to death too. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I think maybe that’s a bit unfair, Ess, we’ve all been allowed to have our say in this thread so far without any censorship. I think this thread proves several things. Though a few came very, very close, it is possible to have a decent discussion with opposing views expressed on a hot button topic without resorting to personal attacks. Even though this is “a poetry site” Pipsters are indeed interested in discussion, want to be heard, share their views and opinions. And also that the powers that be are willing to listen. I think you made a really good point with your statement “In contrast to just one man trying though, a good team/group can make even large problems small, with sharing the duties and no one person facing the weight of trying to manage it all.” And perhaps having just one general discussion forum would make the job even easier and might spread out the topics so that one particular type of discussion, such as political, doesn’t overwhelm as it did in the Alley. Should that happen, then a gentle reminder that hogging the forum is rude would be certainly be in order. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Something else before I head out - I’ve seen things get out of hand in discussion forums on other sites. One tactic that seemed to work well was that instead of selectively editing an offending post, the entire post was deleted nearly as soon at it hit the boards. Nothing shuts down a flamer or troller any quicker than having their keenly honed attacks disappear in a flash. You know how vain writers can be and when their words disappear without being read or kindling a reaction, they either shape up or move on. And there’s nothing at all wrong, in my view, with imposing a time out for those who need a breather to get their self control back. We all lose it now and again and need to pause and take a deep breath. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Humm - Jenn, your thoughts are good, but wasted here now imv. PiP is no longer interested in "discussion" or views which diverge from "The Norm" ... "O wonder! How many goodly creatures are there here! How beautious mankind is! O brave new world, That has such people in't!" Shakespeare - "The Tempest" |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"I find it just another way to rant about a place that use to allow all opinions without the attacks that continued on day after day." Well said. Maureen. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Now moonbeam, don’t start acting like a curmudgeon. PiP is the people who post on the site and they’re still interested in discussion. Just take a look, see how many folks have joined in this discussion. Me, you, Ess, Grinch, Serenity, Mysteria, Sunshine, Alison, nktdtoughts, and Balladeer. There’s the proof, now back to Brendan’s pudding. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Hey Jen!  I'm trying to figure out what I want to say here, but I certainly don't want to convey the idea that I have some opinion about who did what to whom that was out of line. If I go by the last thread I glanced at? EVERYBODY was out of line, because I simply scrolled through to count how many times Ron came in to edit, and it was nearly every post, from you, from Mike, from Bobk. So I don't know. I seldom know when I am out of line m'self. I wanted you to know that a pipfriend asked me privately who I admire at Pip and for what, and your name came up, because I do indeed admire your ability to hold your own in rooms previously reserved for cigar smoke. I wish I had your abilities. There's a lot of stuff going on in my community that might benefit if we had more people with your abilities to focus, debate, compare and contrast the present to points in history. Yes. I wish I could channel you, m'friend--even though I'm confused as to why I feel a need to fight so hard to hang on to the right to live in a dying swamp. (There's some issues here, locally, of Eminent Domain I'd love to hear your ideas about, so yes, I miss The Alley.) Being Jennifer would come in handy here... I appreciate all of you. <--and that's for moonbeam.ciao for now and *peace* |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Thanks for the kind words Karen. I see your little yellow envelope is up again. I’m post op and a little under the weather tonight but will email you soon. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I don't think that it is becoming behavior to offer unsolicited managerial advice to Ron regarding his homestead. Words differ from carved squirrels and other artifacts in that they can be copied and saved to personal files before or after decorating Ron's home with them, if one is truly enamored of them. The Alley is gone, so make the best of what's left, and as long as people remember to treat others as they would like to be treated there won't be any need to worry about losing another forum. Sounds simple enough to me. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thanks Jen, because um, I don't know what it is, but not too many people take me seriously.  