How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 The Right to Die   [ Page: 1  2  3  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

The Right to Die

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 03-20-2008 07:50 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“On Monday, a court in the city of Dijon rejected Sebire's request to be allowed to receive a lethal dose of barbiturates under a doctor's supervision.

It refused the request for doctor-assisted suicide because of French law and out of concern for medical ethics.

Sebire's case revived a debate in France about the right to die. She received national attention after the media published heartbreaking before-and-after pictures that made her suffering instantly apparent.”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,339709,00.html


If someone in such a situation requests it,
should they without adverse legal consequence
be allowed the assistance to die?

I have a best friend . . .

John


.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


1 posted 03-20-2008 08:39 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

When you see the extremes, as in this case, it’s easy to jump in with an unequivocal YES but I’m going to say no for the simple reason that all situations and all cases aren’t as clear-cut. Allowing assisted suicide opens the door to abuse and misuse, it’s a slippery slope that I believe played a substantial part to in the courts decision.

Good question though, it made me wonder whether there’ll ever be a “right” answer, and glad that I'm not in a position where I'm faced with the question for real. I also realized that at that point my answer could just as easily be YES.

  
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


2 posted 03-21-2008 01:39 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


...in such a situation...


Yes.

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


3 posted 03-21-2008 01:39 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
"In such a situation" ... "no"

The whole point is that situation will soon become superfluous to the question, if doctors are given this albatross.  The right to die is one question.  But this question also has to do with the right to kill.  It is not a physicians place to cause or accelerate human death ... though a patient certainly has a right to refuse the good doctor's offered help to sustain life.  If a physician is given such a responsibility or power to euthanize, then the patient's consent can easily become non-essential in situations where the patient is not considered competent to give consent ... Thus the doc would simply have the power to write an order to kill.  And who is to say what is and is not grounds for such an act ... mere suicidal ideations?  clinical depression?  a lingering chronic illness that makes life very difficult?  The passive allowance of natural death is still very different than actively causing it.  I myself am an RN, and I can promise you that I'll never give a lethal dose of medication with the intent of ending a human life.  Lingering wasting illness involves pains and trials that I cannot pretend to be able to relate to, much less trivialize.  I still think that death with dignity excludes the temptation of suicide, MD assisted or otherwise.

Stephen
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


4 posted 03-21-2008 01:55 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

How come a dog with an incurable extreme of disease and suffering can be put to death peacefully, but a human is expected to live and be tortured by it as long as he possibly may?
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


5 posted 03-21-2008 02:03 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ess,

This goes back to our thread about a fundamental difference between humans and animals.  Why do we eat animals with no or little qualms, and not humans?  While it might seem merciful to "kill" a person in the throes of illness (or to help them kill themselves), there is something about our nature that makes it wrong.  We have the moral struggle with it for a reason.  I'll just say that I am Dostoevskian enough to think that there is a redemptive quality in suffering for higher beings such as ourselves.  "Thou shalt not kill".  

That's my moral / philosophical view.  But I think there are good reasons otherwise (legally, professionally, sociologically etc ...) that doctors should recoil from that kind of power.  And believe me, I'm aware of the many angles of it.  I work on an ICU where people die, and are in these situations almost daily.  I personally think people should be admired for (and encouraged in) their courageous facing of illness, not given an option of a euphemized and "clinically efficient" suicidal escape.  

Stephen
Alison
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 01-27-2008
Posts 9055
Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy!


6 posted 03-21-2008 03:12 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

Yes, I believe that we have the right to die when faced with an illness or injury that gives us no hope of recovery.  In my opinion, it is the right of the individual to make that decision.  
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


7 posted 03-21-2008 08:58 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Does one have the right to die? Yes. Unfortunately, it all goes back to painting with a wide brush and the dark side of human nature.

Our courts are geared to follow laws to the letter, whether or not justice is served. Violations of the Miranda act come immediately to mind, along with other things. If one person is granted the right to die, the robotic law claims to have no choice but to allow it for all. That is a sad part of our legal system.

The dark side of human nature will have others using such a decision to have others put away for their own reasons and, for the right payment, would be able to get doctors or even judges to be accomplices,,,sad but true.

