How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Would you?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Would you?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


25 posted 12-21-2008 02:34 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ron: "Does God want me to kill little kids?"

Grinch: Why not?

It's not a question of why or why not, Grinch? It's a question of does.

You might as well ask, "Does God want to me to smell blue?" The question makes little sense and an answer of "Why not?" makes less.

You're just perpetuating the paradox.

quote:
She lets lots of them die every day so sheís canít be that attached to them plus theyíre going to a better place, arenĎt they?

Yes, God allows people free will.

You're right, also, about the perceived significance of death. In both the Christian world and the secular one, there are things much worse than death.

quote:
... because God would never ask you to do something unless he had a pure reason for doing so - even killing 2 years olds

Again, Moon, you're just perpetuating the paradox.

Would you kill two-year-olds if you discovered you already did?

Did you enjoy it?

The real question being asked, of course, is: Would God ever contradict Himself?
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


26 posted 12-21-2008 03:31 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
"Does God want to me to smell blue?"


Well if god actually commanded me to smell blue Iíd have to concede that she did indeed want me to do it - Iíd also have to presume she Ďd have the power to allow me to do so.

If god commanded me to ďkill kidsĒ then evidently she does want me to do it.

quote:
Would God ever contradict Himself


Iíve no idea, would she even be contradicting herself? Sheís never told me directly NOT to kill toddlers, so whereĎs the contradiction.  There are those that might say that she wouldnít want me to kill toddlers but how do I know theyíre telling the truth? I just know sheís all knowing and all powerful and if she commanded me to do something IĎd be a little stupid not to do it.

quote:
You're just perpetuating the paradox.


I donít see the paradox Ron, can you explain?

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


27 posted 12-21-2008 03:48 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Moonbeam
Sorry, I didn't see your last comment to me.  I will be back to respond later today.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


28 posted 12-21-2008 04:05 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Sheís never told me directly NOT to kill toddlers ...

Well, that clearly explains your confusion, then. God has told me not to kill.

Is it possible you got the same message and just weren't listening?

quote:
I just know sheís all knowing and all powerful and if she commanded me to do something IĎd be a little stupid not to do it.

The paradox inevitably arises, Grinch, because you only know that God is all-knowing and all-powerful, without any real understanding of what those qualities mean. Human comprehension, and especially human language, is necessarily finite. How do you squeeze the infinite into a finite sized container?

Can God create a stone too heavy for Him to lift? Can God make a vehicle move so fast He can't catch it? Can God bake a cake so large He can't eat it? Can God formulate a proof of His own non-existence? The list just goes on and on and on. Your question is no different from these, only better disguised.


moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


29 posted 12-21-2008 05:00 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

(Sorry, there's been a lot of replies while Christmas was busy interfering - apologies in advance if I'm covering old ground)


Ron

I think Grinch's original question assumes an omnipotent and omniscient God, and whether you resolve the paradox with some kind of linguistic gymnastics or merely say that if God is omnipotent then he can remove his omnipotence, but provide a secret way to restore it again when he finds himself not omnipotent, for the purposes of the question he IS all knowing all present all powerful.  

The question also assumes that the order to kill comes from God - whether you  prefer to take a faith based approach or an evidential approach to establishing this, is irrelevant.  As I see it all the question does is to seek to establish whether a Christian man exercising free will would ignore an order from God that he felt was immoral (although clearly it wouldn't be immoral because God doesn't issue immoral orders).  The answer for a true Christian is obviously that he wouldn't ignore it.  Just as Abraham readied the knife to kill his son, so the true Christian would be ready to kill the children.  All this of course becomes rather immaterial if you believe that the omnipotence of God precludes the concept of "free-will".

And of course in my view the whole issue is nonsensical in any case, because you are right.  A plausible "being" of absolute power and infinite capacities (if indeed it exists at all) would "exist" outside of all material dimensions and, at present I'm inclined to think, would be the only "reality", and would have no "knowledge" of our material existence.

The answer to: "Does God want me to kill little kids" then simply becomes; "it doesn't matter" or some such.

moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


30 posted 12-21-2008 05:15 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


quote:
Request and command are two different things, Moonbeam. Check your usage.


Nah Regina that doesn't wash   .  You really wanna argue when a guy with a sub-machine gun "requests" you to put your hands up rather than "commands" you?!  

Part of being a good Christian is surely doing what God asks you to do, no?
quote:

No, I don't personally think it's wrong to kill toddlers. It is wrong and against the law, and if taken out of context Grinch's statement could land him a visit from a cyber-crime division, especially if an alarming amount of toddlers fell subject to harm in his immediate area of IP.

