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Passions in Poetry

Is there Equality?

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Essorant
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50 posted 02-01-2010 12:47 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
Ess, the word "you" when responding directly to a specific person is indeed personal. To have it followed by a derrogatory accusation, especially an inane one, has little to do with intelligent conversation. If you don't agree with that, that's fine.


If it were "personal" and "derrogatory," why didn't Ron delete it?    

Balladeer
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51 posted 02-01-2010 01:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'm guessing that Ron got tired of deleting Alley entries a while back....it took up too much of his time! Or maybe he felt that it served us right to leave our words up there, showing how idiotic we are!

Hey, he didn't delete your comment in the other thread, calling my comments "ignorant", did he? He just had a birthday.....maybe getting softer in his old age.
Grinch
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Whoville


52 posted 02-01-2010 02:39 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


You may be right Mike, maybe Ron is busy – but isn’t that why there are Moderators and deputy Moderators?

I’ve instigated a discussion topic in the Mod forum via the inappropriate content link so that you and the other Moderators can discuss your accusations regarding my post.

Let me know what the outcome is and I’ll happily abide by your decision.

.
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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53 posted 02-01-2010 03:30 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

check.

over-population was a poor choice of word. (I can admit when I used the wrong word.)

What had happened was that European countries had exhausted their food supplies via over-farming, etc. They had also used up their energy reserves (trees) cities were over-crowded, farmland non-productive due to over-farming to keep up with the demand.

(True story--it's in the NEWER History books.)



The potato found its way to Ireland via South America. (Gee, I wonder how it got there?) I'm guessing it got there right in the nick of time, too.

We had potatoes with dinner last night.

And oh, Europeans brought a lot of stuff to America too. Like horses. And smallpox.

Which wiped out a once vibrant thriving nation of those pesky NATIVE Americans who were living on this undiscovered land.

Dinner is not only interesting at our house, it's fun. I wrote my prior post while playing the kazoo.

Ya'll should lighten up.

Balladeer
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54 posted 02-01-2010 04:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What had happened was that European countries had exhausted their food supplies via over-farming, etc.

Well, you are getting closer, who dat lady. It really wasn't over-farming that exhausted their food supplies. It was that darn beubonic stuff again, which dwindled down the work force, especially the poor, so badly that there were few to man the farms and do that irritating plowing, sewing and harvesting stuff. Therefore, there was a lot of starvation with crops dying in the fields. The thought that Europe had to search for new lands because or over-population and over-farming is a theory I've never heard before, but then I haven't read the NEW history books. I did, however, watch a 6 hour special on the history channel a few months back, outlining the years of the plague along with all the gory details. Over-farming wasn't mentioned.
Balladeer
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55 posted 02-01-2010 05:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Grinch, as far as moderators are concerned, Ron is the only one for the Alley and Philosophy. As I've explained before, other mods are just common citizens outside of their own forums.

You did the right thing and I'm sure it will provide for a stimulating discussion there for those with enough gumption to join in. When anything comes out of it, I'll let you know.


Brad
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since 08-20-99
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Jejudo, South Korea


56 posted 02-01-2010 08:00 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Actually, I believe you are right that Rand never intended anything other than superiority or inferiority.  Equality was never her thing.


quote:
Equality was always her thing....the equality of opportunity and freedom to take oneself as far as one could go, She did not accept the equality of leeches and their victims.


Take 'equality of' away from your statement and we're saying the same thing.  The ability of the Prime Movers to be Prime Movers was everything for her.  That meant opportunity and freedom.  I don't see the point in adding a further modifier.  

quote:
The ends justifying the means, Brad? I suppose it's what you want your nation to stand for.  America has always presented itself as a nation with equal rights for all, opportunity for all. That's why so many people have come here. Come on down here. I'll show you a whole lot of cubans, haitians, viet-namese, korean, you-name it, working their  respective butts off,  getting higher education, and making something out of their lives they had no opportunity to make in their own countries....and for every one of them I'll show you a lazy American complaining there are no jobs and where the hell is my unemployment check?


Do the ends justify the means? In politics, sure.  That's what politics is on a certain level.  The ends are opportunity for all to fulfill their goals, the means are a messy republic.  I agree with your view of immigrants by the way if only because I hear the same thing all the time on this side of the Pacific pond.

How do we get there? That's the hard part.

Balladeer
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57 posted 02-01-2010 08:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, it is, Brad...yes, it is.
serenity blaze
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58 posted 02-01-2010 08:14 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Gee, Mikie-boy. Maybe I'll get a silver medal or somethin'.




The bubonic plague was brought about from unsanitary practices, RATS--from overcrowding in CITIES. But you might be right. Those must have been just very small cities since there were so few people in them.

Have it all your way...I'm outta here. And I am taking my kazoo with me.

Denise
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59 posted 02-01-2010 10:59 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
Denise, I am really ashamed of you. For years I'd been wondering who kicked the indians off their land and, thanks to this thread, I come to find out it was YOU! I don't know how you sleep at night....


And let's not forget about slavery, segregation, any number of civil rights abuses and the Atom Bomb to boot!

JenniferMaxwell
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60 posted 02-02-2010 06:56 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell


“ Should equality apply to all or not?” Interesting question, Balladeer. -

“The Pope has urged Catholic bishops in England and Wales to fight the UK's Equality Bill with "missionary zeal".

Pope Benedict XVI said the legislation "violates natural law" and could end the right of the Catholic Church to ban gay people from senior positions.

But gay rights campaigners condemned his comments, saying equality had to apply to everyone, and Labour MEP Stephen Hughes said he was appalled.

The Pope will this year make the first papal visit to the UK since 1982.

'Unjust limitations'

He told the Catholic bishops of England and Wales gathered in Rome: "Your country is well-known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.

"Yet, as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

  We believe everyone should have a fair chance in life and not be discriminated against

Government Equalities Office spokesman
"In some respects it actually violates the natural law upon which the equality of all human beings is grounded and by which it is guaranteed."

Jonathan Finney, from gay rights charity Stonewall, told BBC Radio 5 live: "People should not be denied access to services and employment purely because they are gay.

"We've got to guard against sweeping exemptions seeming to protect one person's freedom, which actually really impact on other people's."


He added: "What you can't start doing is saying that religious people have hard-won freedoms, we'll now restrict those, we won't give them to gay people, we won't give them to women."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8492597.stm
.......

ROFL laughing about slavery, segregation, civil rights abuses and the Atom Bomb”, Denise. Never saw anyone do that before.

Balladeer
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61 posted 02-02-2010 07:43 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"What you can't start doing is saying that religious people have hard-won freedoms, we'll now restrict those, we won't give them to gay people, we won't give them to women."

Fantastic example, Jennifer. Religion is certainly a place where "equality" comes with a lot of astericks and equality is preached (literally) and seldom practiced.

Nice to see you again  
JenniferMaxwell
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62 posted 02-02-2010 12:18 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Thanks for the warm welcome back, Balladeer. Good to read you again, too.

Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
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63 posted 02-02-2010 04:43 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
When anything comes out of it, I'll let you know.


Thanks Mike, I appreciate that it may take some time until Ron and the other Mods come to a decision so I’ll sit quietly in the corner until I hear from you.

.
Bob K
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64 posted 02-02-2010 08:25 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:


Interesting, Bob.

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent.

I don't really understand that part and certainly don't agree with it.




     Of course you don't agree with it, Mike; you do try to be fair about things.

     Do you believe that Warren Buffet's situation is in substance different from that of other people in his bracket who make appropriate use of tax attorneys and current  tax law?  I,  for one, find it unlikely that Mr. Buffet would know of tax breaks that others don't, and suspect his situation is probably not unusual for folks in his tax bracket.

     My impression is that the budget is fairly inelastic with a fairly rigid set of expenses, generally predictable, and that there's not a lot of cutting that can be done.  The notion that there's a lot of waste in government is to some extent a red herring.  There is a massive exception to that, near as I understand, but for the most part the expenses are fairly fixed.  The notion of President Obama putting a freeze on spending, for example, seems reasonably silly because the amount of money it's actually possible for him to freeze out of the total is very small indeed and would make very little difference in the total amount of the expense we face.  I think it's bad politics and probably unrealistic.

     I mention this material because other people, Mike, yourself included, have mentioned this material in the discussion of equality so far, and it seems generally accepted that it's Okay to do so.

     The place where the expenses are out of hand, it seems to me, is on the servicing of the interest on the national debt.  To ask where the money is to come from to service the national debt is a very good question indeed.  To give a good answer to that question, we must ask where the sources of our national debt have come from.  Then we must ask if we are still inurring debt from those sources, to see if we are putting ourselves in the position of not only having to pay interest on old debt, but are also aquiring new debt without being aware of it.

  This is a problem of awareness of our actions.  

    When we ask about who is responsible for paying, I think this question is vital.

     The parallel questions are these: Who is responsible for knowing what the sources of our current indebtedness are?  What are they?  And how much are they?

     To talk about making cuts is a useless question unless we know what we are actually using to run up our debt with, and how much of that is attributable to which programs.  We need to be able to point to the programs and make specific plans for specific changes in these programs.

     Where do we look?
Essorant
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65 posted 02-02-2010 09:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Since Balladeer has come to play
The ladies cannot stay away.
Serenity, Denise, and Jen -
Philosophy has femes again.




Stephanos
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Statesboro, GA, USA


66 posted 02-02-2010 11:55 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

The Ally cat comes over to play
A bit more stuffy here, but hey
The lovies see his brains this way.

They follow him right through the door
to a place where they've all been before
where lecture and flexure made them snore

The Cassanova of philosophy?
I suppose, but wonder why't should be
The cat has so many years on me.  



