So, in this first paragraph alone, you've implied that I'm a fool, told me that I'm ignorant, informed me graciously that you are 'educating' me for my own good, gave me a sunday-school lesson in humility, and then justified it all by telling me that you wouldn't give me such condescending favors unless you thought I was "worth" it?
Stephan, first just let me sincerely apologize to you for any insult, real, or imagined, made seriously or sarcastically, by me, towards you, in this, or any thread.
In the reply you quote above, I did not call you ‘ignorant’, I said you made an “argument from ignorance”, which is a classic debating fallacy, and one that lies at the heart of the most basic, fallacious theological claim made by countless different religions, most of which you disagree with, with gods you don't believe in.
That fallacious argument, is:
I don't understand how something came to be, or what causes something in the universe, thus;
"My personal god did it"
And therefore the universe is a supernatural fantasyland, where my unseen personal god(s) are causing anything, and everything, to happen...or not..depending on their moods and what I sacrifice to them.
That fallacy has slowly but surely been rejected by the academic and scientific communities over the last few hundred years, and has filtered into the general population via education. Most theists in the Western world, don't typically blame their gods for the weather, or their wife being infertile, or their child being born with a genetic defect. But occassionally some still claim their gods are directing hurricanes towards specific 'sinful' American cities.
It was your poem, if you remember, that claimed those who didn’t subscribe to your religion, had no rational basis for explaining some unspecified ‘morality’, and that these people were in effect ‘blind’ in their ability to evaluate human behaviors like 'kindness and wrath'.
Meanhile you also claimed in your poem, that you, in your godly wisdom, were perhaps just 'poorly sighted', with regards to unspecified 'moral behaviors'. And it was also you, who graciously lamented that your fellow Christians could be quite the nasty, immoral ‘spiritual floggers’, and this concerned you.
But the solution you offered, was that you, Stephanos, and people like you, will be the ‘angry reformers’, who will somehow change all the floggers, and bring about some kind of unspecified 'moral reform'.
And I presumed the implication was, that we 'others', should abandon our own naturalist, Buddhist, Hindu, or atheist views, and all join your church, and help you in that mission..so we could all sing kum-by-ya together.
So in effect Stephan, it was you who called me, and every other person outside your religious beliefs, and especially all those people working and researching human behavioral science from a purely naturalist perspective, as “ignorant”, “blind” and in effect “wasting their time”. Because without your religiously inspired moral insights and triune godhead, well then, we simply don’t have any good reason not to rape our neighbor’s children…do we?
Perspective is a wonderful thing…wouldn’t you agree?
Above, you have been insulted by MY words and condescension, I certainly understand that, and I fully take responsibility for it. I was out of line, and again I want to sincerely apologize for that, and I promise that I will be much more sensitive in how I approach you, or this topic, ever again on this site. I'm planning on move onto to writing poems about 'sex' and 'politics' next, now that I have stirred up a sufficient hornet's nest in the religion category.
Hopefully, you too will gain some insight into how your poem, though I’m sure unintended by you, and possibly misinterpreted by me, could also be construed as extremely insulting to people who don’t hold your specific religious views, especially as they relate to how and why specific human judgments are formed around specific human behaviors.
Ignorance is something education can fix…what is the cure for blindness, Stephan? Mud and spit?
It’s clear to me that we have started off on the wrong foot, and I will take the blame for that. It’s also clear to me that this poor beginning has caused any future communication between us, on this topic, to be severely compromised and damaged. Again, I will take the blame for that, and apologize sincerely to you again.
While you were away, the site owner came to this thread, and made it clear to me that he found me quite annoying and that he had been ‘watching me’ and was considering banning me for my boorish behavior. This is his site, he has no doubt put incredible work and resources into it, and I appreciate that effort. I am a guest here, with no rights beyond what he graciously extends me, and it is my goal to comply with his wishes and try and be a bette guest in the future.
I actually really like this site. And the only reason I came here was to have some fun with poetry. There are many fine poets here, and many of them have been very gracious towards me and my work.
I actually very much enjoyed your poem. It was quite humble in its approach, and the form, structure and unique metaphors were well matched and executed.
I think you are a very talented poet Stephan, and please don't let my comments about the message, be misconstrued as a comment about your poetic talent. It was only the specific argument I found fallacious that raised my ire and caused me to respond. And I only did so, because I truly found your poem to be so well written, and humble.
If I was in your shoes, I would have written that exact same poem, and I would be very proud of it, as you should be. I am just here giving you a different perspective, but I admit to doing that poorly.
Getting into deep theological or philosophical discussions was certainly not my reason for coming here, and until Sea pointed it out, and you linked here, I didn’t know these fora existed.
So forgive me, but I think it best I don’t read the rest of your reply, as the scorpion in me might sting the frog, and we surely both would drown. If you want to carry on this discussion one on one, feel free to email me your response and I will reply with as much grace and measured temperament as a godless heathen can muster.