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Passions in Poetry

Two heads, one pair of shoes

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Edward Grim
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0 posted 04-10-2008 05:20 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/raisingkids/articlemc.aspx?cp-documentid=6390923


Is this just plain selfishness?

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert E.

serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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1 posted 04-10-2008 02:00 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I don't get it. Explain for me, Mr. Grimm.

(I just love your name yanno.)
Edward Grim
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2 posted 04-10-2008 04:59 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

A child deserves two parents, so when a mother decides that she wants a baby and not a father for the kid, I don't know, it doesn't seem right to me.

I'm not judging single mothers by choice, not at all, I just can't help but wonder if it's really fair for the kid.



(I like my name, too.)

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert E.

Ron
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3 posted 04-10-2008 05:23 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Of course it's not fair. Every kid deserves to have Ozzy and Harriet as parents. Too many, unfortunately, end up with Ozzy and Sharon?

There are worse things, however, than not fair. I suspect never being born might be one of them. In that respect, it's a bit like getting old. Sure, it sucks, but all the alternatives suck even more.


serenity blaze
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4 posted 04-10-2008 05:46 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Sometimes hardship is a motivator too.

There's a kid sitting in my house, utilizing my internet, right now, who is the product of such hard knocks. His mom was a single parent for a long time, his step-dad adopted him, then his step-dad died, and he ended up here.

(He doesn't exactly live here, but nearly so.)

I met him a year and a half ago when my son brought him home and asked if we could "keep" him. I told him we could probably get away with it for about a week without my hubby knowing if he (the boy in question) was quiet. (Conditionally--his parents had to know where he was--I don't harbor run-aways.)

The boy has two parents--again--but um, guess what? There was trouble at home, because two parents sometimes means twice as much fighting, yanno?

I know.

The end to my story is that this kid just aced full scholarship to UNO, complete with dormitory, food vouchers, book allowance, etc. Wow, huh?

(That reminds me--he still has my Feinman series. *frown*)

I think I'll let him keep it!

Anyhow, he was quoted in the newspaper when they ran their annual graduation success stories. He said simply,

"Grades are something I can control."

He's very tough on himself, and I'm always going to worry about that for him.

But speaking of control, the guy in your example could have exercized some control himself. If not self-control, then birth control.

That is not just a woman's issue.

Love ya muchly, Mr. Grimm!

I edited this so it would read just a little more logically--I'm having some internet troubles, so sometimes I have to be quick. Or go make them stop downloading stuff. grrrr......I love my kids, though. *smile*

I just have to count heads for supper.
serenity blaze
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5 posted 04-10-2008 06:08 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

And ooops--didn't mean to ignore you, Ron.

'Cause I want to add, it's true, when that boy sought refuge here, I thought, "whew--it MUST be bad for him..."

I'm not saying it's always that happy either. My daughter's friend also lost her mother last year, just before Christmas.

I'm really worried about that one too...we haven't seen her for a while.

y'just never know, though.

But we can all try, I think.
Bob K
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6 posted 04-11-2008 02:10 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

.

[This message has been edited by Bob K (04-11-2008 03:46 PM).]

Bob K
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7 posted 04-11-2008 02:13 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     This is not a society that's always very kind to its members, is it?  Biology programs people to want kids, not necessarily to want to nurture and raise them.  The way the society treats its members as adults might on occasion be called harsh.   Calls for fairness or justice have often been answered in my experience by jibes of "Bleeding heart!"

     I have recently figured out that "Bleeding Heart!" is probably a derogatory reference to the picture of Jesus I used to see in Catholic homes.  I've also heard considerable reference made to the virtues of Christian living and reference to the United States being "A Christian Nation."  I never thought the United States was a Christian nation myself, but I always feel a little strange about people being proud of stiffing those in need; or even being stingy about it.

     It would be nice for all the kids to have both a father and a mother.  But that's never been possible, what with the unpredictability of life and death.  What has been possible and what we have failed to provide is a community of love, support and compassion that helps pick things up when the immediate bonds of family have failed.  We have been pretty much steadily dismantling those attempts we've made in that direction over the last thirty years.  The strides we've tried to make seem to have been burdened with poison-pill politics, such as our current attempts to provide prescription coverage for the elderly.  All attempts at reaching a position where the program can actually work without bankrupting the system seem to have been defeated in the interests of subsidizing the drug industry.

     This is not simply lack of compassion on the level of helping a single parent family survive.  This is much much larger than that (and includes our attitude toward single parent families, I believe).  Republicans have been quick in the past to accuse Democrats of class warfare for pointing out harsh truths in the way the poor and disadvantaged are treated.  Yet here it is again, and shame on the Democrats for being fearful of calling the thing by its proper name.   And bless you, Serenity, for acting like a decent person should.  You make me happy to be a human being when I read stuff like that.