And the title holder for disobedience will never be Me. Eve has been blamed for the downfall of all since the beginning of time.

So yeah, get ready for a new breed of harm if I'm ordered to kill kids by God. I will not comply and we'll just all have to deal with it.


Geez, don't let's confuse the legal, the moral, the divine and heaven knows what else.  

Well if you aren't prepared to do God's bidding Regina then I guess you consider Him to be fallible.  I'm not sure where that leaves you in the "good christian" stakes - maybe Stephen could help out there?
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


31 posted 12-21-2008 05:36 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
God has told me not to kill.


You talked to god and she specifically told you not to kill?

Are you sure it was god Ron? Karen has a friend.. Never mind.

quote:
Is it possible you got the same message and just weren't listening?


Iím pretty sure Iíve never spoken directly to god, or her to me, but I suppose that  itís possible that I could be wrong, then again so could you.

The paradox?

Iím not asking god to do anything paradoxical Ron, in fact Iím not asking her to do anything she hasnít already proved herself quite capable of, if Abraham and Issac are anything to go by.

If itís any easier though we can use that example if you like:

If god commanded you to kill your firstborn son, would you?

Iím with Abraham on this btw, with or without the interceding angel.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


32 posted 12-21-2008 05:58 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Regardless of the answer, regardless of your belief system, regardless of your faith or doubt,

you have to make the decision.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


33 posted 12-21-2008 06:59 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Regardless of the answer, regardless of your belief system, regardless of your faith or doubt,

you have to make the decision.

But that's the whole point, Brad. You don't have to make the decision. Just as I don't have to decide whether I should or shouldn't believe that God can create a rock too heavy for Him to lift. It's a meaningless hypothetical.

However, for the sake of discussion, let's pretend it had any meaning, that it was in some way possible?

I think I would have to put Grinch's hypothetical in the same realm as most life and death questions. Would you give your own life (give, not risk) for someone else (pick your own someone)? As much as I suspect we'd all like to believe we'd do the most noble thing, I honestly think the only people who can answer that question are either dead or grieving. Would you want to live if you couldn't walk? Anyone who answers that question too quickly probably isn't to be believed. We can talk about possibilities that involve life and death all day long, but I very strongly suspect the answers are no less hypothetical than the questions.

In other words, when and if God taps me on the shoulder, I'll get back to you.

quote:
If itís any easier though we can use that example if you like:

If god commanded you to kill your firstborn son, would you?

With the prior caveat that my answer can be no more meaningful than the question, sure I'll play the game.

I've known a handful of women in my life who, perhaps through sheer force of femininity, made it absolutely impossible for me to ever deny them anything. I could never say no to them. I know in retrospect that was as much a testament to my weakness as to their strength, but even today, even knowing that, it does little to lessen the power they had.

If one could say no to God, I think that would be proof it wasn't really God.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


34 posted 12-21-2008 07:25 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, okay, it's a hypothetical. Okay, we don't know how we would answer it, but I'm still stuck with the idea that religion is sometimes presented as a way out of the existential dilemma (though nobody who posts here regularly has done so to my knowledge or memory).

"Terrible freedom" or "free will" is with you as long as you are a competent, thinking being. Religion isn't going to get you out of it.

It just doesn't matter if God is omniscient, you aren't.

That's the dilemma, is it not? And that I think is what the question is trying to highlight. Not the nature of God, but the nature of us.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


35 posted 12-21-2008 07:42 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


That was harder than pulling teeth Ron!

As it happens I donít think there is a right or wrong answer. I think Brad, Moon and even Abraham had it about right. Itís not about the nature of god, itís about the nature of the individual and the extent of their faith.

rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


36 posted 12-21-2008 08:09 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
Nah Regina that doesn't wash. You really wanna argue when a guy with a sub-machine gun "requests" you to put your hands up rather than "commands" you?!


Yeah, God, Gangster, no matter. Bring it On. God would be pretty half-cocked anyway to ask ME to kill all the toddlers on earth. How long do you think that would take? Thatís a lot of work. I mean Iíd need some youth back in me bones to really mean business. And would that mean all kids from the time I was asked, even after they passed the age of two, or just the ones I get to before their 2nd birthday?? Do I get to have a posse? A jet? Dare Force One. LOL.

quote:
Part of being a good Christian is surely doing what God asks you to do, no?


