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American Literature
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American Literature |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I received this letter about a month ago. The writer is a good friend, an American from Minnesota, and he was very angry at the comments of Mr. Enghahl. I have permission, of course, to post it. About a week a go, I attended a classical concert that ended with two ABBA songs. Nobody could understand my disgust--except this guy. Note: I have edited it slightly, with permission of course, to delete some profanity. quote: |
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| © Copyright 2008 Brad - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/oct/02/nobelprize.usa |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I’m not sure what you’re trying to point out Brad. Is it how not to respond to a critic perhaps? Why doesn’t your Xenophobic friend just accept that the Nobel prize is biased in favour of Swedish writers and leave it at that. Horace Engdahl and the academy can hand the prize out to whoever they like, however inane their decision seems to others, it’s their prize and their decision and no amount of vitriolic whining is going to change their minds. Smile, thank them for their opinion and then ignore them like the rest of the world. I quite like ABBA btw.  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Thanks Ron. Grinch, Though you did make me smile with that adjective 'xenophobic', I really have no idea why apathy should be the preferred course. You seem to be saying many things at once: 1. Shut up! 2. That Swedish guy has a right to his opinion. 3. It doesn't matter anyway. If we drop 'Swedish' from 2, 2 contradicts 1, and 3 makes 1 and 2 irrelevant. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Cormac McCarthy's "The Road" also won the 2007 Pulitzer. Not a shabby win, no Engdahl seemed extremely supercilious with his remark toward U.S. literature, but I doubt he'll change his mentality no matter who is suggested for him to read. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Brad, When I was a kid, I thought that grown-ups ruled the world. The older I get, the more convinced I am that there really are no grown-ups in the sense that I thought that I believed there were back then. Sometimes, you see a person that's better at it than most other folks, and that's pretty gratifying. I wouldn't count myself among that bunch, by the way. It sounds as though this Nobel prize guy is simply hysterically funny and doesn't know it. I wonder what would happen if he suddenly acquired a capacity for recognizing personal humiliation? For his own sake, I can only hope he never attains that capacity. I can only wonder how he managed to get to his current place. I've just finished reading how Einstein got his Nobel Prize, and how political that was. They refused to give it to him for relativity, you know, because it rubbed some of the Swedish guys on the prize committee the wrong way, and they passed over him for several years for seriously trivial reasons because they were having a hissy fit about the profundity of the subject. Finally they gave it to him for discovering theory around the photoelectric effect. It looks like this is more of the same. Hope all is well, and best wishes, Bob Kaven |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Brad, I don’t think your xenophobic friend should “shut up”, I think he should engage his brain before exercising his pen. The world’s full of people like your friend, normally you see them burning caricatures or effigies and flags, or chanting racist remarks and defaming nations based largely on the actions of one individual. They resort to extreme xenophobia to counter minor xenophobia without realising that winning the Nobel prize for xenophobic proficiency isn’t something to be proud of. If your friend had said it isn’t fair or that it isn’t right or even that the allocation of Nobel prizes isn’t a true reflection of greatness in the literary world I’d have readily agreed with him but once the flag and matches come out the reaction, at least for me, becomes far more repugnant than Horace’s claim. I can ignore Horace - he's harmless. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Perhaps, you should blame it on my high school English teacher. She had pictures of the Americans who had won the Nobel prize in literature on the classroom wall. RW, McCarthy is great. I have an unread copy of "The Road" on my shelf. As usual, my reading is backed up. I'm shooting for next year. Bob, Yes, I guess it's too much to ask that the committee for something as prestigious as the Nobel should in fact treat aesthetics on its own merits and not degenerate into national -- What? -- jealousy. I did wonder if the case for American literary provinicialism could be made, but no one here seems to take that seriously. That's a good thing. G. I don't know. One of the reasons I thought the letter was clever was that it took the specific tone it did and then went about arguing for a stronger internationalism and a more open aestheticism (punk rock?). One could almost see Mr. Engdahl nod his head as it confirmed his own prejudices without actually reading the list of authors being presented. Forgive me for still being a bit of an idealist, but the Nobel still commands respect throughout the world. I think it does so, at least partially, because of the the idea, if not always the practice, of recognizing literature that transcends national boundaries. Why tarnish that? |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Brad, You could probably make the case for almost anybody's literary provincialism. The case would probably be right. I