     Yours, BobK.
serenity blaze
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8 posted 04-11-2008 03:01 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Ed? That new pic is "fierce".
Sunshine
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Listening to every heart


9 posted 04-11-2008 05:24 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Seems to me when I see such examples, and some of which could well be described as "selfish" at times [i.e, the first mother's health and age didn't bear so well on her need for a child, did it? - but pregnant she became, anyway...]

To me, adoption should be and often could be better all of the way around. But maybe I'm just selfishly thinking of the children who don't have any parents.

Essorant
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10 posted 04-11-2008 06:56 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
...adoption should be and often could be better...


I very much agree with that.

Bob K
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11 posted 04-11-2008 10:23 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Every child has parents.  They don't get here otherwise.

     You make the situation sound so passive:  Parents haplessly evaporating under direct sunlight like a dew.  Sometimes parents can't do it.  If they're smart, they know it and can get the kids to other caregivers who might do better.

     The current system doesn't seem to be working, though.

     In Hawaii, I'm told, the situation is different because the whole concept of child rearing is a community concept.  If one set of parents doesn't seem to work well. other members of the extended community step in without a second thought.  Are there PiP folks from Hawaii on line who could correct any mistakes I'm making here?
I don't want to get this wrong.

     I love Serenity Blaze's shared piece of experience.  Somehow her kid and the other kid connected, Serenity connected and things seemed to fall into place.  There's a lot of unstated stuff about open-heartedness here that's also pretty moving.

     How do we get from closed off to open-hearted is the question I'd like to ask.  We, not all of you, I include myself here, we.
Seoulair
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12 posted 04-13-2008 02:02 AM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

I believe that this lady was capable to bring up this child well because she loved this child. She has options before she gives the birth.

And there is also a hope for them to get together again.

Bob K, do you think that psychologically,  both of them indeed want to be together?

[This message has been edited by Seoulair (04-13-2008 03:30 AM).]

Bob K
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13 posted 04-13-2008 04:27 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Seoulair,

          Three stories, which people getting back together?  Single parenthood is certainly possible but difficult without group and community supports.  Not just in terms of money.

     In terms of marriages no one person can be everything for the other; at least not for long.  Mother/child relationships are that way for a while.  Afterwards other elements enter in, but parts of that symbiotic relationship may never go away, especially, I think in mother/daughter relationships.    What do you think
Susan Caldwell
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since 12-27-2002
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Florida


14 posted 04-13-2008 08:27 AM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

I think it's different for different people. Different situations.  I can't judge them.  

I want to type more but can't as I am holding my one month old grandson.   having kids is the best thing I ever did, married or single I wouldn't want to have missed it for anything.  But that is me.  

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

Seoulair
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Seoul S.Korea


15 posted 04-13-2008 12:13 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

I think that they are not selfish but rather mindless. Everything  went well until the pregnancy came along. How, on earth, they have no knowledge that they were doing reproduction?
they don't want marriage...This is lie.
Do you think so, Bob k?  
Why did that man say "I don't want to be married"?
Why did the lady?
One can not say that one wants to stay hungry and keep eating? right?

What is marriage? anything but not one night stand (in this case, the man has to pay money.)

I knew a lady who lived with a man for 2 years and refuse to "marry" (the paper commitment) him. Then he dumped her. And she begged but no use.  Two broken heart.

How they have this kind of mind setting? Bob K?
Edward Grim
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16 posted 04-13-2008 10:23 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Well put, Ron.


quote:
because two parents sometimes means twice as much fighting, yanno?


Sometimes it means twice as much love too, Karen.

"new pic is "fierce"."

Haha, thanks, I had just rolled out of bed...


quote:
To me, adoption should be and often could be better all of the way around.


Here here! I completely agree. Adoption is very big in my family, my great grandmother on my mom's side adopted seven boys.


Sorry I've been absent from the discussion, I've been pretty busy. I'll write more on this later.


"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert E.

serenity blaze
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17 posted 04-13-2008 11:20 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Sometimes it does.

I can't vouch for all of the kids.

But even with two loving parents, I was a "lost soul" child curiously in search of a "real" family.

Ozzy and Sharon woulda been great.

I had two parents--but most days I had none.

They were working--like, ALL the time. I'm afraid I had to tone down my idealizations to..."good enough".

I don't happen to think there is anything wrong with Ozzy and Sharon.  I think their familial love is obvious.
Bob K
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18 posted 04-14-2008 08:11 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Seoulair,

           I suspect you of secret feminist sympathies.  My experience is that women are very clear about the connection of sex and reproduction.  If there are any glitches in the birth-control process, those men who've historically gotten pregnant have kept the matter secret, much as have those folks who've returned from the dead.  Women understand about pregnancy I think more directly than men.  Of course, I'm simply a guy and don't really know about that stuff.

     Guys delude themselves about sex being distinct from reproduction all the time.

     What with reasonably dependable, reasonably cheap, reasonably inconspicuous birth control being widely available these days, many women have begun to unlink the two as well.  What does this mean?

     Can't do more than speculate, really.  I figure that men must now deal with the part of themselves that actually wants children with a specific partner.  Given the fact that women today have more choice in the matter of whom they wish to bear children with (if at all), the man in question must examine what that means in terms of how he must behave toward her.  

     Over the last few generations, the whole biology underlying relationships between men and women has changed.  It may take us 500 or a thousand years to come to the beginnings of some sort of understandings of what that means.  To expect us to do so in 40 years is hysterically funny.

     You can probably predict considerable self-righteousness from everybody, and a tendency to lay blame as far away as possible.  I plan to figure out which of you is most responsible for this whole mess and pursue him relentlessly myself.  Some of my fellow men may well give me problems for my sexist use of "him" in this instance, and I can but remind that in English "him" includes both genders when used in this context.

     I'm afraid, Seoulair, that I may have drifted from your question, but gender questions are notorious for the length of time it takes even to give them decent consideration.
Bob K
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19 posted 04-14-2008 08:18 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Serenity,

           Have you read anything by that dear sweet man D.W. Winnicott?  He wrote extensively on "good enough" parenting, and he sure converted me to the concept.  He's a hero of mine.  He was an English psychoanalyst, but sensible as tea and jam, not fancy at all, and well worth a little look.

     I would think that you in particular would love him.  Thanks for the note, by the way, and all my best.  Bob.
serenity blaze
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20 posted 04-14-2008 09:00 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

He's on my list, now.

And yanno, I really felt despair too, when I realized that my "kids" at 18 and and 17 were so independant now. I figured they didn't need me anymore. I took that pretty hard, too.

Then I realized that it just meant that I'd done something right. And I hope my son brings me an iced coffee when he comes home from his job at Starbucks.

(Did you know they offer a "dental" plan?)

Seoulair
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since 03-27-2008
Posts 776
Seoul S.Korea


21 posted 04-14-2008 09:23 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

  
quote:
My experience is that women are very clear about the connection of sex and reproduction.

Your comment made me realized that woman must be much smarter than man. But knowing in need of the greatest support in pre-blue,  post-blue and the painful delivery in a loving relationship, one still decided to go alone. she  must be strong enough to bear a great psychological pain. And the pain will transfer naturally to the child as early as conception. Or she has not prepare the knowledge.
If those two give up their super-self-esteem  kind of attitude, they might end up a good family.
The man will forever related to this woman because of the child so the best for him is work on the relationship.  To me...it is a matter of growing up and mature for this man. By  biological instinct, he shall claim the child and the woman. But he seems not. (i have many words about this kind of men) but I indeed is  seeing  one improving.
(the man has a fair and wanted to divorce. but his wife was pregnant at that time. He accused her trying to trap him and ignored her through the whole process of pregnancy and also after birth. Now, the child is 3 months old and I saw the man holding his child and the little girl was giggling with her big sister, which made the father laughed loudly. I indeed took the chance to say a whole lot of proper words, with  my best wish that for the love of this child  he could rekindle the love to his wife. ( their marriage does have problem but it  does not have to end.)
Wisdom makes life easier.
  

[This message has been edited by Seoulair (04-15-2008 12:06 AM).]

Stephanos
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Statesboro, GA, USA


22 posted 04-14-2008 11:22 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Karen,

I want a gift card okay?

I think the starbucks here would lose half of its business if I quit going.


Seoulair
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since 03-27-2008
Posts 776
Seoul S.Korea


23 posted 04-15-2008 12:31 AM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

There are worse things, however,
than not fair. I suspect
(that) never being born
might be one of them.

In that respect,
it's a bit like
getting old. Sure, it sucks.
but all the alternatives
suck even more.


I read this 2-Stanzas  many times. many times. They made me smile.  

They meant that to live was equal or better than unfairness and growing old was the best.


serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


24 posted 04-15-2008 10:57 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Stephanos?

I didn't even know they had 'em, but what a great gift idea! Let me talk to my son before he quits there--he's looking to work at a mom & pop coffeeshop.

grin--a couple of old hippies own that other place and he said he just feels more at home there.




 
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