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Passions in Poetry

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Ron
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25 posted 12-16-2008 07:28 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Oops. That was an inadvertent typo. Uh, twice. Obviously, I meant to type VB, not VD.

You guys are buying this, right?
Brad
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26 posted 12-16-2008 07:34 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I'll buy that for a dollar.

(C'mon guys, I'm trying to read this seriously, but you (Which you? That you? The singular you? The plural? The formal?) keep forcing me to write cheap movie allusions!)
Brad
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27 posted 12-16-2008 07:50 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Maybe I should post this in Open but I just want to say that I think the poem is great!

What Stephan does is use a geological time scale to make a theological point:

quote:
You sound as if you’re sure
your morals too are really more
than just vermiculate markings
on a dust-laden floor
inside a structure that only seemed
like it was once somebody's house
And though we are just babes
with rattlers in our mouths
It is better to grow up
even an angry reformer
of a faith gone far afield
than as one who can find
no basis at all for being
either wrathful or kind
or why even poor eyes are deemed
better than blind


Yes, I had to look up vermiculate, but if you see this and the 'poor eyes' (both arguments used perennially in the evo./ creo. debate), you see what he's doing here. The whole babe thing isn't a slap at all. On the geological scale we still are babes.

And just for the record, Freeman Dyson says much the same thing somewhere--I forget where exactly.
Vestibular Bard
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28 posted 12-16-2008 08:25 PM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

quote:

Oops. That was an inadvertent typo. Uh, twice. Obviously, I meant to type VB, not VD.


Would this be the proper forum to ask for my piptalk name be officially change to:

'Vitriolic Discharge'?

You could also just call me "mildly talented troll" for giggles...

That way Ron could continue to call me VD, and he, moonbeam, Stephen Hawking and Barry Manilow, could continue their important reconciliation work, in inspecting entangled quarks or strings for the "Made by YHWH" stickers.

I realize that math gets awfully tricky at that scale....the fonts are really hard to read.

In the meantime, I have no problems with Stephan, or anyone else, I relish the diversity of my species thoughts and beliefs, you are all my muse.
Vestibular Bard
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29 posted 12-16-2008 08:30 PM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

Garsh...now I got two Administrators, two or three moderators, and the Site janitor all in this thread inspecting my sardonic musings...

I guess there's no chance of me blazin' up a doob right now, with the MAN so thick in here...
SEA
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30 posted 12-16-2008 09:05 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

ok really. Is this necessary? you are acting like my kids over here and I don't like it from them.

no hitting below the belts...play nice...

seriously.
Vestibular Bard
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31 posted 12-16-2008 09:32 PM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

Your kids gettin' any kewl toys for Christmas?

It's never too late to adopt me...
SEA
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32 posted 12-16-2008 09:41 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

I have older kids and they are spoiled rotten...
Stephanos
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33 posted 12-16-2008 10:39 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Wow,

I go on a day trip, and come back, and there are 32 replies in a day and sheer pandemonium! (a chuckle and a shaking of the head)  Don't have time to respond to anything yet.  I'll let this one stew a bit longer.  

Stephen
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34 posted 12-16-2008 10:43 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Look what you started, Stephanos?  
Stephanos
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35 posted 12-17-2008 12:45 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

VB:
quote:
I don’t suffer fools well, and I’m going to be very pointed in this reply, demonstrating why you are wrong and also why you made an argument from ignorance in your poem. Please try not to take this as insult, it is meant to be a brief effort in education and perhaps a lesson in humility for you. I wouldn’t make this effort, if I didn’t think you were ‘worth it’…from what I’ve read, I do think that.


So, in this first paragraph alone, you've implied that I'm a fool, told me that I'm ignorant, informed me graciously that you are 'educating' me for my own good, gave me a sunday-school lesson in humility, and then justified it all by telling me that you wouldn't give me such condescending favors unless you thought I was "worth" it?  

I guess "Thank you" is the only thing I can say.    

Seriously though, I'll take your own advice and not take anything you say too seriously.  Ironically, what was so humorous about this is that you really seemed serious, like you really thought you were being gracious.  

Now a return to the subject matter(s) at hand:


quote:
First of all, my reply wasn’t ‘ideological’, it wasn’t my personal ‘philosophy’, it was factual and precise in its accusations of your mistakes.


Sorry but I think the tone of your posts belie your claim of 'not personal'.  

But if you're keen on facts, you should be able to recognize that questions concerning atheism, God, and Philosophy, always have more to do with ideology and personal beliefs than with mere facts (though I don't deny that 'facts' play a part)  But no one interprets the "facts" without their grid of presuppositions.  I am arguing that one set of presuppositions is better than another, and makes the most sense of what we see and know. I won't resort to the silly claim that my beliefs are all about incontrovertible "fact", while yours are wholly subjective, before the discussion even gets going.

quote:
First of all Stephan, who is the ‘your’ in your second sentence?
Please be specific.


It is not a specific "your" but refers more generally those who are offended by examples of Christian failure (at best) or out and out hypocrisy (at worst), and likewise who are tempted to agnosticism (at best) or atheism (at worst).  I have encountered many in life, whom this describes.  The author of a poem reserves complete autonomy to go no further than that general description, just like you need go no further than your general description of the "smug religious" in your poetry.  Are you serious about demanding a specific person for what is an obvious group reference, or are you quibbling?


quote:
Instead of getting bogged down in responding to ever more layers of your fallacious crock of empty rhetoric in this reply, and having to deal with the ever so eloquent, simpleton musings of the world’s favorite Christian fantasy writer, theologian and philosopher…C.S. Lewis... Instead of getting bogged down in responding to ever more layers of your fallacious crock of empty rhetoric in this reply, and having to deal with the ever so eloquent, simpleton musings of the world’s favorite Christian fantasy writer, theologian and philosopher…C.S. Lewis...

I will simply go back to your poem and use it to ask you some Socratic questions



To call C.S. Lewis a simpleton simply drops my jaw.  Even his fiercest philosophical adversaries (who themselves were very intelligent) were not so boorish to say it, and knew quite better than to think it.  It would be like me saying that Bertrand Russell and Aldous Huxley were simpletons.  Ron is right about some things becoming a stopgap for persuasive ability.  Don't undersell yourself, I know you can do better.


And as far as the poem goes, your method of critique (which just about falls on every word) would rather lead me to explain the poem to you in a nutshell (BTW, this summary is summarized in my above repies to you which you have chosen not to respond to)

The ideas in poem are as follows:


1. Some irreligious people are offended and angry at religious failure/ hyprocisy.

2. Their anger (a form of moral indignation) is correct.

3.  This anger and moral conviction is better explained within a Theistic pardigm where absolute moral law exists that is transcendent of human beings.

4.  This anger and moral conviction is not best explained deterministically, either as biologically determined, and/ or socially conditioned.  Such explanations undermine the validity of any protest.

5.  Therefore it would be better to aim at setting right (beginning with oneself) a faith gone awry, than to adopt a philosophy which offers no clue why their moral "ought" concerning the thinking or behavior of the Church (or anyone else's for that matter), is anything other than "is" ... anything other than another flavor swirl in the grand paradox.  [note- the word 'flavor' was not frivolous choice, but was meant to denote that morals must become entirely preferential to be consistent with a naturalistic paradigm]

quote:
If one Christian does something that they say is righteous, and it is the will of the one true god, but you come along and say it is ‘morally distasteful’, and a sin in the eyes of the one true god, and that these others are using their spirituality to flog people…but you are the 'angry reformer' here to fix their flogging sticks...


First of all, anger and "flogging" are altogether different.  I may be angry and choose not to flog.  This is consistent with a scriptural principle: "Be angry and sin not".  It is easy to imagine reform happening as a result of other approaches than "letting them have it".  

Lastly I'll let you muse on whether professing Christians, due to their knowledge, should be more accountable for being nasty, than those who don't claim the same standard at all, and certainly don't read it weekly ...

Oh yeah and also ask yourself whether Christians have any authoritative example of someone who had little patience for the religious leaders who knew better, but nearly excessive kindness upon people like tax-collectors, sinners, prostitutes, women caught in adultery, etc ... ?

quote:
For your info Stephan, not only have educated psychologists, sociologists, anthropologists and cognitive neuroscientists established plenty of scientifically tested models for current and past human behaviors, including altruism and violence, they have even mapped these emotions to specific areas of the brain.


So detailed explanations of how the brain functions, tells us how morals came about and why?  Remember science is totally in descriptive mode here ... not at all adept at explaining the origins or the purposes of the prescriptive mode.  

In fact most of these scientific descriptions I have no problem with.  You are making the false antithesis of science and faith, as Ron pointed out.


quote:
Ever heard of the ‘amygdala’ Stephan?
No, of course you haven’t, but I bet you can quote me C.S. Lewis chapter and verse.


I am a Registered Nurse, who took A&P.  So yes, I have heard of the amygdala.  As I explained before, detailed descriptions of physiology (which I appreciate) cannot fully explain the nature of morals any more than they can fully explain something like love.  Is can never get to ought, in your canon, remember?


quote:
So it seems Stephan, in an ironic twist of poetic karma and justice…it is YOU who are actually ‘blind’ to the myriad biological and social forces that shape human behavior.


I accept that social forces shape human behavior.  I just don't accept the fallacious view that this is all that shapes human behavior.  In a more than ironic twist, in your "oughtless" world, you cannot cogently explain poetry, karma, or justice without reducing them to valueless material process.  

quote:
So it appears, it is you who are uneducated on these disciplines, that other men have spent their lifetime studying and testing, so that the next time someone has a brain lesion, that completely changes their behaviors and ‘morals’, a doctor might operate and remove it.


Yes I am uneducated in medical science.  But for the life of me, I can't remember how I got a career in it.  Must be cosmic amnesia or something.    

Really, you are misrepresenting my belief to say that I discount the physical / scientific realm, when this is not my position whatsoever.  I just resist the urge to adopt a philosophy which makes such the only layer of explanation.  


quote:
I’ll go against one of my own sacred rules at this point, and say that ‘We’, (the ‘You’ you refer to in your poem) won’t be stopping the work of human behavioral sciences, while YOU shake your angry 'reformer' fist at other people in the pews at your church, while searching for some unspecified, ‘misplaced religious truths’ in the church closet.


That's what you got out of my poem?  

Apparantly I need to go practice some more.

  


Stephen
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36 posted 12-17-2008 01:31 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Brad,

BTW,

Thanks for the comment.

But any references to the evolution debate were either totally subconscious on my part or projected on your part.  But as you've said in the past (that I at least partially agree with), once the ink leaves my pen, I have no jurisdiction on the effect it has.  

To be honest, the references to worms, poor eyes, and desolate houses were existential in nature rather than biological or geological.

Stephen
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37 posted 12-17-2008 01:35 AM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Sea, my brain is actually starting to hurt, how about yours?  I am not afraid to admit it either.  I may actually be learning something from all this.

Stephanos you truly are giving my funny bone a nudge.  When you give up medical science I am sure you can always go into the hot sauce business.   Brad will be responsible for me having a nightmare tonight too, I hate wiggling worms.


I want to mention to our newest members that not only is Ron our Administrator, but he is also our benefactor, and owner of these forums, as well as the main site. He puts more hours in than he will ever admit keeping it running 24/7, but that is not all.  He pays all the bills for the server, and all that geek stuff out of his own pocket to run this place.  Therefore, we all try to encourage each other and new posters to try to behave in "his" house by observing his house rules if only out of courtesy.  Come February 2009, this site is having it's 10th Anniversary.       

Play nice now.  I am going to find Regina to play with ya'll.
Stephanos
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38 posted 12-17-2008 01:58 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Mysteria,

I beg your pardon.  I said "Vermiculate" before Brad mentioned worms.  


Vestibular,

I forgot to add, you really overuse that "bifurcation" fallacy, since it can easily be turned back on you:  Are you implying the only two choices are bifurcation and non-bifurcation?  Reality (and my arguments as well) are not so simple as that.

And look, I'm only using the bifurcation fallacy on you once.

PS. you forgot to respond to my argument that understanding that all is not black and white, does not do away with the need for binary true and false values.  You use them all the time yourself.  We only disagree on application and content.  

thanks,

Stephen.
Vestibular Bard
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39 posted 12-17-2008 06:50 AM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

quote:

So, in this first paragraph alone, you've implied that I'm a fool, told me that I'm ignorant, informed me graciously that you are 'educating' me for my own good, gave me a sunday-school lesson in humility, and then justified it all by telling me that you wouldn't give me such condescending favors unless you thought I was "worth" it?


Stephan,

Stephan, first just let me sincerely apologize to you for any insult, real, or imagined, made seriously or sarcastically, by me, towards you, in this, or any thread.

In the reply you quote above, I did not call you ‘ignorant’, I said you made an “argument from ignorance”, which is a classic debating fallacy, and one that lies at the heart of the most basic, fallacious theological claim made by countless different religions, most of which you disagree with, with gods you don't believe in.


That fallacious argument, is:

I don't understand how something came to be, or what causes something in the universe, thus;

"My personal god did it"

And therefore the universe is a supernatural fantasyland, where my unseen personal god(s) are causing anything, and everything, to happen...or not..depending on their moods and what I sacrifice to them.

That fallacy has slowly but surely been rejected by the academic and scientific communities over the last few hundred years, and has filtered into the general population via education. Most theists in the Western world, don't typically blame their gods for the weather, or their wife being infertile, or their child being born with a genetic defect. But occassionally some still claim their gods are directing hurricanes towards specific 'sinful' American cities.

It was your poem, if you remember, that claimed those who didn’t subscribe to your religion, had no rational basis for explaining some unspecified ‘morality’, and that these people were in effect ‘blind’ in their ability to evaluate human behaviors like 'kindness and wrath'.

Meanhile you also claimed in your poem, that you, in your godly wisdom, were perhaps just 'poorly sighted', with regards to unspecified 'moral behaviors'.  And it was also you, who graciously lamented that your fellow Christians could be quite the nasty, immoral  ‘spiritual floggers’, and this concerned you.

But the solution you offered, was that you, Stephanos, and people like you, will be the ‘angry reformers’, who will somehow change all the floggers, and bring about some kind of unspecified 'moral reform'.

And I presumed the implication was, that we 'others', should abandon our own naturalist, Buddhist, Hindu, or atheist views,  and all join your church, and help you in that mission..so we could all sing kum-by-ya together.

So in effect Stephan, it was you who called me, and every other person outside your religious beliefs, and especially all those people working and researching human behavioral science from a purely naturalist perspective, as “ignorant”, “blind” and in effect “wasting their time”. Because without your religiously inspired moral insights and triune godhead, well then, we simply don’t have any good reason not to rape our neighbor’s children…do we?

Perspective is a wonderful thing…wouldn’t you agree?

Above, you have been insulted by MY words and condescension, I certainly understand that, and I fully take responsibility for it. I was out of line, and again I want to sincerely apologize for that, and I promise that I will be much more sensitive in how I approach you, or this topic, ever again on this site. I'm planning on move onto to writing poems about 'sex' and 'politics' next, now that I have stirred up a sufficient hornet's nest in the religion category.

Hopefully, you too will gain some insight into how your poem, though I’m sure unintended by you, and possibly misinterpreted by me, could also be construed as extremely insulting to people who don’t hold your specific religious views, especially as they relate to how and why specific human judgments are formed around specific human behaviors.

Ignorance is something education can fix…what is the cure for blindness, Stephan? Mud and spit?

It’s clear to me that we have started off on the wrong foot, and I will take the blame for that. It’s also clear to me that this poor beginning has caused any future communication between us, on this topic, to be severely compromised and damaged. Again, I will take the blame for that, and apologize sincerely to you again.

While you were away, the site owner came to this thread, and made it clear to me that he found me quite annoying and that he had been ‘watching me’ and was considering banning me for my boorish behavior. This is his site, he has no doubt put incredible work and resources into it, and I appreciate that effort. I am a guest here, with no rights beyond what he graciously extends me, and it is my goal to comply with his wishes and try and be a bette guest in the future.

I actually really like this site. And the only reason I came here was to have some fun with poetry. There are many fine poets here, and many of them have been very gracious towards me and my work.

I actually very much enjoyed your poem. It was quite humble in its approach, and the form, structure and unique metaphors were well matched and executed.

I think you are a very talented poet Stephan, and please don't let my comments about the message, be misconstrued as a comment about your poetic talent. It was only the specific argument I found  fallacious that raised my ire and caused me to respond. And I only did so, because I truly found your poem to be so well written, and humble.

If I was in your shoes, I would have written that exact same poem, and I would be very proud of it, as you should be. I am just here giving you a different perspective, but I admit to doing that poorly.

Getting into deep theological or philosophical discussions was certainly not my reason for coming here, and until Sea pointed it out, and you linked here, I didn’t know these fora existed.  

So forgive me, but I think it best I don’t read the rest of your reply, as the scorpion in me might sting the frog, and we surely both would drown. If you want to carry on this discussion one on one, feel free to email me your response and I will reply with as much grace and measured temperament as a godless heathen can muster.

Sincerely,

The VB
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40 posted 12-17-2008 07:24 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
I'm planning on move onto to writing poems about 'sex' and 'politics'

Argg nooo.  Please, please just stick with sex!
Vestibular Bard
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41 posted 12-17-2008 07:59 AM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

quote:

Argg nooo.  Please, please just stick with sex!

Dearest Moonbeam,

My mouse hovered over the 'inappropriate content' link on your post, for what seemed like an eternity...but then something inside me said no...don't do it...let's give moonbeam one more chance...surely she would see the error in her ways, and apologize for this crass act of solicitation on a family friendly site.

I forgive you...and I hope this is a stern lesson in the abuse of 'context' for everyone!

...btw...what specific topic would you recommend for my very first sex poem?
SEA
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42 posted 12-17-2008 08:04 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

pick something and write about it already! I want to read it too lol

how about oral?
Vestibular Bard
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43 posted 12-17-2008 08:35 AM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

Sea,

It occurs to me that Ron may decide to package us as a bundle, and trade us to another poetry site for a future draft pick.

SEA
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44 posted 12-17-2008 09:22 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

I hope not, I really love it here
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45 posted 12-17-2008 09:51 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


quote:
what specific topic would you recommend for my very first sex poem?


You!  

http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum28/HTML/002398.html
Vestibular Bard
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46 posted 12-17-2008 09:55 AM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

Sea,

Maybe you can help me...

I wanted to raise the level of intellectual discourse in this discussion, so I went back and looked for the Philosophy 201, 301 and 401 fora...

...but I could not find them.

Are they something that are only open to piptalk upper classmen?

If I was able to prove that every effect has one, and only one, specific cause...

...and that the very first cause that started it all, was the beating of a butterfly's wings, somewhere in ancient Africa...

...would that qualify me for a waiver?
SEA
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47 posted 12-17-2008 10:00 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

honestly? I don't know

I do know that I am making fudge and cookie dough today

so when can we see a poem in Mature?
Vestibular Bard
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48 posted 12-17-2008 11:02 AM       View Profile for Vestibular Bard   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Vestibular Bard

for a moment there...I thought you asked...

When can we see a poem in Manure?

...and I thought I had that sheet covered already...(little cookie dough reference)
SEA
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49 posted 12-17-2008 11:28 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA



 
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