If we were able to judge each case on it's own merits fairly, there would be no problem. Our system, and our species, does not possess that ability, sadly.
Marchmadness
Member Rara Avis
since 09-16-2007
Posts 8010
So. El Monte, California


8 posted 03-29-2008 08:37 PM       View Profile for Marchmadness   Email Marchmadness   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Marchmadness

YES,
   Ida
Mysteria
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 03-07-2001
Posts 19652
British Columbia, Canada


9 posted 03-30-2008 01:50 AM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Yes
jwesley
Member Ascendant
since 04-30-2000
Posts 6413
Texas . . .


10 posted 03-30-2008 03:28 AM       View Profile for jwesley   Email jwesley   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jwesley

Right to die?  It seems to me if one dies of natural casuses like heart attack, stroke, motorvechile accidents, etc., there is no question of a "right to die". It's accepted that it happened. But let one want to die because of unacceptable physical or psycological problems - then it becomes a question of a "right to die". All I can say is if one of the "do-gooders" get between me and my death, or the death of my loved ones, when/if the time comes/happens - death will happen even If the do-gooder has to cross the river styx with me. Right to die...how dare you tell me that I don't have a choice in  the matter of my own life. A soldier on a battle field makes that choice and he's called a hero, a patriot.  Yet a person in immense, unbearable, unrelentless pain (physically or mentally)is strapped down "protected" from himself...prevented from dying because that's "corwardly"

Again...all things being equal...get between me and my death if ever the occasion reaches that point...and you can paddle that boat with me because you have no damn right to tell me I can't die if I want too.

Oh, I think all I had to say was YES in answer to HAUN YI'S question, huh?  That's what I did...just in larger letters than most.

Jimmy
wisdomofthesword
Member
since 12-17-2007
Posts 222
the last place on earth


11 posted 03-30-2008 03:30 AM       View Profile for wisdomofthesword   Email wisdomofthesword   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for wisdomofthesword

it's their life

I don't care if you think I'm a fool but don't ever tell me so

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


12 posted 03-30-2008 08:40 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

George Orwell knew.

The battle for the mind is invariably a semantic one. The words we use (or are cajoled to use) influence the way we think. When you are able to put your own words into someone's mouth, half the battle is already won. That's why the opposite of pro-Life isn't anti-Life or pro-Death but, rather, pro-Choice. The words matter, especially if we wish to persuade.

Questioning the right to die is, please excuse me, somewhat silly. That right, if right it indeed be, would have to be one of the few absolute rights anyone has; after all, no one, in at least a few thousand years of recent history, has had it successfully taken away from them.

If words matter, as writers shouldn't we perhaps try to use the right ones? What we're really talking about is the right to kill.
Falling rain
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 01-31-2008
Posts 2165
Small town, Illinois


13 posted 03-30-2008 09:59 AM       View Profile for Falling rain   Email Falling rain   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Falling rain's Home Page   View IP for Falling rain

hmm if they really thought that they needed to die and that they needed a drug that would help. Its not right to do, but they should be allowed to do. its their disicision right?

XxZachXx

"What did you think I ment?"

haha yes im sort of crazy deep down inside. lol!!


Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


14 posted 03-30-2008 10:08 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

No

My grandfather had his life taken away by a nurse.  He didn't "want" to go.  He was a very staunch catholic who believed it was wrong no matter his suffering.

My mom didn't want to sue, because my grandfather was against suing.  She should of.  Now that "nurse" is probably still killing.

Putting my ethics aside, this would open the door to allot of abuse of interpretation.  Suddenly suicide is something that is no longer crazy and a legally acceptable solution "under certain circumstances."  

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


15 posted 03-31-2008 09:03 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ron:
quote:
When you are able to put your own words into someone's mouth, half the battle is already won. That's why the opposite of pro-Life isn't anti-Life or pro-Death but, rather, pro-Choice. The words matter, especially if we wish to persuade.


Yes, but that's also why the opposite of pro-choice is not anti-choice or pro-oppression, but rather pro-life.  

BTW, I do agree with you that the particular question at hand has more accurately to do with the right to kill, than the right to die.


Stephen
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


16 posted 04-01-2008 12:03 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Tough question.  More complex, though, than we're letting our discussion of it be.