You are basing your assumption on a hypothetical visit from God who asks me to kill all kids below the age of two. I guess my question to you would be, would you let me? I mean God didnít speak to you, just me cuz Iím Shpecial, and that means you  (and the rest of the world) would have to believe my account to be true so that I could perform my murdering spree. And remember, if you donít let me, ALL of mankind will suffer, INCLUDING non-believers, by your argument. Youíre right. Thank, God, Iím just not that special, Moonbeam.

quote:
Well if you aren't prepared to do God's bidding Regina then I guess you consider Him to be fallible.


Do we need to take a vote, or can we all say that the God concocted in this theory is fallible? Donít make me feelÖso alone, Moonbeam. Iím not feeling any love.

quote:
I'm not sure where that leaves you in the "good christian" stakes - maybe Stephen could help out there?


Iím sure thatís itís neither your place to decide nor Stephenís. Despite the respect that I have for both of you, what you think does not define me, especially in the eyes of God.

How can I ask God to watch over my beautiful baby grand daughter and be prepared to harm her for God at the same time?

That would make me a complete oaf of an Oma.    
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


37 posted 12-22-2008 12:33 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Moonbeam

quote:
I think it's a pretty fine distinction to say that God can order up an evil deed and yet be pure as the driven snow.  In fact I'm not sure I accept that distinction


Indeed,  nuns sometimes do evil too, despite their role, and great rulers despite their role and their high power.  Nor one's role, nor knowledge, nor power determines how one uses the role, knowledge, or power.  Children that have far less knowledge and power may still often do more virtuous things than many very knowledgeable and powerful politicians.   But even children sometimes do some of worst evils as well.   Just as these do evil sometimes, and despite their role, knowledge or power, I doubt not, God probably does too to some extent.  And if our portrayals of God have any truth, I don't think they suggest much otherwise.  Which religious book doesn't include God doing anything that you find evil?  The same God that preaches "thou shalt not kill" didn't practice what he preached when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, whole cities of people.  

quote:
But in any case you're sidestepping the important point which is that by saying what you are saying you are setting yourself up as the arbiter of what is good and what is evil rather than God.


Neither my judgement nor God's judgement is automatically better or worse, but it is better or worse by the evidence itself.  If I were your neighbour and God your other neighbour and betwixt us you were seeking advice on how to grow a garden well, if I told you to water and tend it thus and thus, but God told you to burn it down every week and never water it, the evidence of the garden itself shall tell you the truth of whose judgement is better.  But even before that, the knowledge of the evidence will tell you, even if that knowledge is very small.  One doesn't need to much about gardens to know enough against such an extreme as I suggested, or as Grinch suggested in his question.  

My judgement would not be worse because I am not God, but it would be better because it is true by the evidence and God's judgement would not be better because he is God, but worse because it were false by the evidence.

moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


38 posted 12-22-2008 02:56 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
If one could say no to God, I think that would be proof it wasn't really God.

Ron, only if that God was the God that you (and possibly I) recognise.  Clearly, God for many Protestant Christians (because I happen to know) despite being all good and all powerful is apparently prepared to "allow" sin, sickness, free will, human autonomy.  He would therefore presumably be prepared to allow a "no"?
quote:
It's not about the nature of god, it's about the nature of the individual and the extent of their faith.


Absolutely Grinch, but Ron was just trying to make it more interesting.
quote:
How can I ask God to watch over my beautiful baby grand daughter and be prepared to harm her for God at the same time?

You can't Regina .  I hope you know I've been using "you" generically.  You are quite right in what you say about the law and human morality of course.  I hope you have a peaceful Christmas btw .
quote:
Indeed,  nuns sometimes do evil too, despite their role, and great rulers despite their role and their high power.  Nor one's role, nor knowledge, nor power determines how one uses the role, knowledge, or power.  Children that have far less knowledge and power may still often do more virtuous things than many very knowledgeable and powerful politicians.   But even children sometimes do some of worst evils as well.   Just as these do evil sometimes, and despite their role, knowledge or power, I doubt not, God probably does too to some extent.  And if our portrayals of God have any truth, I don't think they suggest much otherwise.  Which religious book doesn't include God doing anything that you find evil?  The same God that preaches "thou shalt not kill" didn't practice what he preached when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, whole cities of people.  

Your making the perennial mistake of this thread Ess and assuming the wrong type of God a fallible God, which then renders the question pointless.  What "I" or "you" find evil is irrelevant.  The Christian God we're talking about here can't do evil by His very nature.  Ask Stephen!  If he destroyed Sodom, that wasn't evil, it had some overriding good purpose, even if the inhabitants had problems seeing it.  As for the nuns, the children, the kings and princes - of course they can do evil, they are sinners by the tenets of the Christian faith.

Sure if you want to start with a fallible God that's fine, but then the answer to the question is obviously no.
quote:
Neither my judgement nor God's judgement is automatically better or worse,

Again, you are talking about a fallible God.  I have no problem with your line of reasoning once you admit that.  

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


39 posted 12-22-2008 08:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting that there are so many replies on such a topic.

I'd need an example of how an entity could offer irrefutable proof. To me that conjecture is so far out of the realm of possibility that it makes the question baseless.

About the only place where a god seemed to offer proof of his existence was in the Bible and look what happened there. He fed Moses' followers in the desert with food from nowhere. THAT could make me lean toward evidence he was God. Did they all become pious and holy? Nope, they went back to complaining in no time. He set the plagues in motion against Herod, after announcing He would do so. THAT would get my attention. Did it get the Jews' attention? Not for long.

After all of the miracles seen firsthand by these people, when Moses went into the wilderness and brought back the commandments, they had reverted back to heathen ways, complete with worshipping false idols, drunkeness, debauchery, etc....after having SEEN proof many times that they were following the creator of the universe, the entity that could snuff them out with a thought and who controlled their after-life destinies!

Sorry but your "irrefutable proof" insertion makes the question Rod Serling material to me.

Besides, if SHE stood before me and claimed to be God, I would remind her that the divorce has been final for years
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


40 posted 12-22-2008 08:29 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
He would therefore presumably be prepared to allow a "no"?

Moon, I wasn't talking about what God would accept, but rather how any mortal would necessarily respond when face to face with profound infinity. If I was hesitant to say no to a woman I loved finitely, how much more reluctant would I be in the presence of infinite love? Personally, I don't think it would even be possible.

Let me put it another way.

Why would God hide himself from His creation? Perhaps it's because free will can only exist in the presence of doubt. When one "knows" something with absolute and utter conviction, choices become much more limited.
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


41 posted 12-22-2008 08:42 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Thanks Moonbeam, I wish for you the same

And yes, I know. Me, too.

I'm really impressed that we can have such exchanges in this forum (considering the subject) without ugly attacks and abuse toward the other. I appreciate that everyone. I mean, my first initial and very female emotional response was OMG that would mean my grand baby!! And no matter how I might try to keep my motherly protective nature out of the equation, I see myself more ready to protect the babes (by my own subjective proxy) instead of being an agent to an objective task I'm to fulfill for God...and failing, possibly even by God's wiring of me and others who would also, hopefully, get in the way. So no God that I know would order such of thing of me that would be more than I can bear. Maybe I'd be allowed a deal? The babes or Bush's WMD's? ROFL.

anywho, Happy Monday All, if there is such a thing.

reg

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


42 posted 12-22-2008 11:38 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Moonbeam,

If God is absolutely "omnipotent", able to be or do anything, then you must also grant  that he and his will are just as omnipotently able to be fallible.  He would need to be limited in ability if he and his will and choices were only able to be infallible.

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


43 posted 12-22-2008 12:11 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Folks talk a lot about Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son and they forget the point of the story.

     The story is not an end in itself, as people seem to take it here, but is the story that introduces the covenant story, God's bargain with Israel and ó I think ó with the world.  Jews mark the Covenant with circumcision because they believe it is a blood bargain.  They tie it with their survival as a people.  It's very powerful and very primitive all at the same time, whatever your other feelings about the deal may be.

     In return for their loyalty, which as Mike pointed out above, has been flawed uneven and silly, not to mention sinful as that of even the most flawed, sinful and silly of non-Jews, God said that he would never again demand the sacrifice of human beings for Him.  Other things as well, but that's the one that seems to apply here.  God does not ask this of us, the death of two year olds or the death, really, of anybody, if we are to believe the Torah and the books that have entered the Judeo-Christian canon since then.  If we kill, we must take responsibility for that ourselves, and we must live with that.  No fair blaming it on folks with irrefutable proof that that have a bridge to sell you from here to Salvation if only you kill some two your olds for him.

     If you are to believe the Christians, when Jesus died, he died for your willingness to say, No, and to treat that child as you yourself would wish to be treated.  As Rabbi Akiva said you should wish to be treated.  And as Confucious said you should wish to be treated.
Odds are much much higher that if somebody appears to you, shows absolute proof that they're God, then demands that you should start killing kids, you should start taking your medication again and make another appointment with your therapist.