And btw, anybody can feel free to help me. There's a little matter of a hospital that I'd like to save. Seriously, the new mayor of New Orleans wants to tear down several historical neighbors AND the historical building that housed Charity hospital... it just doesn't make sense to me. And oh. Ron? I would like to apologize for being a pain in the ass. I'm sad enough about things that ain't there no more, and this place has been, well, a port in a storm for me and my family. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I can’t even begin to imagine what it must be like for you, Karen, to have been through what you’ve been through, to have lost so much already and now once again watching what you care about so much being swept away. On my to do list is the New Orleans Jazz Festival. May take a couple of years to save up, but some day I’ll make it. Would be such an honor and privilege to meet you. You stay strong and I will too. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I take you very seriously Karen, you and your poetry - always have always will. As long as you are in PiP, I guess there will still be a heartbeat.Jenn! You put "Me" in front of "You" in that list. Behave .Denise, comparing a "homestead" is an abysmal analogy. PiP is no more Ron's homestead than it is yours or mine. Having the key, and the power to ban, change, delete, edit etc etc confers a high degree of responsibility - what it does not confer are absolute rights. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Yes, moonbeam, as long as Karen’s here there will be a heartbeat and a heart. Sorry about the me first attitude, blame it on the meds and this too: A little musical interlude dedicated to Karen - Kosmic Blues http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bILQoikzFZo&feature=related |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
lol, Rob. I don't see how my analogy is any more abysmal than your 'piece of land' analogy. Call it what you will. Ron more than has the keys. He owns the place. We are invited guests. The responsibility lies with us to obey the few house rules that are in place. Ron has the legal and moral right, at any time, to shut the whole thing down. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Oh look what I found! Here’s a rather unique Janis, think Karen might like this one, too - Janis, her voice raspy and weary but still, filled with passion, intensity and HEART. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNEgcqWDG4 |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Jenn, I wouldn't have it any other way Denise - we'll have to agree to disagree; imo he doesn't have the moral right to do anything of the sort given the way the site is presented to what you call the invitees. More to the point the evidence of the (admittedly somewhat distant) past, and his past behaviour towards naughty inmates has tended to support my view that at one time he was fully aware of the moral position. For what it's worth I think he's just too tired or too busy to care anymore. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Jen? I once looped that clip until it made my son's psyche crack. Thank you. And one for EVERYBODY: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAnSyQA_fT4 |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Rob...for what's it's worth? He once got so frustrated with things he nearly decided to turn the entire site OFF. It's his domain. He IS the Wiz. I really don't want this community to dissolve. Please. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
For some who posted here for years, their “community” has already been dissolved. Many in their circle of family and friends have already disappeared, moved on to other sites because the forums they enjoyed most here were shut down. How sad so few seem to understand that fact or even seem to care. |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
"Many in their circle of family and friends have already disappeared, moved on to other sites because the forums they enjoyed most here were shut down." Jen, how can you generalize that way? For some or many of us, we DO HAVE A LIFE other than being on line 24/7 or have jobs/careers that don't allow us or have the opportunity to be on as much as others. That does not mean we don't come and read (and I am not speaking for the "many" ... just for those I know who are busy or taking a break from writing and responding.) There was a time and maybe a need, when some of us from almost the beginning, were on here and the internet many hours of the day and or night out of need for relief and understanding that we could not get from the outside world. And many of us came together from other sites that had confrontations and wanted to come where we could relax and enjoy poetry and friendships. After all, this is mainly a poetry site and if I am not mistaken, I don't think any poetry forums have ever been deleted. M |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Right again, Maureen. It's easy to make a generalized statement with no proof to back it up but the fact is that PIP has survived and continues to grow. You are also right that we have received many new members transferring from sites to get away from the dissention and other foolishness that they employ. Passions is alive and well, great news for many and bad news for a few. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
Interesting point about none of the poetry forums being deleted, Maureen. The other day I did a quick count and found out there were actually far more inappropriate content reports on posts in some of the poetry forums than the Alley. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
I wasn't referring to those taking a break, busy, whatever, but meant those I've run into who now post on other sites. Sorry I didn't make that clear, Maureen. |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
You mentioned a few bad apples, Sunshine, and Balladeer mentioned another site he posts on. I'm familiar with that site, still post poetry there but under a different pen name now. It's a much larger site which means having the potential for more bad apples than here. Instead of shutting down an entire forum, tossing the whole barrel down the garbage chute, here (in part) is how they handle their bad apples: Warning / Ban Process •When a member breaks the rules, they will first receive a warning, then a 3 day ban, 1 week ban, 1 month ban, 3 month ban, and lifetime ban. •This is reset after 3-6 months of good behavior (depending on the severity of the incident) Seems to work quite well and the innocent don't end up being punished along with the guilty. |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Jenn...I've seen the bad apples come and go. Some, willingly. Others, because they don't know a good thing when they see it. In so many ways, my dear, I have seen promises from you that want me to like you so much. Then there are times I see things I don't like at all. It makes me wonder who you really want to kick. But then, that's me, sticking my neck out. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well said and I agree completely, sir. There will be no more bickering. People have expressed their support or displeasure and it time to move on. This thread only serves to support Ron's acknowledgement that some participants cannot agree respectfully without becoming personally offensive. Hopefully that's a lesson we have learned here. Back to poetry, anyone? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karilea, I understand. I understand Ron's frustration - I can certainly understand why he'd want to shut down people threads forums and the site. I guess he's just human like the rest of us, and sometimes, living a bit in the past, I tend to forget that. Someone a few posts back, maybe Maureen, said this site was mainly about poetry. Ron himself says that isn't the case. It's mainly about people, about friendships and community. The circle is more and more restricted nowadays (maybe not Ron's fault entirely), that's why I'm sad I guess. Mike Please don't lecture me on personal attacks after your exchange with Jenn just now. |
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nakdthoughts Member Laureate
since 2000-10-29
Posts 19200Between the Lines |
I'm sorry you are sad about this Moonbeam : "Someone a few posts back, maybe Maureen, said this site was mainly about poetry. Ron himself says that isn't the case. It's mainly about people, about friendships and community." There was more to my response than just the above: "And many of us came together from other sites that had confrontations and wanted to come where we could relax and enjoy poetry and friendships. After all, this is mainly a poetry site and if I am not mistaken, I don't think any poetry forums have ever been deleted. just so you understand that I understand that this was a site more than just about poetry...and that being said, I have made many friendships over the 10 plus years I have been on this site and met many past and present poets in person.This is the only poetry site I visit mainly because of the camaraderie and though many times I and others have been told we write "fluff" there are many who can relate to what we write and know us well enough to know our meanings behind what we write. I enjoyed reading in the alley and am sorry it is gone too, but so much of it was repetitious after awhile and with no compromises on opinions and facts. One could almost always know which side each poster was on and what the replies would be. Posters can still post their feelings and beliefs as others on here do in poetic form or prose and get responses to them without the harshness of some of the past discussions. Just my opinion, which probably doesn't count for much, but since I have been a member of long standing (with my share of reprimands) I feel that this site has been a life saver for myself and maybe others. I hope you realize what we have here and continue to contribute. M |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Setting is always important in a good Tale. I can see why you’d want to project the Alley as a place of growth & graciousness. ((Hugs)) for that. But, sadly, to me and other readers present during the dirt slinging, the notion is, in a word: Ineffectual. Much of what was transpiring in the Alley was just dirt and more dirt. Infertile, dead, and found wanting for substance for those who really love to read more than they ever love to post. Imo, the internet has removed many dignities from proper conversation/writing/debate, etc. It’s added some, too, but it’s not what the internet has added that caused the Alley