     Do I believe people have a right to die?  Dying isn't a right; it's a process we begin from the moment of our conception.  It's a universal fate.  It comes to everybody, wanted or not, and marks the end of that person's span.  Ron's right about the semantics of the issue controlling so much of the discussion.

     When I worked on locked psychiatric units I would get regular requests from some patients for me to bring them razor blades or poison or a gun so they could kill themselves.  After all, I seemed like a reasonable guy, and any reasonable guy would understand that people had a right to die, didn't they?

     I used to hate those people.    Because, yes, I did believe that people had a right to die and their accusations, which generally came very quickly, that I was being a hypocrite didn't make things easier for me.  I decided I would have to live with being a hypocrite for a while while I figured things out.  The job was already getting me beaten up  underpaid.  Maybe hypocrisy was simply another job benefit.

     After a long time sitting with my moral discomfort, I realized that I believed in people having the right to make a personal decision to die, and to carry that out if they had to.  I didn't and don't like that decision, by the way, from having had to clean up after what some of these folks have left behind them.  I don't believe their decision means that everybody around them must snap to attention and carry out the will of that person who made this decision I'm not terribly fond of in the first place,

     I don't like you wanting to kill yourself, won't help you with your plans, and will do what I can to dissuade you.  I have to live with myself, too, not simply with your demands that I help you do this thing I will acknowledge you have a right to do.  If I were to love you enough to believe you, I would not be able to bear to pain of helping to create your loss.  I simply not as noble and self sacrificing as so many others, who might be able to do it for you.

     If it were a matter of physical pain, I would work to get you the right drugs, many of which are illegal in this country.  When I've started an abstract and hypothetical conversation and come to the point that I'm using the second person form of address, I know it's time to stop.

BobK.
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


17 posted 04-01-2008 01:23 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Hmmm... Everyone's so worried about this "slippery slope..." but I don't see it. Not sure how it is in other states, but here at least, there's a very strict procedure for getting a do-not-resuscitate (DNR) order. The doctor and patient (or family, if the patient is unable to communicate) must agree, and a nurse (or other 3rd party) must witness. Kind of like surgical consent. I don't imagine that euthanasia would be any easier to come by...

and, if you want my opinion, it's more dignified and less cruel than, say, letting the person who is a DNR with a massive stroke (unable to eat/drink) sit there and starve to death. This happens every day, it just doesn't always make the news like Terri Schiavo did.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


18 posted 04-01-2008 06:53 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Amy:  
quote:
Everyone's so worried about this "slippery slope..." but I don't see it ...

Not sure how it is in other states, but here at least, there's a very strict procedure for getting a do-not-resuscitate (DNR) order. The doctor and patient (or family, if the patient is unable to communicate) must agree, and a nurse (or other 3rd party) must witness. Kind of like surgical consent. I don't imagine that euthanasia would be any easier to come by...


The 'Slippery Slope' is not about the ease of getting consent, but about which situations would perceivably warrant assisted suicide.  As it stands, anyone can make themselves a DNR, including a 19 year old mountain climber with no history of health problems.  The required doctor's order you mentioned only stands as an institutional policy, not law (if I understand it correctly), since a patient has the rights to refuse any medical treatment for any reason.  If a doctor will allow assisted suicide for terminal cancer, why not for chronic debilitating diabetes, depression, or paraplegia?  You will have those crack-pots like Kervorkian sure enough, but the others will still be legally challenged by patients who want the same 'treatment' for their own problems.

The medical community should not become a springboard, where suicide finds a loophole for legal and social sanction, with the warranting medical condition eventually becoming irrelevant.  That's the slippery slope I see.  


Stephen
badboypoet
Junior Member
since 03-11-2008
Posts 45


19 posted 04-02-2008 01:22 AM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

Rights? Bah! No one has "rights", they're all just make believe stuff that we feel we should follow. Hell, I didn't vote on the rights which govern me, I didn't write a constitution or agree to what was written, so what gives people the right to tell me what my rights are, when their rights might be wrong for me? Bah, and double bah I say. If a person who's sick wants to die, and can say, "Please kill me", then let the poor fella die. And allowing doctors to help put someone out of their misery isn't empowering doctors, it's empowering the sick and dying with the control over their life (the control they've had to give up to others just to keep them "alive" and in pain for another day). I mean come'on, we're not talking about mentally ill people who are looking to jump off a bridge, we're talking about terminally ill people in a lot of pain and poor quality of life.