had an unpleasant run-in with a Japanese woman in Wordsworth Bookstore in Cambridge about 15 years back in which she accused me of the same thing, for not knowing Japanese Literature as well as she knew American Literature. She was probably right about the levels of familiarity, relatively speaking, though I think she missed the boat on how much each of the cultures actually wanted to be known. We American's are endlessly eager about ourselves, I sometimes think, and very open about our culture. The Japanese, at least until after WWII — not so much. I think this may be a factor in such provincialism as we have. We like what we do, and we're proud of it, and we want other people to know about it, sort of. Not if it actually costs anything, I mean that would be going too far about art and literature, wouldn't it? We want everybody to recognize what wonders we are as writers and artists, but we don't want to actually face the facts about the lives that artists have to live in this society and support art and artists as they do in many other countries. In Ireland, writers don't have to pay income taxes. It's not like Ireland is giving up some huge cash windfall, you know. That is definitely not provincial. So, whatever this Nobel guy says about the quality of the writing being Provincial, I'd put our stuff up against anybody's in terms of literary quality; though often you won't find it published by huge commercial publishers, it's out there and available from small presses in large part, and in larger amounts than elsewhere in the world as well. When it comes to how America treats its artists, however, its dancers, its sculptors, its poets, its novelists and essayists, it's painters and its actors, provincial may be far more accurate than is comfortable to acknowledge. Any thoughts on the matter? Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Brad, If the references in your friends letter were aimed at African Americans instead references to a supposed Swedish stereotype my guess is that this post would have been removed quicker than you could say “racist”. Try reading it again, only this time imagine you’re Swedish. Are you not offended by this? quote: With regard to the whole Nobel prize circus I couldn’t care less who they give it to, the nomination and selection process is so biased the whole thing is a joke. It should be renamed The Nobel Literary Lottery. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Brad, Maybe Engdahl needs to go back and read Mr. Alfred Nobel's will: quote: So yes, your question is a good one. "Why tarnish that?" Some people don't honor the very honor they have been trusted with. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Grinch: quote: Isn't it tit for tat? Wasn't the first example offensive to Americans in exactly the same way the second may be offensive to Swedes? Besides you have to admit that due to Black history, the public standard has become quite unbalanced regarding racism. "Black Pride" would be a perfectly acceptable slogan today. But imagine the reaction to "White Pride". Stephen |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Perhaps it is. But should it be? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, I did raise my eyebrows when I first read that part, but to me it is vitiated by the reference to the Hives: Hives I don't know. I know the guy, I know his style and I put it in the same mix as when Brits and Yanks get together over beers and make fun of each other. The last time this happened, of course, we also started making fun of the French. At one point, one guy broke down a bit and said, "Well, yeah, but when you actually sit and have a pint with those blokes, they're okay." --I think that's what he said or something like that. At any rate, the point is that aesthetics trumps national stereotypes or should trump them as does a good pint (or two). Bob, You asked a much tougher question and I'm out of time. I'll try again tomorrow. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Maybe it's a generational thing, but I found this post amusing for two not yet touched on things. First, the title: "American Literature". The actual topic seems closer to "American Fiction." which is fine, because "creative" writers most often recieve the award for literature. American and world-wide "literature" includes equally stunning works of non-fiction. In this list: "Don DeLillo Philip Roth Thomas Pynchon David Foster Wallace (oops, too late) Tom Wolfe", No one has pointed out that these are essentially writers in the comic tradition which IS the main thrust of 20th and 21st century American fiction. Most, though definitely not all, relatively contemporary and good writers follow in the footsteps of Mark Twain, not Henry James. Twain was the pivotal figure in shaping the main thrust of American Fiction, and James was retrograde even at the time he was writing. Sinclair Lewis, the satirist, was the first American to win the Nobel. Hemingway, the second winner, was an experimental writer who won quite possible on the basis of "The Old Man and the Sea," a fairy tale almost anyone could understand. Which leads me to two more folk for the missed the boat list: William Gaddis (The Recognitions," "J.R." and "A Frolic of His Own -- the latter two winning National Book Awards," and John Barth ("The Sotweed Factor," "Giles Goat Boy" and "Letters". The works of these two seminal post modernists do not translate to the screen, which is probably why, in this post literate age, few have heard of them. You can be sure the writers on the above "nominations" and "missed the boat" lists did, however, and neither list would exist without them. Just some thoughts. Best, Jimbeaux |
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