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Passions in Poetry

Is there Equality?

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serenity blaze
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25 posted 01-31-2010 01:25 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

" I asked if readers felt that all should be treated equally, in this case, in the form of taxation."

Um, I was actually unaware that was the question.

All men are not created equal.

Some of them have vaginas.

But for absolute equality, we would have to be created equal. There are things we've heard our entire life, that are simply not true. Even if we could ensure that people are economically balanced at birth--people are born with genetic pre-dispositions of say, aptitude for learning, or physical strength, and vice versa...blah blah.

That is when my term parity comes in--which by the way, would lend itself better to a philosophical discussion instead of ...this.

Too sad. But I was willing to give it a try.

I'm going back to the farm. Nice to "see" you all again though!
serenity blaze
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26 posted 01-31-2010 01:29 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

and for the record. I still like Ron's analogy. It took a very complex issue and made it more...digestible.
Balladeer
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27 posted 01-31-2010 02:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You gave it a good try and made a lotta sense.
Always a pleasure to see you
Denise
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28 posted 01-31-2010 02:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

How did this country ever survive without an income tax I wonder.  
Grinch
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29 posted 01-31-2010 04:32 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Denise,

Before income tax your government raised revenue through tariffs and taxes based on calculable methods other than income, the main ones being property and land tax.

In addition, revenue was raised through land sales – you basically kicked native Americans off their land, claimed it as your own, then sold it or leased it to the highest bidder.


Denise
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30 posted 01-31-2010 06:27 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

And we still have property and land tax plus federal, state and local income taxes and state and local sales taxes to boot. I read somewhere there were less taxes under King George! That may well be true.
Balladeer
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31 posted 01-31-2010 09:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Welcome to the Alley once again. Some things just never change.....
serenity blaze
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32 posted 01-31-2010 09:42 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Grinch? That's amazing. My son and I were just talking about that very same thing!

I mean, that was sooooooooooooooclose to what he just said, I'm getting all karenoid again!

(Um, you weren't in the states 'round about 1989, were ya?)

Wow.
serenity blaze
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33 posted 01-31-2010 10:04 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

<--from the "pragmatic atheist".

*chuckle*
Essorant
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34 posted 02-01-2010 01:05 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant



Philosophy can be a very argumentative sphere too, Balladeer.

 
Balladeer
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35 posted 02-01-2010 01:33 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Apparently it can be a sphere for ridiculous insults, also.
Balladeer
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36 posted 02-01-2010 01:41 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Denise, I am really ashamed of you. For years I'd been wondering who kicked the indians off their land and, thanks to this thread, I come to find out it was YOU! I don't know how you sleep at night....

Point out the philosophical point there, would you, Ess? Comments like that have only one purpose and little to do with intelligent conversation.
serenity blaze
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37 posted 02-01-2010 03:02 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Mike, I read the rest of this thread to my son too. Since our blood is mixed, I told him his outrage could depend on which vein was throbbing. (He looked at me funny, too.)

You are very gallant to come to the defense of our Denise, but I think she can take care of herself.

Perhaps I should put my comments in the context of what is pretty much typical dinner conversation--

My son, after hearing me read this thread, immediately said that the Columbus expedition was basically a government sponsored terrorism--which probably had to have taken place anyway, considering the population explosion and the resulting diminishing of resources in Europe--a prompt into our/their first foray into global economy.

(It was about trade routes, so mind your history)

I had to agree with my son, too, considering that history backs up the facts of that. We commandeered land. (They were not amused.)

But my son and I do cocede confusion at one point:

We confuse the pronouns "we" and "they"--since we are of mixed blood.

To sum it up though, I think we need to mind our history to foresee our future. My (our) European ancestors came here because they had outsourced, over-populated, and totally depleted our (their) natural resources. (How ironic, eh?)

We came here, and through guise and guile, we/they proclaimed this land for our own pimpdom.

We/They proceded to call this "Manifest Destiny", proclaiming a God that took sides amongst the quibbles of a lesser god's 'discernment'--marching, relentlessly on, from one coast to the next, and I don't believe we are done.

We raised the flag of "Capitalism" and I will brave the affront of those whom I unintentionally offend--Capitalism with no conscience is far worse than Communism--which acknowledges parity but at the beheading of individuality and resulting ingenuity.

We, the people of these United States, are attempting to form the more perfect union, that of the strength of a Republic, which is tempered by the compassion of Democracy; thus, we achieve the middle path of temperance--which is mercy and discipline.

And to whom much is given?

Much is expected.

And that, right there--is my word:

parity.

serenity blaze
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38 posted 02-01-2010 03:14 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

And I came back to note that changing "Equal Rights" to "Equality" doesn't satisfy me.

But not much does...smile.
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39 posted 02-01-2010 06:55 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Serenity gal, I agree completely that we, every country, needs to mind it's history and learn from it. I have said before, especially in conversations with Marge, that I found the actions of the United States to be despicable with regards to the treatment of Indians. I am not referring to that, nor am I referring to Columbus or the Civil War or any other parts of our history which could be considered shameful. Show me the country which does not have shame in it's past.

We are writers here. We know how to use words to achieve specific goals. Tell me something. If a visiting foreigner to New Orleans came up to you and said, "You hanged blacks. You tied them to vehicles and drug them to death. You slaughtered them.", what would be your reaction? This fellow does not say, "your government" or "your ancestors", but you, speaking directly at you. Tell me the hairs on your neck wouldn't rise a little? Yes, of course, when you proclaimed that you had never hung a black and even had many good black friends, he could  fall back on, "Oh, I mean your government of the past" but that's not the way he chose to phrase it. He preferred to address his disdain or criticism, using  YOU in a confrontational manner. He didn't do it by accident. He did it for effect. He WANTED it to irritate you. Would this be a person you would invite over for gumbo or would it be a "have a nice day, senor"?

That's alley lingo, not philosophy

p.s.....dinner at your house must really be a fun event!
Balladeer
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40 posted 02-01-2010 07:14 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

To sum it up though, I think we need to mind our history to foresee our future. My (our) European ancestors came here because they had outsourced, over-populated, and totally depleted our (their) natural resources. (How ironic, eh?)

Actually, we DO need to mind our history not to come up with false conclusions..

The Black Death is estimated to have killed 30% to 60% of Europe's population, reducing the world's population from an estimated 450 million to between 350 and 375 million in 1400. This has been seen as creating a series of religious, social and economic upheavals which had profound effects on the course of European history. It took 150 years for Europe's population to recover. The plague returned at various times, resulting in a larger number of deaths, until it left Europe in the 19th century.

With half of Europe's population wiped out by 1400, I seriously doubt that overpopulation was a problem by 1492 which drove them here.

Humans are explorers, always have been, always will be. That's why we had men on the moon, vehicles on Mars, probes going out as far as Jupiter. That's why Star Trek's mission was to explore new worlds! And that's why the Mayflower tied up on Plymouth Rock. It had nothing to do with over-population or depletion of natural resources.
Brad
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41 posted 02-01-2010 08:18 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
I seriously doubt that overpopulation was a problem by 1492 which drove them here.


True.  Who gave Columbus the go ahead and why?

Whether or not you answer that question is really quite irrelevant, I'm more curious that you seem to be arguing for equality?

Rand, I think it safe to say, was never an egalitarian.  Why now?
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42 posted 02-01-2010 09:03 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, Brad, I wasn't arguing for equality.

I see it as a philosophical question. SHould equality apply to all  or not? Or should there be equality only up to a point? Is "a little equal" similar to being "a little pregnant"? Should we practice equality or not? Or is it even feasible?

I was simply asking what others thought. I also stated that I was torn by the statement. Equality is a  nice warm, fuzzy thought but is it feasible? I'm still torn.

Btw, I don't think you would be safe in saying that about Rand. I would contend that she did indeed believe in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people. What they did with those rights was up to them. If they chose not to use them to their best advantage, she did not give them the right to demand that others provide for them, that's all. I doubt that you will find anywhere where she felt those rights should be denied at birth by race, creed, beliefs or social standing. Actually I'm sure of it.
Brad
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43 posted 02-01-2010 09:27 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Actually, I believe you are right that Rand never intended anything other than superiority or inferiority.  Equality was never her thing.

Is this, therefore, a philosophical question or a pragmatic one?

I think it involves the nature of a nation and not the prissiness of principle.

But, Mike, if your answer is no, then why the problem with someone else who says no?

Equality becomes irrelevant, does it not?

The nation is what matters, does it not?
Balladeer
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44 posted 02-01-2010 10:00 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, I believe you are right that Rand never intended anything other than superiority or inferiority.  Equality was never her thing.

Actually, I never said that at all, as you well know. Equality was always her thing....the equality of opportunity and freedom to take oneself as far as one could go, She did not accept the equality of leeches and their victims. Obviously, you don't know as much about her as I thought, to make a statement like that.

Equality becomes irrelevant, does it not?
The nation is what matters, does it not?


The ends justifying the means, Brad? I suppose it's what you want your nation to stand for.  America has always presented itself as a nation with equal rights for all, opportunity for all. That's why so many people have come here. Come on down here. I'll show you a whole lot of cubans, haitians, viet-namese, korean, you-name it, working their  respective butts off,  getting higher education, and making something out of their lives they had no opportunity to make in their own countries....and for every one of them I'll show you a lazy American complaining there are no jobs and where the hell is my unemployment check?

Of course we could always adopt the India caste system of government and then we wouldn't have to even worry about it.
Essorant
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45 posted 02-01-2010 11:14 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Balladeer


quote:
Apparently it can be a sphere for ridiculous insults, also.

quote:
Point out the philosophical point there, would you, Ess? Comments like that have only one purpose and little to do with intelligent conversation.


Philosophy includes people making many statements and generalizations.  As in any other sphere of study or contemplation, many of them may be very debatable, ill-worded, or outright wrong!  

I am glad you made an issue with the way Grinch worded his comment.  But it is not right to accuse it of being a personal insult or having some purpose contrary to intelligent discussion, when there is nothing at all to back that up.  That is as false a conclusion as any other!

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46 posted 02-01-2010 11:32 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ess, the word "you" when responding directly to a specific person is indeed personal. To have it followed by a derrogatory accusation, especially an inane one, has little to do with intelligent conversation. If you don't agree with that, that's fine.
Bob K
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47 posted 02-01-2010 12:33 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece
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48 posted 02-01-2010 12:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting, Bob.

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent.

I don't really understand that part and certainly don't agree with it.
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49 posted 02-01-2010 12:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

WASHINGTON—Taxes on high-income earners would rise by nearly $1 trillion over the next 10 years, under the budget plan put forward by President Barack Obama Monday.

The bulk of that tax increase comes as a result of the expiration at the end of 2010 of tax cuts enacted under President George W. Bush. Marginal income tax rates for people with incomes over $200,000, or $250,000 for married couples, will jump from 33% to 36%, or from 35% to 39.6%.

Capital gains and dividends will be taxed at 20% rather than 15% for people at those income levels.

Limits on upper-income people's ability to claim personal exemptions and itemized deductions will also snap back next year, without any action needed from Congress.

But as in last year's budget, Mr. Obama proposed Monday to go further by limiting the value of those benefits, which include deductions for mortgage interest and some charitable deductions, to 28% of the deduction. The highest-income earners under current law could lower their taxes by up to 39.6% of those deductions.

Fund managers would also see their partnership profits taxed at ordinary income rates, rather than the lower capital gains rate, under Mr. Obama's proposals. That plan has had trouble getting off the ground in the Senate, where lawmakers of both parties worry that a tax increase on so-called carried interest could harm entrepreneurship and investment. Supporters of the president's plan say it is unfair that fund manager pay should be taxed at a lower rate than wages.

Mr. Obama proposed reinstating the estate tax, which was repealed for one year on Jan. 1, at the levels in effect last year–or 45%, with an exemption for estate wealth under $3.5 million–and extending those rates permanently.

He proposed putting limits on the use of family trusts that have helped wealthy families lower their estate tax liabilities, which the White House estimates would increase government revenues by $23.7 billion over 10 years.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204575039132987274858.html?mod=rss_whats_news_us&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wsj%2Fxml%2Frss%2F3_ 7011+%28WSJ.com%3A+What%27s+News+US%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo
 
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