How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Is God Art?   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Is God Art?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


25 posted 03-18-2010 01:55 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

You didn't imagine me, because I am already found in the world around us as a whole, a human.  God on the other hand is not.  When we look around we find the natural world, the sky, the earth, animals, and there is no god found, UNTIL we use our imagination.   When we look at the natural world and then have an image of things in our mind, such as the sun and a being ,for example, the imaginative confusion of "sun" and "being" to a sun-being is not too far away.   And once you imagine sun-being, it then seems superior to just the sun or a being.  Therefore if one truly believes in it, he reveres and treats it as a god in one way or another.

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


26 posted 03-19-2010 03:17 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I confess I've never actually seen something of moral beauty.  I think it may be a conflation oif two dimensions whose relation is real but not visible.

     Otherwise this discussion has gotten so abstract that I am unable to follow it.  It pains my brain.  If you could use analogies with fruit or sports equiptment, and compare something to the thickness of a human hair, that would help.  Mention plums, two by fours and nails.  My eyeballs exploded about three posts back.  Help!
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


27 posted 03-19-2010 06:47 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
You didn't imagine me, because I am already found in the world around us as a whole, a human.

Uh, sorry, but I've never found you, in the world or otherwise.

All I've ever seen of Essorant, old friend, is signs and indications that there's something out there that, indeed, I've never directly found in the world. I'm extrapolating a cause and effect based on both prior experience and, yes, imagination. I see things that are best explained by believing Essorant exists. I could come up with other explanations, you know? Perfectly reasonable explanations.

Or I could just decide Essorant doesn't exist.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


28 posted 03-19-2010 11:20 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ron,

You have found me, because you have found and know about humans in general.  We are all different "copies" of an animal you know all too well about: the human.  You also know there are billions of this animal and that it is the only animal that may use English (or other human languages) on a computer.    Therefore, to suggest it is a stretch of the imagination for someone with the name Essorant to be a human, posting on the internet, me thinks, is just playing difficult!  You don't have any reason to believe I am imagined, because I do the same thing as the humans you do know about.  I simply do it in a different way because I am a different human.   The same is not true of a God though.  Instead of finding anything at all that is a "god" in the natural world, we find other things, and then depend on our art/imagination to come up with a "god".  

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


29 posted 03-19-2010 07:33 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Doesn't "Essorant" translate roughly as "Being?"

     Now all of a sudden you're claiming something more specific?  Humanity?

     My head continues to spin.  My dizziness grows overwhelming.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


30 posted 03-19-2010 08:15 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think you are thinking of the word essence, Bob.   Essorant is a french word, meaning "rising, about to fly (as a bird about to take flight)".  Its etymology appears to be Latin exsurgens "arising".
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


31 posted 03-19-2010 10:25 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I think our impasse Essorant, amounts to this:  One may always (with some level of plausibility) propose that God is no more than an artistic sum of human characteristics ... and yet humanity itself implores an explanation.  Remember that God, according to Monotheism, is the maker of the world and human beings.  If you want to say that God is a montage of human attributes, fine.  But you are landed right back in the problem of origin.  Why the human attributes that you find so "worthy" to begin with?  Where did they come from?  Impersonal blind nature?  Nature itself raises questions.  Why is nature "rational" in the sense that it is strangely apprehended by the human cortex, as if distant edifices of mathematical grandeur (like a rainbow) were always meant to relate to the mind and retinas of a guy named Kevin.  Do you find that this is a strange correspondence?  How can our brains know something about something lightyears away and be fairly certain that they do?  Why does your brain reason and perceive along the same pythagorean lines, as hydrogen gas in deep space?  The Anthropic principle in nature suggests a reason larger than our own, which also corresponds to our own.


For these reasons, Traditional Theism makes more sense than the "man made God" theory, for it at least addresses the serendipities I've mentioned of a universe and a humanity which seem at least partly rational.


Ron is right to point out that even your own existence is only confirmed by a disjointed aggregate of mental impressions of a scant few people, relatively speaking, and thus is entirely an article of faith.  A believable one, in my estimate, though I've never seen you.


Stephen
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


32 posted 03-20-2010 04:25 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
You don't have any reason to believe I am imagined, because I do the same thing as the humans you do know about.

You also do much the same things as computer programs I've seen (and that I've written). It's also entirely possible that everything you've ever posted was done by my sister as a joke. Or your posts could be the work of a committee. Essorant as a person, however, is a contention lacking in any real proof.

quote:
You have found me, because you have found and know about humans in general.

I also know about creation in general, Ess. I know, for example, that I've never bought a car or a watch or anything of complexity that had not been created. The leap you apparently find so easy to make about human properties leading to an assumption of humanity makes just as much sense about creations leading to an assumption of creators. Personally, I don't think either assumption is warranted. But you can't logically embrace the supposed validity of one without being willing to explore both.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Is God Art?   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors