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Balladeer
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100 posted 12-18-2008 07:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Stephan Stephen, for what it's worth, I have renewed respect for you on several levels.

[This message has been edited by Ron (12-18-2008 08:30 PM).]

rwood
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since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


101 posted 12-18-2008 08:37 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Uh oh. For a second I thought I was on acid because I knew there was a post I responded to, but I donít do acid despite my passion for Pink Floyd, and then the thread just unraveled...sadly...

Is there any way to call a truce here for the sake of discussion or diplomacy? So that we donít all

Ēexchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage,Ē ???

I mean I think the flaming elements of this discussion deal with superiority complexes? And since even a Nobody can be right, Iíd like to be right enough for a humble moment of reflection:

Youíre right, VB. I didnít take you seriously, though I canít speak for any others that were addressed. Iím not easily offended and I think Iím able to hold my own. I think we exchanged something positive, regardless of what happened to the post. I did have more to say, but since I donít have an eidetic memory I apologize for not being able to reply properly to what you offered. I know you went into some issues about a New Age God and offered some authors/physicists aside from Feynman. Again, Iím stressed and pressed for time most days, which greatly affects my memory, too, but not to a degree that all was lost. I did laugh, and I valued the exchange. I am sad that wasnít case for all involved.

Thanks, Iíve had my say bout that, so really thereís no need for anymore attacks or somebodyís gonna bust a brain nut from all this fixational flexation. And yeah, yall can pick on me for making up words to try to describe whatís going on up in here.

Consider yourself lucky that Ron saved you from that slamtastic piece of mind I was going to give you, VB. (Not) And I didnít have any intentions of such, and I trust you will see the humor in that, but just so you know: Despite the neuro-nuclear fallout that seems to be taking place between some, everyone has put up with me for the past 10 years so they must be good-hearted, including Ron. (I'm sure it hasn't been easy)

Except for youuuuu, StephEn. Where are your manners?? Or did I miss your reply to me? Go ahead and overlook me for the new guy. Not even a hello. Pffft.

Anyway, on the N.A.G thing, Iím not Goldie Locks looking for the bed of religion that feels most comfy to me among the bears. I donít adhere to any system of religion though I donít denounce them either, unless Iím offered Kool-Aid or asked to pet someoneís snake. Iím equally claw-bearing to scientific theory that says I envy males for their penis, and those people that spray feces on canvas and call it art? Well they can hang that crap on their own walls! I have never claimed to completely understand any religion or the sciences or the arts. I stand in awe of the great Pyramid for it incorporates the energies of all 3. Slavery? or Voluntary group effort--which seems impossible.

Iím trying to experience all I can in learning and living, which means Iím going to go round and round with a lot of things before my pony breaks down, and again, I have a deep interest for phenomenon and maybe Iím in love with mystery and feel thereís a need for more magic, like touching someone without touching themÖ..or maybe not. An Ewww moment.
Stephanos
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102 posted 12-18-2008 08:54 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

rwood,

Hello.  

My apologies,

I was preoccupied with VB, as was everyone else.  

It was not at all intentional.

(BTW, I love Pink Floyd myself ... talk about existential!)


Stephen
rwood
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since 02-29-2000
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103 posted 12-18-2008 09:12 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

correction: make that almost 9 years. Can't count, nor measure either.

*epiphany!!*

maybe that's why I've never had any trouble getting marriage proposals.



forgive me

and how could I not forgive you Stephen??

Hey You!
Vestibular Bard
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since 12-11-2008
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104 posted 12-18-2008 09:48 PM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

quote:

Anyway, on the N.A.G thing, Iím not Goldie Locks looking for the bed of religion that feels most comfy to me among the bears. I donít adhere to any system of religion though I donít denounce them either, unless Iím offered Kool-Aid or asked to pet someoneís snake. Iím equally claw-bearing to scientific theory that says I envy males for their penis



Rwood, while I appreciate your good nature and peacemaking attempts, and the fact that you may very well be 'on acid'....I take the topic of science very seriously...and it's clear from your statement that you went to college in the 70s...since that time, science has modified it's theories, and you now envy men for the quality and quantity of expensive foreign sports cars they own, and the size of their investment portfolios.

I could recommend some serious scholarly research that supports this as 'predictable and repeatable'...but given this late hour, I suggest you just thumb thru the pages of Cosmo

Now then... the one thing you do seem to have very good taste in.. is music, as Pink Floyd may actually be god's other sons.
rwood
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105 posted 12-18-2008 10:14 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

LOL. Please donít delete his post.
Vestibular Bard
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106 posted 12-18-2008 10:51 PM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

Stephen...

I will reply to your thoughtful post soon...

...but I wanted to nip this in the bud.

quote:

You're probably politically liberal right?


Wrong...

quote:

  How do you like Ann Coulter's approach?


Ann Coulter is my girlfriend. I would appreciate it if you leave her out of our discussion.

[This message has been edited by Ron (12-18-2008 11:56 PM).]

moonbeam
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107 posted 12-19-2008 05:13 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
Stephen, for what it's worth, I have renewed respect for you on several levels.

Yes, I agree with that Mike.  For me, Stephen has been a far better advertisement for Christianity than even my late godfather the Bishop of Dover who spent many fruitless years and several hundreds of bottles of whisky trying to persuade me to regular communion.
rwood
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108 posted 12-19-2008 08:45 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I feel the same way, Moonbeam, except itís my Grandmother whoís still trying to persuade me, though no whiskey. Thatís the devilís drink, God love her. Stephen is a rare find in this world for me.

VB,

If Iíd attended college in the 70ís Iíd been a real babe.

Neither of the material things you listed are gender specific, and some may argue that the penis isnít either.

But, if Iím to envy anyone for anything it wonít be a car. Well, ok, I would have a brief weak moment over a cherry 68 Shelby Mustang GT500, but Iíd seriously trust that to be a very rare occurrence.

Iím not sure why Iíd envy someoneís investment portfolios, though If I could sell a man who thought thatís what made him special and Iíd actually get what he thought he was worth? Maybe, but the odds are already against him and that theory. Iíll take my time and give it some thought, since Nowís not a good time to sell anyway, so itíll be a while before Iíll be needing to jump on that bone.

Thanks and have a great Friday everyone,

reg
moonbeam
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109 posted 12-19-2008 09:36 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Yes, Regina, at first sight kinda weird: a Bishop wedded to the Malt Devil, but then again ...!
Vestibular Bard
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110 posted 12-19-2008 12:20 PM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

Apparently Ron, in a breathtaking display of his power over me, is simply going to continue to delete my posts, no matter what their content,  without any explanation, and despite that the people I'm posting to, who read them, appreciate them, and  are not the least bit offended by them. So, Reg or Stephan, when you get back, if you want to see my replies to you, please send me an email at this special Piptalk address:

imnotimmortal@gmail.com

I'm sure Ron will be deleting this as well.
moonbeam
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111 posted 12-19-2008 12:32 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
There really is no reason to even begin to discuss what self styled Ďphilosophers of mind' think about Ďepistemology', spirits, gods, or how and why they Ďthink' unless they are completely informed by the modern discoveries of the neurosciences.

The "discoveries of the neurosciences" are very nearly irrelevant, fortunately.  

quote:
How's this?
'You' are your brain, it's endless inputs, processes and outputs.

How is it?  It's totally wrong.

quote:
Here's a newsflash:

You can't figure out Ďyourself', and Ďhow and why' all the myriad specialized biological and cerebral processes come together to create ĎYou' and your Ďfeelings' and your Ďlove for peanut butter', by some casual introspection on a rainy Sunday.

Here's another newsflash:

I can.

(Except it would probably be a sunny Monday)
quote:
Hopefully by now, you have learned not to take things I say too seriously

Don't worry, I don't take anything you write seriously.
Ron
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112 posted 12-19-2008 01:49 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Apparently Ron, in a breathtaking display of his power over me, is simply going to continue to delete my posts, no matter what their content,  without any explanation ...

How many explanations do you think you need? Or, for that matter, deserve?

It's really not that complex and it shouldn't be that hard. Quit taking pot shots at people (you don't do subtle well enough to squeeze them by), quit crossing the line with much less than subtle sexual innuendo (your thread in Spiritual was moved to MC this morning), and quit being a jerk. Oh, wait a minute. That last one isn't against the rules, but then again, you apparently don't think the rules should apply to you any way. You're special and all that.

I've pretty much reached the end of my patience, Matthew. It's shouldn't be my job to follow you around the boards cleaning up behind you. Either grow up or get out; I no longer care which.


Dirt Roads Scholar
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113 posted 12-19-2008 03:01 PM       View Profile for Dirt Roads Scholar   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Dirt Roads Scholar

Being new here, I hesitate to intrude, but I suppose that's what forums like this are for; ostensibly cordial intrusions. I'm neither rocket surgeon, nor bard, but might qualify as a nominally literate techno-dud. I've visited a few different forums, mainly in search of answers for endless questions, and strengthening / dross burning, intelligent challenges to my beliefs, that are all too rare in person. There's been moderate success.

It's intriguing to see that Vestibular's peers are so proliferate, even (or especially?) on 'Christian' forums (CARM, for one example). Not only proliferate, but sycophantic, and of common demeanor. The same songs, in the same meter... with attitude. There seems to be nothing quite so literally maddening as blaspheming the sacred religion of Scientism.

At any rate, there's rarely all that much to learn beyond the standard un-caused cause, abiogenesis, literal doctrinaire materialistic atheism... vs. the superstitious peasants.... all with dripping, smarmy condescension. And we mustn't forget the universal and absolute refusal to address a proposition from the opposing perspective with anything substantive or on point - all the while demanding acquiescent forbearance for all materialistic presuppositions. Even when accommodated, the rebuttal is simply dismissed as foolishness, and then it's off on another bombastic pompous diatribe, demeaning the ignorant 'faith heads' for failing to comprehend weighty subjects such as, "Transgressing the Boundaries: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity", by physicist Alan Sokal.

I realize there's nothing really specific here. For what it's worth, I might be tempted to tilt at windbags for a short spell, until the vain exercise loses its charm. In the meantime, here's a short poem I ran across recently:

Atheism's Red Queen

[Edit - Sorry, but as writers, we try very hard to respect the copyrights of others. I'll leave the poem title and author, and anyone interested can look for the text of the poem in authorized formats. Ron


Vox Day

      

[This message has been edited by Ron (12-19-2008 03:54 PM).]

Vestibular Bard
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114 posted 12-19-2008 04:16 PM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

[Edit - That apparently didn't take long for you to decide. Bye. - Ron

[This message has been edited by Ron (12-19-2008 04:38 PM).]

Dirt Roads Scholar
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115 posted 12-19-2008 05:42 PM       View Profile for Dirt Roads Scholar   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Dirt Roads Scholar

Whoops. My bad.

see: "The Irrational Atheist", by Vox Day

BenBella Books

chapter VII, page 140

May those who love us love us,
And may God turn the hearts of those who don't.
And if He doesn't turn their hearts, may He turn their ankles,
So

Grinch
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Whoville


116 posted 12-19-2008 07:02 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
The Irrational Atheist


Iíve read it - itís not very good.

ďThe fact is that a professor at an elite university is as likely to be an atheist as a suicide bomber is to be MuslimĒ

This has to be one of the most intelligent and simultaneously unintelligent things in it.
Essorant
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117 posted 12-19-2008 07:47 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ron

I have to wonder how you deal with people in everyday life, where manners of communication often get a lot worse than this, especially among teenagers. If we all showed so little patience, none of us would learn to respect each other, but just look for the quickest way of shutting someone out so we would not need to help and deal with him or her only because it may be very difficult at first.  And it is still at first, especially considering how much time and chances many other "difficult" members were given.  Why couldn't you let the moderators moderate too, but instead you tried to do it all on your own,  became overwhelmed as it seems, lost your patience, and then took it out on someone that wellnigh just walked in the door?

  
Balladeer
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118 posted 12-19-2008 10:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Essorant, Ron certainly doesn't need my defense but I marvel at your comments.

I have to wonder how you deal with people in everyday life, where manners of communication often get a lot worse than this

I would assume that Ron deals with them in the same way I do - and possibly you. If their manners of communication are not to our liking, we simply walk away and ignore them. If they come into our house with insults or bad manners of communication we have them leave. VB came into the house in an insulting, ill-mannered way. He was turned away after several warnings.

just look for the quickest way of shutting someone out

Ron hardly looked at the quickest way of shutting him out. Actually, he showed a lot more restraint than I would have and let many personal insults aimed at him slide by without comment or reprimand.

instead you tried to do it all on your own,  became overwhelmed as it seems, lost your patience, and then took it out on someone that wellnigh just walked in the door?

Hard to believe we are talking about the same thread. I don't know ron well enough to know if anything on this planet can "overwhelm" him but I do know him well enough to know that nothing that happens on this site will. Lost his patience? Hardly. I'd say more like lost his desire to bang his head against a wall after constant attempts to communicate decently to the fellow and being answered with insults and sarcasm. Ron is also not the type to "take something out on someone". He gave the fellow every chance to come around until it was obvious that the fellow had no intention of adhering to site rules and policies.

I have no idea why you are taking on this attitude of painting ron as the abusive bully here and VB as the poor, unfortunate newbie who just happened to walk in the door at the wrong time. Your unsolicited criticism of Ron's actions are puzzling, to say the least. Ron could simply say, "It's my place. Do it my way or hit the door" but he doesn't. He tries to work with people, goes the extra mile to give people the benefit of the doubt in any given situation, and tries to explain what is expected of people here. At the same time, when he reached the point of knowing there is no use continuing, he acts. He tried to reason with VB and reached that point.  It took him much longer than it would have taken me.
Stephanos
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119 posted 12-19-2008 11:24 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

To any who said kind words about me, I thank you, though I don't deserve them.  My respect is yours as well.  

There were a couple of loose ends I wanted to tie up here, and respond to.  Maybe it was Brad or someone ... hmmm can't remember right now.  Too tired I guess.  Too bad VB is gone.  Didn't want to see it.  But I don't think Ron was rash, or failed to give chances.


I'll try again tommorrow.



Stephen    
Essorant
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120 posted 12-20-2008 12:39 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Balladeer

Yes he did look for the quickest way to shut someone out, in the end.  We know when Ron says "bye" in such a way he means "banned".   Banning doesn't help anyone deal with anything.  It just leaves an example of trying to make someone disappear, instead of actually dealing with the problem and actually learning respect between each other.  It is far from "every chance" when you give up on someone after only a week, and even further from being a "family" when the other members don't get any say about it either.  


Bob K
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121 posted 12-20-2008 04:26 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Essorant,

          Yes.

           But Mr. Bard was not interested in working-with, apparently, so much as in self-immolation.  He was virtually daring Ron to toss him out.  I doubt that Ron would think of himself as the victim here.

     I think of Ron as the victim here.  It feels to me that Mr. Bard used Ron for a suicide-by-cop sort of experience, so Mr. Bard could prove how shabbily he was being treated ó I hear the echo of the phrase "once again" reverberating in my ears ó by authority.

     Sometimes authority is bad in and of itself; often it's some guy who's doing the best he can do in a tough situation to keep the wheels from coming off.  Ron can be crusty, but he's hardly Mr. Authoritarian Personality, 2008.

     Sorry, Ron, if I'm stepping on any long cherished ambitions, but you're simply too willing to think the other guy might have something worth saying to make a really first rate dictator.  

     Even if our politics often clash, and I loath Ayn Rand; and I enjoy Heinlein's fiction, but not his social theory.  

     Mr. Bard was not actually addressing what other people were saying, and certainly not in in spirit for the most part of the way the were addressing him.  You can have that Religion/science conversation with reasonable affection and respect for each other.  Moonbeam and Stephanos both made great efforts to reach out to the man behind the contempt, but at this time the man was distracted and unavailable for reasons we may only speculate about.  Certainly Moonbeam and Stephanos made efforts to reach out, even though they were provoked; almost everybody did.  Perhaps Mr. Bard will be more available on a more generous level in the future, and he can disagree in a way that brings more of himself more generously to the table.

     He certainly voices a legitimate point of view.  He simply does it in such a way that makes it almost impossible to listen to or consider seriously.  You did very well to bear him like a gentleman for as long as you did, but in the end, as somebody who represents the site as a whole, you were required to defend the boundaries and the contractual obligations of the site and the membership.  These are the primary tasks of a leader, and they can be very burdensome at times.  I believe you did a hard job well, and I want to thank you for it.

     As I must thank Essorant for bringing up his doubts about things as well.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
moonbeam
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122 posted 12-20-2008 05:34 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

(Oops Bob posted while I was busy in my wp.  I agree with what he says too)

Ess

As you know in the past I haven't always seen eye to eye with Ron, especially on this "censorship" issue.  I have come to realise two things:

Firstly, that in the public forum we often only see part of the story.

Secondly, that forum life, while mirroring real life in some ways, differs from it in at least one important respect: someone with a dubious agenda always has a platform within a close knit restricted community.

In the present case I had the doubtful "pleasure" of having hours of spare time this last week to spend reading all the relevant posts and to do a little bit of further research, and I have no hesitation in saying that in this instance Ron was extremely forbearing.  

We can all be pompous and egotistical, dictatorial and impatient - I know I certainly am, but it's practically impossible for the owner of a site like this, if he takes an active role like Ron does, to avoid such a charge.  I mean Ron has irritated the hell out of me at times with what comes over occasionally as his condescending attitude, and I know I have given him a few of the same moments, but at the end of the day he's the guy who has to carry the can for the smooth running of the site.  And, given the level of freedom of expression that's allowed here, that's no easy responsibility.

You make the point that VB only had a week, and that Ron didn't give him as much time as other difficult members.  In point of fact I think the reverse of what you were implying should be the norm.  New members should actually be given far less time and rope than established members.  Look at it this way: an established member who has behaved ok and suddenly goes off the rails, or alternates good and bad behaviour has at least perhaps earned a little leeway for his good contributions.  In this case a new member pretty much opened the batting with replies often dressed up as "poetry" which were little more than attacks on members' beliefs.  He was asked to refrain from disrespectful comments on many occasions (including by you) and showed absolutely no intention of doing so, preferring instead to make the disrespectful comments and then pretend he was "only kidding" or "playing the thread for a laugh" as well as playing other members off against each other.  If somebody is going out of his way to show disrespect, and at the same time making only superficial attempts to engage in any exchange of ideas, you begin to suspect that the disrespect or the "having fun" is the main part of the agenda, at which point, if you are like me (which you and Stephen aren't), and have a fairly short fuse for that type of behaviour, you begin to play him at his own game, and then the whole fabric of the community relationships starts to unravel.  Ron could no doubt see the probability of that happening, and in my view, wisely called a halt.

Yes, it's sad to see someone as intelligent, and occasionally witty, as that banned, and in everyday life it would have doubtless have been possible to isolate him from being able to cause trouble to a whole community, and to work through the issues he clearly has.  But that's not possible here.  You either let well alone and risk the mayhem escalating, or you spend hours and hours as Ron no doubt did, clearing up and firefighting.  After a while that becomes mentally and physically impractical - so if the problem is continuing, showing no sign of abating after 150 posts, you reluctantly remove the problem.  And VB did have problems.  By his own admission, a mental illness which must have caused him a major challenge.  But, as I eventually realised, this is no environment in which to try and give someone in that frame of mind the help he needs.  

Finally, on the "family" thing.  What did you expect?  A ballot of members as to whether he should go or stay?  Which members?  A special committee?  How about the problem of dissemination of all the information they would have needed to make a fair decision?  I've never liked power without responsibility, and apart from being totally impractical, consulting members would be precisely that.  No, Ron (and maybe some mods) has the responsibility, he should also have the power imo.  That way we can blame him when things go wrong     .  In this case though I think he got it right.  
Dirt Roads Scholar
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123 posted 12-20-2008 07:45 AM       View Profile for Dirt Roads Scholar   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Dirt Roads Scholar

Grinch,

I'm singularly unimpressed by the efforts of the 'The Four Horse's Derrieres of the Atheocolypse' too (Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and Dennett). That's my opinion. I recognize your opinion of Mr. Day's book, but it is just an opinion. The quote from the book... it's in error? How about the same subjects (university professors), but substituting democrat, or liberal (I repeat myself) for atheist?

One of my favorite rebuttals to the 'new' atheists is David Berlinski's (agnostic university professor), "The Devil's Delusion".

I'll attempt a sample in the hope that I'm not, yet again, violating copyright, even though it's not a poem:

"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to understanding the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent
absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for the unsubstantiated just-so
stories, because we have a prior commitment to materialism ... materialism is absolute for we cannot allow a divine foot in the door." Darwinist Richard Lewontin of Harvard.

"Why should any discerning man or woman take the side of science, or anything else, under these circumstances? It is because, Lewontin
explains, "we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door." If one is obliged to accept absurdities for fear of a Divine Foot,
imagine what prodigies of effort would be required were the rest of the Divine Torso found wedged at the door and with some justifiable irritation demanding to be let in?"  "The Devil's Delusion", David
Berlinski

As more and more of the "Divine Torso" intrudes into the all 'natural' scientism parlor, the more comical the attempts to get the door slammed back shut. The self-existent universe that solves its identity crisis by evolving humans has been replaced, by an infinite number of universes
among which there's sure to be at least one without party crashing Deities barging in.
Grinch
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Whoville


124 posted 12-20-2008 10:07 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I recognize your opinion of Mr. Day's book, but it is just an opinion. The quote from the book... it's in error? How about the same subjects (university professors), but substituting democrat, or liberal (I repeat myself) for atheist?


Itís in error either way, or to be more exact the argument Day uses based on the quote is.

Day has tried to use two intelligent, but unconvincing, arguments from authority used by Dawkins in the God Delusion as an argument against Atheists by using an ad hominem argument against the authorities themselves instead of  challenging conclusions of those authorities.

Dawkins offered the argument that atheism must be right because lots of intelligent people believe hat itís right. The easiest and most intelligent counter to that argument from authority is that even intelligent people can get things wrong. Day avoids the easy answer though and instead decides to follow Dawkins into the a dark alley by attacking the intelligence of the (dis)believers.

Dawkins also pointed out in his book that suicide bombers were invariably religious, the supposed inference being that if you take away religion you take away suicide bombers - another fallacy. Day decided to take this one step further and specifically associate suicide bombing with Muslims. Again he didnít use the simple rebuttal that religion is only one convenient excuse among a whole heap of possible excuses and that man is just as  likely to use one of those if religion were unavailable. Instead he decided to take the opportunity to malign Muslims and, presumably, distance or elevate his own religion at the same time.

Yes, lots of intelligent people are atheists and lots of suicide bombers are religious, to recognise that fact is intelligent but trying to counter the assertion by attacking source of the data instead of the conclusion shows a fundamental lack of intelligence.

Both Day and Dawkins are preaching to the converted, Dawkins by attacking the purported evidence offered by his opponents, Day by trying to attack the intelligence of atheists.

It sort of fits nicely in this thread.

 
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