Stephen
JenniferMaxwell
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67 posted 02-03-2010 12:34 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Should be interesting to see how Grinch, Bob, Ron and Ess feel about being referred to as “lovies”, Stephen.

Only one m, Ess, thought there were two? My mistake I’m sure.

Another timely topic re “equality” might be DADT.

Bob K
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68 posted 02-03-2010 04:45 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2010/01/federal_debt_th.html

     There's legitimate disagreement about what the causes of the current budget problems may be, and what should be done about them.  I notice that we seem to get stuck on talking about waste in this or that program.  

     I was having a look at some of the issues and the discussion above seemed civil to me.  It was thoughtful and folks on both sides seemed to have decent points to make about the debt.  It was clear that there were folks who might have been thinking "so's your Grandmother!" but somehow managed to stay reasonably polite.  The graphs took a bit of consideration for me, but even to my math challenged brain, they made some sense.

     I wanted to ask there how much a factor was the cost of servicing the interest on the debt in this current round of money woes.  At one point, prior to 1960 or so, it was apparently much lower than it is today; but how much of the budget today is going to service actual debt is not clear to me now.  If anyone has any notion, I'd be interested in finding out.  Large large additions to the national debt were chunked on in the Regan Years, and also the the Bush I years.  The additions during Bush II can be seen from the various graphs.

     I think there should be some way of reducing payment on some of these, for example by introducing competative bidding for medicare drug supplies in the medicare drug benefit and using actual market forces to force competition into a monopoly situation, and renegotiating some of the no-bid contracts we have as legacies.  De-certifiying non American companies from defense work  might have some interesting effects, especially for national security, but also for economic security in this country.  Some industries it simply is not a good idea to encourage to move overseas.

     Perhaps I'm simply being too Democratic about all this, but there is a certain virtue in being fair to ourselves in terms of money and jobs, among other things.
Balladeer
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69 posted 02-03-2010 06:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, here they are, sir Essorant.
Some come to praise, some come to rant.
Some add bright sunlight to our lives
While others come with sharpened knives.

No matter...all are welcome here.
They're prettier than you or 'deer.
No matter if they dance or fence
We always welcome their two cents.
JenniferMaxwell
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70 posted 02-03-2010 07:08 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Speaking of flip flops, as some one was in another thread, did McCain waffle a bit on his previous stance re DADT?

"the day that the leadership of the military comes to me and says, 'Senator, we ought to change the policy,' then I think we ought to consider seriously changing it."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/03/mullen-testimony-on-dadt_n_447583.html
JenniferMaxwell
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71 posted 02-03-2010 08:10 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Bob, was doing a bit of reading and found this that touches on your suggestion re Medicare and competitive bidding.
http://www.dmecompetitivebid.com/palmetto/cbic.nsf/DocsCat/Home

Seems something is in the works for supplies and equipment but I did’t see any mention of drugs.  

Slightly dated but informative:
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/07/01-8

Bob K
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72 posted 02-03-2010 08:29 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear JM,

          Two excellent articles.  The other piece I wonder about with the Pharma is that while it may give something of a break on doughnut hole costs, which are born by the voters themselves in person, and which impact them directly in the wallet every time, they do nothing about the overall cost of the drugs to the government.  The price for the Pharma Drugs seems to continue at the artificially high level, but the voters are shielded from the actual sensation of having to pay and understand that they are being seriously ripped off.  Their anger is diverted to the government that has refused to actually force the industry to act in a competitive fashion and bid against competitors, thus encouraging the Pharma monopoly.

     That's in addition to the points that you've raised, which I hadn't even considered.  Eye openers, they are.

Very best, Bob Kaven    

      
JenniferMaxwell
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73 posted 02-03-2010 11:27 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Just a passing thought - was reading somewhere that if drug companies cut out spending millions on lobbying and donations to Congressional campaigns, they could reduce the cost of drugs and still make a decent profit.

Personal story - have a friend who works for a large drug company, one of the top five. He earns more in a year than I would in a couple of lifetimes. I’m really very happy he’s doing so well and certainly wouldn’t want to see his paycheck cut. On the other hand, his company makes a drug I could benefit from but can’t afford. There is no generic available at this time.

Glad you enjoyed the articles, Bob.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


74 posted 02-04-2010 10:20 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Yes, here they are, sir Essorant.

Some come to praise, some come to rant.

Some add bright sunlight to our lives

While others come with sharpened knives.

No matter...all are welcome here.

They're prettier than you or 'deer.[one mistake]

No matter if they dance or fence

We always welcome their two cents.
L1--- wonderful spondee(counts as one beat)

L3-tricky but I think you pulled it off

L6--sorry can't get it to work. Tried. Let me know how you hear it.

L8: C'mon the double iamb there is perfect.

Well done, well done.

 
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