to be missing when I logged in the other day. I feel there’s an element of Approach that seems to have disappeared. Imo, Approach is a personal moral obligation for each person to hone in any type of writing before one ever traipses into the field: The field being the medium and the area of a particular interest, requiring a particular type of cultivation. Without the minor dignities of proper social skills and writing effectiveness, we end up with dead dirt, or mud, muck, and lifeless mire. And even with a name like the “Alley,” I doubt Dirt is what Ron had in mind, but it’s not my place to speak for him. This is his place, and I’m a guest. He’s hosted much for me in the past 10 years and I’m grateful to the core for what he’s offered me in the field of writing. One of the things I’ve learned on PiP-- (The first and only site I’ve ever been truly involved with) Personal attacks don’t require any skill. Most of the attacks are subtle: Minor blips across the line. All, still, very effective only to the demise of something much bigger--An atmosphere or a place where people can engage/interact/share/contemplate etc, in the field of writing. When we decide to champion our Bull all over our fellow writer, that’s when things get really ugly. I know. It’s easy to do when easily offended or easily drawn in by skilled manipulations. I’m not easily offended, but I don’t mind admitting that I’m very good at becoming “wordwrapped” for something to say when particular subjects hit close to home with me. I get all wound up and start spurting nonsensical things that effectually confuse the reader and deviate from the topic. And I write like I speak. It’s not a very becoming thing! I can be very caustic, as well. But when of pleasant sound mind and body, if a writer pays close attention to approach, minding to avoid even a blip toward another person, then it should be easy to see how mindless blatancy shuts down things that are in some way important to all & even some you may not know are watching and reading. Ineffectual: To give more precise examples of the ineffectual writing on the walls of the Alley, I’ll post some below. But in no way am I targeting anyone, I’m focused on the material posted. I’m not innocent in any of this. --A willingness to forsake even an elementary grasp of a person’s post for a compulsive over-familiarity toward the person. --Pulling the gender card in a genderless arena to thwart the enemy. --Slinging pics and links that support nothing but a negatively generalizing attitude. --Ping-ponging responses for no other reason but to silence/dig/smack/incite while the topic becomes road-kill. There’s SO much more and I encourage everyone to post what is material to ineffective writing ONLY to help SELF & OTHERS to be more focused on what is effective and cultivating. Things will be interesting and different for all, but nonetheless an important essence of growth. Some people are water, storms, sunshine, compost, seeds, bees, manure. LOL! How can we clear the field and cultivate more effective writing, reading, interacting, engaging, sharing, debate, (whatever your preference?)?? Ron gave us a little place. He didn’t take it away because we were gifted writers. Having a talent isn’t a gift to me unless I use what God gave me to inspire others. It’s my own spiritual/moral obligation that I take responsibility for before I ever approach a host for such. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Maureen I started this thread mainly because I was disappointed with the manner in which the Alley was closed, and wanted to see if others agreed with me that it was not a very decorous or polite way in which to do it. To be clear, I'm not particularly sorry to see the Alley (given what it became) eradicated, any more than I was to see Critical Analysis (given what it became) closed, because I agree with a lot of what rwood says above. Both forums had degenerated to something other than what they were years ago. The compelling issue for me was not the fact of their demise, but simply the reason for it. In this thread the debate has widened into looking at the reason PiP exists, the whole issue of, as you put it, "camaraderie" and "a place to enjoy poetry and friendships". When I first started posting here almost 11 years ago I came from a background of zero knowledge about poetry, and two very bad internet forum experiences. One was a newsgroup inhabited by the most vicious gratuitous form of negative critique, and the other was a message board devoted to showcasing what you call "fluff", but passing such fluff (and there is NOTHING wrong with fluff) off as being in the league of Shakespeare or Eliot. Both places were deeply dissatisfying, and so it was with some relief I found PiP. The opening strap line for the PiP main page worried me a little - "Poetry has magic, especially when it comes from the heart" - but I very soon found the people in the Critical Analysis forum were friendly, helpful and, above all, willing to tell me what they really thought of my writing! For the first time online I was able to enter into a meaningful debate about what makes poetry work - and to become a better writer as a result of it. The main reason I keep coming back to this site is I suppose because it was here - thanks to people like Brad, Craig, Jenni, Pete, Trevor and yes, even HootOwl, that I learned to write poetry. It's easy to look back and see things changing though. For a short while, a couple of years maybe, the newness and enthusiasm carried people through the tensions that pretty soon arose. And, let's for once be honest, there is, and probably always will be, a tension, between those who are happy to simply write what they feel and share it, and those who want to analyse, discuss, argue, dissect and, horror upon horror, critique! Soon Ron's vision (at least I assume it was his vision) of a circle of friends embracing all creeds, colours, social background etc was imperilled by the very thing that I think he maybe imagined would unite them - poetry. The problems arising from the different ways in which people approached poetry and the discussion thereof should in theory have been easily transcended by the bonds of friendship that might form between say a "fluff" poet and an "analytical" poet (for want of better descriptions). But it didn't seem to work out like that. For reasons I don't fully understand poetry (like religion) seems to bring out extremes of passion, and those passions do seem to get in the way of possible friendship; above all they get in the way of respect. However, and it is a big "however", I believed back then when things got difficult, and still believe that the rainbow-talent nature of PiP could have been preserved. Ron had a great vision, and with the help of people who had somewhat diverging views to his own about poetry (and life!) it might have been possible perhaps to retain the heterogeneous nature of the site without compromising the "family" nature of the place. I think in retrospect though that the balance in PiP was always wrong if it was going to continue as a place for poets with widely differing ideas about poetry - and it got steadily worse (or better, depending on your point of view). Ron himself has openly expressed his own doubt about the value of critique. He has seemed in the past to be particularly sceptical about the desirability of what he thinks of as uniformed critique by "amateurs". I haven't been in the moderator forums for very long, and not at all in the distant past, but I know enough from discussing this with people who were, to say that Ron personal viewpoint was reflected heavily in the composition of the senior moderators and administrators. On the blue pages the lean towards "Open" type poetry and comment was already very marked. This could have been to some extent counterbalanced by a real effort on Ron's part to strengthen the moderating team behind the scenes with people who were sympathetic to a more intellectual approach, and to show real enthusiasm himself for a more cerebral and thinking way of writing poetry, rather than a "from the heart" approach. It occurs to me now that this was never going to happen. Ron was perhaps "persuaded", maybe against his better judgement, to try to make the blue pages more than just a "vanity" or "showcase" poetry board. Maybe Brad, for instance, pushed the idea of a CA forum hard. In which case the last 10 years have simply been a slow and somewhat painful contraction back to what he and the people "in power" surrounding him are comfortable with. Like I said at the start of this ramble, I think it's the manner in which all this has happened that I find sad. A clean break years ago would, imv, have been better than this slow irritable descent. Some months ago, there was a thread where, ironically enough, we had an exchange Maureen. There were things said in that thread which should have been said openly years ago. SEA's comment here: /pip/Forum19/HTML/000366.html#7 was at least devastatingly honest, and I suspect expresses the feelings of many PiP Members. I know that is not Ron's view, but the fact was that, allowing that disparity of underlying feeling to pervade the blue pages, allowed the disrespect for the diverse ways of approaching writing to grow to the point where the whole ethos of the site was imperilled - the goal of creating a place for safe and happy social interaction. I made many friends here over the years, but that friendship was grounded upon the shared interest in detailed debating and writing in a friendly place. Gradually as PiP became less inclusive, and more an exclusive club for a certain type of poet, these people left. Some remain online in other forums, some presumably gave up online writing. I think the Alley represented just the last writhe of a discontented tail end. Now PiP has become what it perhaps always should have been, maybe Ron will get some peace at last, and reflect on the fact that at least he had the guts to try. R |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Having little to do with Philosophy now, perhaps this thread might be moved to "Feelings"? |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: No, Rob, it's the other way around. The lack of respect and the intolerance of a few get in the way of the poetry. quote: The irony is that you don't even see that your own attitudes, as evinced in this sardonic sentence, is at the root of the tension you attempt to describe. The elitism is almost palpable. quote: It's never been either/or, Rob. Successful poetry is a melding of the heart and mind, not a battlefield between them. What you describe as different persuasions is, in actually, simply different points on the experience curve. And that curve is NOT linear. Your descriptions could perhaps be better applied to writing crossword puzzles. They are cerebral and can be very challenging, but that doesn't make them poetry (nor does it stop them from being poetry). quote: Your entire discussion, Rob, seems to be based, first, on the assumption that you know what I'm doing and, second, on the belief that I don't know what I'm doing. The latter may very well be true. The former most certainly is not. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: I disagree. I think that there is a frisson in a poetry forum like this that makes for over sensitivity. And yes it is a lot to do with the passionate attachment people have to their own work. quote: And the irony is Ron that you don't see that I always have and always will acknowledge my own weaknesses in this area. In the past I have sometimes "looked down" on what Maureen calls fluff poetry - but I have NEVER fallen out with someone or started abusing them personally because they write lighter weight poetry. It's your own sensitivity Ron that makes you think that what you call my elitism is somehow a threat to the site. The fact is that the site could never work in a multilayered way (as in different attitudes to poetry sitting harmoniously together) while you and those closest to you ALWAYS took the view in any altercation between what you call an "elitist" and an "ordinary member" that the ordinary member somehow was "right" or needed protecting. Perhaps the very fact that you think of what I say or write as "elitist" is indicative of the gulf that exists. A gulf that the moderating slant at PiP did absolutely nothing to bridge over the years, and a good deal to widen. quote: Of course I agree with this, and in the interests of brevity (ha) I was simplistic. But I was talking about you and your perceived attitude over the years, not about the experience curve. In a way, you stating it like that so clearly, and your obvious awareness of the true position, makes me even more unhappy about how things have turned out. I really have no idea how CA came into being or whether you ever intended the site to be more than a large Open forum, but it seems to me that you could have done a whole lot more at both the site level and the forum level, and in the moderating effort to emphasise what you have just said. Perhaps the opening tag line for the site could have been your words above: "Successful poetry is a melding of the heart and mind, not a battlefield between them." Now that would have been good - and original! Even without the battlefield bit. I still feel that had more been done to make that very point over and over - then the tensions we both perceive (and you seem to blame purely on elitism) would have been lessened. quote: No Ron. The opening to this thread was based on a concrete observation of what you actually did, in the absence of any word from you as to what or why you were actually doing it. The following discussion revolved around my speculation, again based upon (admittedly limited) observation, as to why you did what you did over the last 11 years. I have no idea why I keep speculating. Maybe you combine a species of logicality and illogicality which I have rarely come across, and you are therefore fascinating. Or maybe it's simply that I really am trying to understand how PiP got from there to here. Your guess is probably as good as mine. |
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Novus_Os Member
since 2010-07-21
Posts 115West Coast, USA |
The underlying purpose isn't to me even so much what the land is intended for. To me the good moral choice leaves some chance for growth. Perhaps having an small event on the land in question, and then, taking the opportunity, to inform the people of the way in which you see the land being used properly is a good start. It would perhaps spark decent dialogue on the way to understanding.By the way, how do you do that gavel graphic or the other one serenity? Life is meant to be enjoyed, not just endured. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Me? I don't think I've ever used a gavel graphic. But just below this response/reply box, you'll see "Quick View" in darker blue. The first option to the right is "smilies" where you'll find a list of different responses to choose from--whatever you feel is appropriate to enhance your idea or the discussion. Like this one, for instance, you simple press colon, type the word alley and another colon and you get this:  |
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Novus_Os Member
since 2010-07-21
Posts 115West Coast, USA |
I have a list of 91 icons, which I can select from a numbered list or view in a box called " See the Icons". I don't have any additional listed, and I can't scroll to the right in the box. I DID however guess angel on my own! Cool. Maybe you can help me out more via an e-mail or point me to a place for tech/help on this feature? Thanks. Regards, Novus_Os. PS. Did I walk into a somewhat complex discussion? Apparently... |
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