     Really, guys, what are the odds?

     About paradoxes, if one looks at Bertrand Russell's Theory of Logical Types, you'll note he offers the rather practical suggestion that paradox seems paradoxical because it is a confusion of levels of meaning, and that once the confusion about level and meta-level is straightened out, the paradox tends to vanish as the linguistic artifact it generally is.  "Can God make a stone so heavy He cannot lift it?" for example, suggests, that God may be bound by thought or language at all, while only our ability to conceptualize God is captured here.  We are confusing the picture of the thing for the thing itself, sort of an intellectual Cargo Cult, and are trying magically to pretend the manipulations we effect on the language must be the same as those that apply in reality.

     If there is a God at all, of course.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


44 posted 12-22-2008 12:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
We are confusing the picture of the thing for the thing itself, sort of an intellectual Cargo Cult, and are trying magically to pretend the manipulations we effect on the language must be the same as those that apply in reality.



Well, how is one distinguished from the other?  If we put the picture away, where and what is God?  I mentioned in another thread that the weather man may use arrows to represent winds, but when we go to the winds themselves they are not flying around as arrows!  And similarily if we represent the wind as a god, such as Boreas.  What do we have left when we no longer use our art and imagination to represent something as "God"?  In which way don't we have something such as "wind" that some men may likewise use arrows on a map or some more greatly use "God" to represent?  Do you think we would have something equal, or even better, if we stopped using our art and imagination?  I don't think so.  You might as well try to say the moutainous lands would be just as mountainous if you took away the mountains.  I don't think the problem is that we are referring to mountains of imagination, but that we pretend it would be better just to refer to some hidden mote upon which these mountains are piled.
 
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


45 posted 12-22-2008 01:48 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I'd need an example of how an entity could offer irrefutable proof. To me that conjecture is so far out of the realm of possibility that it makes the question baseless.


Do you mean that itís impossible for anyone to truly believe in god? Or simply that itís impossible for you personally to believe in god?

I think thereís enough evidence to suggest that some people would require very little evidence, there are numerous examples of people who believe without a shadow of a doubt that god exists based solely on what amounts to nothing more than hearsay.

Iím an atheist, which you could say makes me fairly sceptical, but even I can see myself accepting a god (or as near an approximation that makes no difference) given enough evidence. If she took me to witness the start and the end of the universe, created a new life form before my eyes, held the sun in the palm of her hand and convinced Denise that Obama is a natural born citizen Iíd be well on my way to believing.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


46 posted 12-22-2008 02:00 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant




Why this persistence with "she", Grinch?

If you prefer a beautiful Goddess such Venus, instead of an invisible blob of infinity, just say it.




Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


47 posted 12-22-2008 02:52 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Why not question the persistent use of ďheĒ?

I prefer to disbelieve in all gods with a certain measure of equality.

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


48 posted 12-22-2008 03:32 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Essorant,

          While I find myself mostly content with climbing maps, I find I have friends that actually want the workout that mountains themselves supply.  Should you wish to pray, I suspect you'd like the prayer to go further than the language and actually reach some more exalted destination, should there in fact be one.

     Perhaps not, from your reply, though.  I would have thought otherwise.  Mirabile dictu.  


Sincerely, Bob Kaven
moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


49 posted 12-22-2008 04:17 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
Moon, I wasn't talking about what God would accept, but rather how any mortal would necessarily respond when face to face with profound infinity.

So was I.  I was trying to highlight the inconsistency of a position that professes faith while simultaneously claiming a human freedom to act.
quote:
Why would God hide himself from His creation? Perhaps it's because free will can only exist in the presence of doubt.

What you're saying is that however much Stephen or Regina wanted to say "no" they wouldn't be able to in the presence of God, and the answer to Grinch's question was therefore "yes".  

Put another way you are suggesting that in order to have free will a Christian must have doubts about the existence of God?  Yet:

Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

So the faith that so many Christians profess is apparently being certain of what they do not see, or to use your words, "know[ing] something with absolute and utter conviction"

So, if you are correct either they have no free will or they do not have faith in the existence of God?  
quote:
Why would God hide himself from His creation?

Why would the unicorn hide from us?  

Surely in order that our enjoyment of fables be not spoiled.

Rather than constructing convoluted hypotheses about the machinations of an all powerful being to explain his invisibility I'm personally inclined to think that the explanation might simply be that he doesn't exist in the manner in which the majority of religious people think he exists.  
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Would you?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors