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Passions in Poetry

Let everyone believe

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Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


25 posted 03-12-2009 12:44 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
Our difference from the animals may not be physical but intellectual, or metaphysical. Perhaps that "life" God breathed into man is our hope and faith and that is what sets us apart.


I agree for the most part.  But I think you are a bit mistaken in saying it is the "life" God breathed into man that set him apart in the bible, for that life is also in other animals, by which they are called living souls as well.  But the book does say that Elohim made man in likeness to him and that he should rule over the animals.  Therefore the myth about Adam doesn't seem to see him as set apart by having life and being a soul, but rather because he is made in a likeness to God and is supposed to have a higher "role".  

Stephanos
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26 posted 03-12-2009 01:08 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Turtle
quote:
I must be a middle if the road agnostic cause I know I don't know...


Yes, but before you said its not possible to know who or what God is, which is saying more than "I know I don't know".

quote:
But what is this you're saying to Essorant??? Are you now saying you support evolution?

Quote:
I am not suggesting that Genesis does in fact describe Evolution.  But I am suggesting that it may very well accomodate it


No, I don't support Evolution.  I am saying that Genesis is a Theologically didactic text, not primarily written or intended to convey the detailed scientific "how" of creation.  And in that sense, it may accomodate Evolution.  That doesn't mean that Evolution is true.  It does mean that by believing in Evolution, a person doesn't elude the Theological/cosmological implications of Genesis thereby.  If Evolution were true, what it has produced would still acutely demand the Theological question.

There have been Theistic-Evolutionists whom I have greatly respected from a spiritual perspective.  For example, C.S. Lewis seems to have been such ... though he did express some doubt of the science later, in some of his correspondence.  

Whether you agree or no, does that clear things up, on what I'm trying say?


Later,

Stephen
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


27 posted 03-12-2009 01:47 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
I am not suggesting that Genesis does in fact describe Evolution.  But I am suggesting that it may very well accomodate it, if we see it as the kind of Near-Eastern Literature that it is ... Theologically didactic rather than Western Scientific.  That's not to say that it doesn't speak of true history, but that it is far from standard historical narrative.


I still don't see the room for much agreement.  All animals and Adam and Eve are said to be created by God without a suggestion of any branch of animals evolving into different animals that were not already created. Isn't that more of an exclusion of evolution than an accomodation of it?

turtle
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since 01-23-2009
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Harbor


28 posted 03-12-2009 02:03 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Wouldn't it depend on what is meant by "life"? In the latter creation in Genesis, God takes the dust of the earth and creates man, then breaths into his nostrils the breath of life. Why would he breath the breath of life into his nostrils? Why not put that "life" into man's heart or fill that man with the "blood" of life. A man also needs a heart and blood to exist just as much as he needs the air of the earth to breath. Perhaps if we look at the philosophy of this religion we might consider that this "life" is the "Everlasting Life" that is offered by the Bible. This everlasting life comes from one's faith that this particular God exists. Metaphorically the "nostrils" might be seen as a direct conduit into the mind.  and this breath of life is our faith.

What do you suppose the likeness of God is? I think we can all agree that God is not a physical being and man is, so I don't think the Bible means a physical likeness. I think we have the ability to believe in a God, maybe animals do not. Maybe this "life" that God breathed into man is the "everlasting life" found in our faith. Maybe this everlasting life is the thing that is in likeness to the everlasting life of God.

Of course this is just conjecture and as Balladeer points out I might be just another Toerag......

While I'm philosophizing here though. I am fascinating by how the findings in the fossil records and our understanding of evolution, may parallel what is said in the Bible. In the first creation, (the first seven days) when God starts creating living things, he first creates the fish of the sea and the birds of the air. then he creates the rest of the living creatures. Last he creates man. In the fossil record we find that the fish of the sea and the reptiles (That became birds of the air) came first in the fossil record. Then the mammals (The other creatures) evolved. Then the last thing in the order of evolution to come into existence is man. Maybe just a coincidence, but and interesting parallel none the less.

Stephen - I was teasing you.


[This message has been edited by turtle (03-12-2009 04:59 PM).]

Grinch
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since 12-31-2005
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Whoville


29 posted 03-12-2009 04:46 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
agnostics David Berlinski or William Dembski


Agnostic?

“My thesis is that the disciplines find their completion in Christ and cannot be properly understood apart from Christ ... The point to understand here is that Christ is never an addendum to a scientific theory but always the completion. ”

"The Designer of intelligent design is, ultimately, the Christian God."

“Ultimately I want to see God get the credit for what he’s done“

William Dembski - Creationist

.
Stephanos
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Statesboro, GA, USA


30 posted 03-12-2009 09:39 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Grinch,

You're quite right about Dembski, that was a bungle on my part.  It was Bradley Monton who is also an agnostic who supports ID, and is a dissenter of Darwinism, in addition to the lovable Berlinski.

My point is, not all criticism of Darwin has come from religious motivation.  I could just as easily say that much support of evolution comes from a precommitment to metaphysical atheism ... though the link between ID and religious sentiment is a much better corollary.

Stephen  
Stephanos
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31 posted 03-13-2009 08:55 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant:
quote:
I still don't see the room for much agreement.  All animals and Adam and Eve are said to be created by God without a suggestion of any branch of animals evolving into different animals that were not already created. Isn't that more of an exclusion of evolution than an accomodation of it?


You're a wordsmith Ess, and a student of literary types right?  Consider the style of ANE literature, and ask if accomdation is possible or likely.  If you say "no", I still think you may be projecting a Western-minded analytical approach onto the text.  Even the ancients knew that days were measured by the sun, and yet that wasn't created until day four.  To me, it seems not to be a systematic account of how, concerned with logistics, but a creative communication of the breathtaking fact of God's handiwork in commencing his world, and the characters on his stage.


This admittance of possible accomodation, coming from someone who doesn't even believe in Evolution.  


Stephen
 
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