Laters.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


20 posted 04-02-2008 09:24 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

bbp,

First of all, if you ridicule the whole concept of 'rights', why should we listen to your ideas about assisted suicide?  Are you suggesting that everyone should simply 'get what they want', when it comes to public policy?


quote:
I mean come'on, we're not talking about mentally ill people who are looking to jump off a bridge, we're talking about terminally ill people in a lot of pain and poor quality of life.


Well, who says we're not talking about mentally ill people?  And even if not, who says that the debate wouldn't soon extend into medical conditions which affect 'quality' of life rather than length?


Stephen
  
Seoulair
Senior Member
since 03-27-2008
Posts 776
Seoul S.Korea


21 posted 04-02-2008 03:29 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

The right of living, who can take it away,  beside death?

In reality, we fight with death with all kind of resources until everything gets exhausted to  none... No matter how the concept of death has changed.

We really don't see cancer patients jumping from cliffs, bridges and skyscrapers but we do see them go through all kind of suffering treatment. People want to live no matter what, in pain physically or mentally. This is human being's  biological right,  many things indeed tempt us to give up the right to premature death though.

Many shall die naturally without modern medicine. But we have modern medicine now.

Delaying treatment by doctors, insurance company, and loved ones ...kind of murder
I have solid examples on all of these.  
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


22 posted 04-02-2008 06:30 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Yes there is an ethical dilemma involved in withholding medical treatment to make someone better.  But that's a different subject altogether than the one we're discussing.  There are patients (albeit few) who would choose an unnatural, pharmacologically induced, physician-mediated death, if it were available.  

Stephen  
Seoulair
Senior Member
since 03-27-2008
Posts 776
Seoul S.Korea


23 posted 04-02-2008 07:10 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

Stephen, do you personally know them? Many may complain but I have not heard anyone made a decisive decision that "let go".  One of my friend had cancer and refused further treatment  and died...it was a controllable cancer. ( i think that she was tired of living not because of sole reason of cancer)

If you were given a choice, to die peacefully or struggle painfully...it would become a religion kind of matter. Patient can judge suffering but they have no judgment of prognosis of a treatment or certain disease, let along so many times doctors make wrong diagnosis and give wrong treatment. To live is also to give many other options time.  I take it as humanity issue. legal or illegal.

badboypoet
Junior Member
since 03-11-2008
Posts 45


24 posted 04-02-2008 08:58 PM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

***First of all, if you ridicule the whole concept of 'rights', why should we listen to your ideas about assisted suicide?  Are you suggesting that everyone should simply 'get what they want', when it comes to public policy?***

Noper, I'm sayin everyone does what they want despite public policy. Rights are an illusion, made up in order to control people. And I'm not saying that its a bad thing, just an imaginary thing. You can choose to believe them or not, or follow them or don't, at anytime. Which is why people do bad things despite public policy. Many people will find a way to end their painful life no matter what laws, all you want to do is punish them.


***Well, who says we're not talking about mentally ill people?  And even if not, who says that the debate wouldn't soon extend into medical conditions which affect 'quality' of life rather than length?***

Dude, think treatable vs. untreatable. You can't compare some poor sap painfully wasting away in bed with no cure or better life to look forward to with some guy who's life could improve with treatment or medication. That's just silly.

***We really don't see cancer patients jumping from cliffs, bridges and skyscrapers***

Don't be naive, that stuff happens everyday.

***People want to live no matter what, in pain physically or mentally.***

Yeah, that's why people from all walks of life kill themselves everyday or do stupid things like go to war or take drugs.

***There are patients (albeit few) who would choose an unnatural, pharmacologically induced, physician-mediated death, if it were available.***

Yeah but don't worry, your "rights" are better than their rights so rest easy knowing you kept them in immense pain till they finally died, rather than allowing them a dignified peaceful death.  

BTW, don't know how to use the fancy quote thingy, if any could let me know I'd appreciate it.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> The Right to Die   [ Page: 1  2  3  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors