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Passions in Poetry

The Right to Die

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Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


50 posted 04-05-2008 04:27 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Badboypoet,

          I'm sorry, BBP, but I'm having trouble following your language.  I think you're probably saying something interesting, but I can't pick it out of your idiosyncratic spelling and syntax.  I'm not asking you to change your vocabulary, style or stuff like that.  I think that's interesting and you may be on to something that might work out well for you in your poetry or writing overall.  I'm asking you to work a little harder on being absolutely clear as to what you're saying so that you get a chance to do the experimenting you need to do and we get to follow you while you do it.  Everybody wins.  I want to know what you're saying; you want to be understood.
badboypoet
Junior Member
since 03-11-2008
Posts 45


51 posted 04-05-2008 08:42 AM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

Mr. Bob,

You ain't gonna be surprised when I tell ya you ain't the first fella to tell me somethun like that and I'm not likely to disagree with you or them. I know I write a little too loosey goosey with my casual talk. I'm just kinda starting out writing and I wear a different suit of sorts when I do (I write poetry and short stories in a more legible way). I am capable of writing normal, just find it more taxing is all. I don't know if I'd call it lazy, more like I only got so much energy to allocate to certain stuff. And I think dictionaries and thesaruses are a thing of beauty, but sometimes I'll lose my thoughts as I look for thoughts in them books. But I will try and be clearer if I can and double check what I say.

quote:
No. If you you have the heart to save him but has no time, then let his sides to save him.


What if his side is all dead or fled?
badboypoet
Junior Member
since 03-11-2008
Posts 45


52 posted 04-05-2008 08:59 AM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

Mr. Seoul,

You ain't gotta answer the question if ya don't want to. I don't want to be pushy and by the way ya keep waltzing around it, I get the picture anyhow. Next yer gonna say ya'd let god take care of him. Which is fine if that's yer choice, even if the dying fella didn't believe in yer god and won't appreciate being left to die slowly and painfully. I reckon we done talked about it enough to know where each others lines in the sand are drawn. And I don't figure that we'll change them lines anytime soon from talking more about it.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
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since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


53 posted 04-05-2008 01:16 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

BBP:
quote:
Well you might not agree with me, but I'm sure I'll get the cows vote on that one. Cows don't belong to us, they belong to themselves, we just enslave them and eat them


Well the problem is, if we take your point of view then we'll have to say that your are as bad as a murderer.  Reductio ad absurdum.  I'll go on thinking you are more decent than that.  

There's a fundamental difference between animals and humans you're not acknowledging (at least in your philosophy, though in practice you certainly do).  But we've already done that thread.

quote:
I'm sure in the right situation, you'd kill me for a cheeseburger.


That's debatable.  But of course desperate situations would make temptations harder to resist.  But only in that desperate context can you even begin to make your argument that these two things are morally equatable.  Why?  Because we don't kill people with the same casual air that well fed people pull through a McDonald's drive-thru for a burger.  And people who do, we consider wicked and deranged.

quote:
I sure was, but as you can see others disagree with me. So if I know that I'm right, and you disagree, but know that you are right, and I disagree, well then, where are we at other than we're both right about something we're wrong about. And there ain't no real right or wrong, at least not for this kind of stuff, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a moral compass to make our lives more managable. Just like there ain't no real borders except for the ones we make and change all the time.


So the existence of differing answers somehow implies that they're all right?  I know it's not quite as clean cut as mathematics, but people give wrong answers there as well.  The thing is, any time you argue passionately and persuasively, you are presupposing a real "right and wrong".


quote:
Situationally, when the reaper is at your door, you might ask for a heck of a different legislation then the one you are aiming for now. Just like I might do the same.


Like I said, what someone may be tempted to do in sheer desperation, should not guide legislation.  


quote:
Well, that's an eye opener. I'll just add diabetes to my list of people who can kill themselves.



If such legislation is passed, you might be shocked that you would be forced to do just that.

and of course I'm not talking about ALL diabetics.  But those who don't take care of themselves exist in droves.  I see them everyday.  Should they be encouraged to keep trying, living?  Should they not be given the same "out" that a terminal cancer patient is given just because their remaining time is counted in years rather than months?  

You are not admitting the overlap, and the bleeding of the dye that will occur.  

quote:
Then we could get those million doctors to vote on an official "He's A Goner" assembly who then can decide who's acceptable for "He's A Goner" legistlated suicide assistance program. And then the families of the deceased could get group rates and fridge magnets.


When you're talking like this it really is hard to tell whether you are making a serious point.  But if you are, It is safe to say that those who are "a goner" don't need a suicide assistance program.  I am not against the patient having a right to refuse the medical treatments which might prolong the imminence of death (which they presently do).


quote:
But I do know that dismissing it for one thing, doesn't dismiss it for another. Just like allowing it for one thing, doesn't mean you should allow it for another. That would be like saying all diseases and the people who have them should be treated the same way. That's fine if you're a gingerbread man in a cookie cutter world, but don't work well in the real world.


And so I wonder if you realize that the view that only "terminal illnesses" will fall under the jurisdiction of MD assisted suicide, is such a cookie-cutter world?

quote:
No one calls someone a coward or says they are wrong for jumping to their death to avoid being burned alive for a minute when they're trapped on the twentieth floor of a burning building.


The notable difference, which perhaps you don't see, is that no matter the slender chances of surviving the fall, a person would never do such a thing to merely choose a better way of dying ... but in the slender hopes of surviving the fall.

And so this cannot be a premise for your conclusion that there are "right reasons to kill yourself".


quote:
What about the stories I've heard for war doctors? Some of em, for really badly hurt fellas who they couldn't get to a hospital to treat, would slip em some extra morphine to help them along to the pearly gates. Are these stories made up, or are these doctors not real? Or are they just murderers playing a mean game of god? I think if it was my buddy on the ground with his guts hanging out, screaming like the devils fire was roasting his nuts, and there was no hospital for a hundred miles, and enemies all around, I'd do right by him and slip him a micky.


In reality, if a person's "guts are hanging out", that person will imminently die within minutes.  Pain can be relieved with a non-lethal dose of morphine or dilaudid.  And yes, that will help them die easier.  But I believe it is immoral to cause the death, and thus far legislation for hospital medicine supports what I'm saying.  I don't know about military medicine, but I suspect its the same.  Does that mean there are no doctors in the field who give lethal doses?  Of course not.


quote:
Just cause you care about something doesn't mean it "affects" you ... Most people's lives wouldn't change much if there was assisted suicides. Just like your life don't change much everytime a homeless guy dies, even when it's just down the block from you. Even if he killed himself. And even if he had help killing himself.



Thank you for restating my argument to a tee.

The people getting killed in Darfur don't affect me either.  But I am against the killing.  And there are many like me who are doing what they can to get it stopped.  You seemed to imply earlier that since this "doesn't affect me" I shouldn't bother about Dr-assisted suicide.  But apparently you agree now, that whether something directly affects you is not the issue.  Good.  


quote:
The big difference is, someone's gotta find yer body and the state its in. So is it more noble to die by choice peacefully in a hospital bed with a dose of nevermore, or have a loved one find you hanging in the closet, OD'd in the tub, or you and your brains and the family gun making a right old mess of the living room walls?


Someone could also kill themselves in a "cleaner" manner at home.  My whole point was, the physical "mess" is irrelevant to the question at hand.  


quote:
Me: I don't agree with any abortion,


BBP: Ya, figured as much. I'm sure there's some raped pregnant teens who might not take kindly to that. Or some janitors who find dead babies in the trash or stuck in the toilet.


What's the price of tea in China?

So there's an essential difference here besides the "mess" factor?  

The lesser occurrence of one phenomenon does not justify the widespread acceptance and sanction of another.  

quote:
Is that much like vampires CAN'T be killed by bullets? Cause they can kill full term babies if they want, but they might get in trouble with the law.


And so be deterred.  Yeah, that was kinda my point.




Stephen
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


54 posted 04-05-2008 03:47 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

BBP:
quote:
I've even heard someone tell a sick person if they don't hurry up and find Jesus, they'll go to hell when they die. Man, like that fella ain't had enough to worry about, he looked as if he just moved three doors down from death and was in a wheeled chair. God gave him the disease so I'm sure God will understand if he ain't none too happy with the Lord. Maybe that God up there should start asking us for a bit of forgiveness now and again. By my count, he ain't so perfect.


BBP,

It's my feeling that no sinful human being has a right to be mad at God.  But my feelings don't matter much.  Is God as impatient as I am?  Do angry questions make him angry?  Is God as riled as I am when people cast doubt upon his goodness?  I doubt it, especially if the manifestation of God we have is Jesus on the cross praying for his tormentors "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

There may be an explanation for God's allowance of evil that is not immediately obvious for mortals like ourselves, especially if he is all wise.  I wouldn't want to be a Job's friend, and say that all suffering is personally deserved, or say that good can't come from misunderstanding and offense that arises from pain, but if we are part of a deeply guilty race, (as the Bible says we are) then we probably should try to be thankful it isn't worse, and know that our trouble does not cast shadow on the light of the sun.  (or in view of the cross, know that it cast more shadow there than we can even imagine)



Stephen  
badboypoet
Junior Member
since 03-11-2008
Posts 45


55 posted 04-05-2008 04:17 PM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

quote:
Well the problem is, if we take your point of view then we'll have to say that your are as bad as a murderer.  Reductio ad absurdum.  I'll go on thinking you are more decent than that.


I may not kill people but I sure ain't more decent than a murderer when it comes to cows and other little critters. I plainly either kill them or have someone kill them for me, and then well I dine on their flesh and it tastes pretty good. And before that, I have em imprisoned just waiting to kill em and eat more of them. I have a choice not to do it, I could just eat vegs, but then ya kill things through displacement when ya plant too many crops, or have to shoot critters who mess with your crop, so somethings gonna die. Just cause you can't face what we do or what we are, don't mean we ain't. I know you think people are something more special than other things but unless ya look into the eyes of a dying critter and realize it's life is just as important to it as ours is to us, then you don't know what you really are. If you eat meat, you murder animals, or kill, or name it whatever you want to not feel bad about doing it. So you may think it's reduced to the absurd to call a carnivore a murderer cause you'll feel better about the bacon you had for breakie, and you might dream the eggs grow on chicken trees, but the facts are we kill things all the time. Don't make us bad, just makes us human.

quote:
There's a fundamental difference between animals and humans you're not acknowledging (at least in your philosophy, though in practice you certainly do).  But we've already done that thread.


A lot of scientists might disagree wit'cha on that one. Sure there's a difference between a horse and a cat and a monkey and a man, but I ain't romanticising what we are like we is special. Sure we can build a dam, but so can a beaver. Sure we can fish but dolphins do that too. I ain't never seen a monkey use a computer, but I reckon it doesn't have much use for one neither.

quote:
That's debatable.  But of course desperate situations would make temptations harder to resist.


Yeah I know, you'd be the noble one. Which is great for me if I'd get lost in the desert with you and found me that water. I wouldn't even have to fight ya to keep it.

quote:
Because we don't kill people with the same casual air that well fed people pull through a McDonald's drive-thru for a burger.  And people who do, we consider wicked and deranged.


Course not. Like I said to Mr. Ron, it ain't good business for no one to just go off and kill other people for no good reason.

quote:
So the existence of differing answers somehow implies that they're all right?  I know it's not quite as clean cut as mathematics, but people give wrong answers there as well.  The thing is, any time you argue passionately and persuasively, you are presupposing a real "right and wrong".


Yep, sometimes it does. Cause sometimes there ain't a right or wrong answer, just a course of action that someone either agrees with or disagrees with. I ain't figuring allowing or not allowing assisted suicide will make a better or worse world, I just think it might help a few people out who want that choice. We're you seem to think life would go to hell in a handbag. Like a big old moral collapse would happen and a lot of people would die who wouldn't have to and all that.

quote:
Like I said, what someone may be tempted to do in sheer desperation, should not guide legislation.


Well that's an bowl of sour soup. If legislation is supposed to account for what people do, then what people do when they are desperate should count for something in legislation. Ya tellin me that a desperate dying cancer patient should have no say in how desperate dying cancer patients are treated? That to me ain't very nice, and it ain't very wise.

[quotes]But those who don't take care of themselves exist in droves.  I see them everyday.  Should they be encouraged to keep trying, living? [/quote]

Course they should, there's a hope for them to live a good life.

quote:
Should they not be given the same "out" that a terminal cancer patient is given just because their remaining time is counted in years rather than months?


What do you think? yeah sure, kill them off too cause that's what we are talking about anyhow. Kill em all. Colds, flus, achey back. Lets strangle em with our bare hands. Cause if ya kill off someone on death's door, ya can't stop there, nah, ya gotta keep going till all them sick folk are dead. What was that phrase you used, Redicto Absurd'ish.

Some people's situations are hopeless beyond a doubt to have any kind of quality of life cause they are just about dead and in so much pain, they can't wait for death to come a calling. So if you want to make that the same as a diabetic who ain't ben taken care of himself and got to get a foot or leg chopped off and still has a chance to live a few years if he smartens up, then be my guest.

quote:
When you're talking like this it really is hard to tell whether you are making a serious point.  But if you are, It is safe to say that those who are "a goner" don't need a suicide assistance program.


Yeah its a real point, cause you ain't comfortable with the word suicide cause you think its wholly bad, just like killing, imprison, slaves, or murder. So when ya eat a steak and such, you call it farming, deli, meat counter, and what not. I call it killing and murder cause that's what it is. And you're saying its safe to say they don't need suicide assistance if they is a goner, but we wouldn't be having this tea party if that were the case. We are talking about it cause people who are goners, sometimes ask for suicide help. You seem to think there minds don't count for nothing when it comes to making decisions about them cause they are just desperate folk, and I don't think that is right. I'm sure as sugar that when you ask for help when desperate, that you want yer voice to be counted for.

quote:
And so I wonder if you realize that the view that only "terminal illnesses" will fall under the jurisdiction of MD assisted suicide, is such a cookie-cutter world?


I'm sure they have there guidelines and such, and try to follow em to a T, but I can't say I figure they'd apporach it like they would treating someone who needs stiches. Just like I can't see them treating someone with diabetes the same as someone a couple days away dying from cancer.

quote:
The notable difference, which perhaps you don't see, is that no matter the slender chances of surviving the fall, a person would never do such a thing to merely choose a better way of dying ... but in the slender hopes of surviving the fall.


That Mr. Stephanos, is just plain wrong and I ain't trying to slap ya in the face or nothing, but a little bit of a naive statement. I can't figure that I'm the only one who'd choose jumping to my death over burning. What would you choose? Burning or jumping, you must have a choice? Or they the same to you? I'm sure a few jump with hope in mind, but I'm sure many who've jumped say from the World Trade Towers weren't fooling themselves with hopes that an angel would scoop em up and save em or they'd find that bouncy soft part of the ground and be all right.

quote:
And so this cannot be a premise for your conclusion that there are "right reasons to kill yourself".


Jumping or burning? Pretty simple question really.

quote:
In reality, if a person's "guts are hanging out", that person will imminently die within minutes.


Well then there ain't no harm in helping him along then is there.

quote:
Pain can be relieved with a non-lethal dose of morphine or dilaudid.


Yeah I've seen that too, people in and out of conscious screaming and crying till they die and all confused cause they high. They talk and make no sense and don't know who they are, who you are, or where they are. That's real compassion. I especially love seeing a family have to watch and watch and watch it drag on. Makes my little heart grow that much bigger.

quote:
But I believe it is immoral to cause the death, and thus far legislation for hospital medicine supports what I'm saying.


You ain't causing the death, the cancer and whatnot is. We'd just be helping someone deal with the final outcome that can't be changed so they ain't got to suffer. You probably think alot of things are immoral but thank the lord there are heathens like me cause with out immoral fellas like myself, you wouldn't be allowed to live with yer partner or have sex with them before marriage, ya wouldn't be allowed to see a rated r movie or sip a whiskey sour, heck that new stem cell stuff would be in the garbage can with out godless barbarians like me. All them surgeries and medicines and what not that you probably dig, half them be in the poop throne too. So when ya speak of morality, ya should try and remember all the "rights" that immorality has given us.

And some hospital legislation also says to deny treatments to some people cause they ain't got no money even though it goes against a certain oath people are touting around like a champion belt. So s'cuse me when I roll my eyes a bit when ya say if it's good enuff fer legislation, then its good enuff for me. Or imply that somehow, someway, legislation always makes things "right".

quote:
The people getting killed in Darfur don't affect me either.  But I am against the killing.  And there are many like me who are doing what they can to get it stopped.


Well I ain't been to Darfur, but I'm sure they ain't eager to die, ain't asking for it, and ain't many dying of cancer in a hospital. Big difference is I'm talking about an agreement between consenting parties. One dying and asking for help, and one willing to help them. My whole point about the homeless fella was, you ain't doing much to help the homeless guy, and you ain't losing sleep over it, so why when this doesn't seem to affect you much, that you think the assisted suicide will, cause I think you did say it would affect you. Ya, I know, you's a nurse and all but we covered that stuff too.

quote:
You seemed to imply earlier that since this "doesn't affect me" I shouldn't bother about Dr-assisted suicide.  But apparently you agree now, that whether something directly affects you is not the issue.  Good.


Yep, I'm saying it don't matter how it affects me or you, that ain't the issue, the issue is how it will affect the people that the decision is being made for. You seem to think that you should have yer nose in every little thing that bugs ya, fine can't stop ya, but what I"m saying, lets stick our nose out of it once a while and empower people with the option of choosing now and again fer them self. Some times yer the best person to make a decision for yerself regardless of what every one else is thinking. I ain't saying always, cause for us to get along and work together and be happy and all that, we got to protect the weak and innocent even sometime from them self.

quote:
Someone could also kill themselves in a "cleaner" manner at home.  My whole point was, the physical "mess" is irrelevant to the question at hand.

No it ain't cause I explained why it might be more dignified and noble to die in a hospital bed with a doctor's assistance. I think that's at least a little bit important when talking about suicide assistance. And you said carving someone up is as noble as giving em some drug, which it ain't.

quote:
The lesser occurrence of one phenomenon does not justify the widespread acceptance and sanction of another.


It don't dismiss it either. The widespread denial or refusal of one phenomenon, does not justify the dismisal of another. The greater occurrence of one phenomenon does not justify the widespread dismissal and refusal of another. Or we could just change it around again to, the occurrance of any phenomenon does not justify nor dismiss the widespread acceptance or refusal of another.
badboypoet
Junior Member
since 03-11-2008
Posts 45


56 posted 04-05-2008 04:48 PM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

quote:
It's my feeling that no sinful human being has a right to be mad at God.


Who's sinned? I'm clean as a whistle cause ya have to be a christain to have sins and I ain't that. So since your god ain't got no voodoo on me, I think I'll choose to get mad at him once in awhile. Anyhow, if he is all knowing, created everything, done made everything perfectly the way he wants it, then I guess I can say he don't mind if I kick some dirt in his eye now and again. To think that the ruler of all existence gets bent out of shape if I cuss, touch myself, or get a little vexed at him, don't make much sense unless ya consider silly a sense.

quote:
There may be an explanation for God's allowance of evil that is not immediately obvious for mortals like ourselves, especially if he is all wise.


Whatever floats yer Noah's Ark, I ain't mean to be ripping at your beliefs. I think there's nothing wrong with religion if thats what makes the days pass on by a bit better for ya. But I don't care much for people using religion when legislating on my behalf. If you think it's bad mojo in god's black book for suicide assistance, so be it, but why should anyone with a moral compass set partially by what I consider to be hocus pocus, be allowed to decide what is morally right for me. Though you ain't mention it to me, I'm sure in part some of your disagreement with suicide assistance has to do with fear of god sending ya to the firey depths of hell. So how can I, or other folk like me, trust what you say or the decision you want to make for me, when you are guided by something I think is imaginary? That'd be like me saying Zues told me we should kill the sick and when we die, we'll get a flock of goats and a plot of land on mount olympus.

quote:
but if we are part of a deeply guilty race, (as the Bible says we are) then we probably should try to be thankful it isn't worse


I'm sure that goes over at the hospital like a box of pins at a balloon factory. Try saying that in yer hospital to someone dying or howabout a 95% burn victim. Tell em, be thankful, god could make it worse. Is that anythang like, stop crying or I'll give ya something to cry about? Maybe my daddy was right, maybe he is god cause they sure talk alike. Just keep that religion in check if I'm dying in your hospital or I'm taking you with me. Last thang I want to hear when I'm dying is about how God or Jesus loves me. Pain and suffering ain't showing love to your "children" or flock (yeah I like it when god calls me sheep). If pain and suffereing is showing love to kids, then I think I'll go beat mine right now and tell em I love them as much as god loves me. Maybe next time I take em swimming, and one of em starts drowning, I'll just let it happen and when they ask why I'm doing it, I'll just say you kids don't understand the big picture, it's all cause I love you so much. Then just before they die, I'll tell the little sinners they ain't gonna see god, but the devil cause they ain't gone to church. Yeah all that may sound silly and such to you, but that's exactly how I feel when someone preaches to me.
Seoulair
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since 03-27-2008
Posts 776
Seoul S.Korea


57 posted 04-05-2008 04:57 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

badboypoet,
Quite enough killing now.

If you agree
the entire  biological and medical field is advanced on the goal of prolonging life, curing disease and reliving  all kind of sufferings, but not on the direction of the best and painlessly killing of terminal ill patients.
why?

Why not allow natural, or God take the last breath but let human hands choke to death?

You may think that you are talking for some people but how many real cases do you know in real life? Just as I asked if you have been to a war. How many terminal ill patients have you visited to let you form your opinion?  

an opinion has to have a base,  right?
badboypoet
Junior Member
since 03-11-2008
Posts 45


58 posted 04-05-2008 06:50 PM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

quote:
Quite enough killing now.


Then put down yer fork.

quote:
If you agree the entire  biological and medical field is advanced on the goal of prolonging life, curing disease and reliving  all kind of sufferings, but not on the direction of the best and painlessly killing of terminal ill patients.
why?


Actually I think they have. Kervokian didn't use an old rusty razor blade or a big old mallet.

quote:
Why not allow natural, or God take the last breath but let human hands choke to death?


Tell ya what Mr. Seoul, I'll let your belief in your God rule my life and make my choices, if you let my belief in sparkely fairies and pagan wood gods rule your life.

quote:
How many terminal ill patients have you visited to let you form your opinion?


Bout as much as you have. Have I seen terminal people die, yep. Did they want to die, nope. Did they ask for help in dying, nope again. But I ain't asking to change their choice, or yours. I'm asking to be allowed to have my choice when my time comes and allow others that respect my choice to assist me in passing on to greener pasturs. I ain't interfering with your choices, but you is interferring with mine. I ain't even asking you to like it no more than I like to keep hearing about your god and how he says I can't do it so you won't let me do it. There's a big difference, you all want to stop me from having a choice that mainly only effects me and those who agree with me cause its against your god fearing morals, and I ain't even believe in them. You some how think your morals are above my good sense when it comes to making a choice about me. Well that don't make much sense to me.

quote:
an opinion has to have a base,  right?


Mr. Seoul, I ain't never lit myself alight, but I burnt my finger on the stove once or twice, so I'm kinda figuring that burning alive ain't none too pretty. Like I said, I've seen people die, alot of folk have. [Personal attack removed. Your opinions on the post are welcome. You can keep your opinions on the poster to yourself, please. - Ron]

I didn't mean no foul by what i said and ain't so sure it was a personal attack, I was just suggesting to Mr. Seoul that the preaching he and Mr. Stephanos was doing probably would be a bitter pill for some to swallow who are in a bad state and all. So my apoligies anyhow if I drove on the wrong side of the road. Ain't figuring any of ya to be part of a mean lot or nuthing so I ain't trying to make any of ya feel bad about what ya say or believe in. Just when ya start telling me that your god, not mine, is deciding my legislation and rights, I get a bit ticked is all.


[This message has been edited by badboypoet (04-05-2008 09:52 PM).]

Ron
Administrator
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since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


59 posted 04-05-2008 10:45 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Big difference is I'm talking about an agreement between consenting parties. One dying and asking for help, and one willing to help them.

This, badboypoet, is the entire, complete, unadorned crux of your entire argument. Everything else -- from killing cows to jumping out of windows to willingly murdering your buddy 'cause you want all the water -- is irrelevant and meaningless. This is it, all of it, and all else you've added are semantic red herrings.

You probably feel you need those distractions because your argument doesn't stand up to even casual scrutiny.

The only limitation your argument attempts to impose on what should be seen as a very serious act is that someone must be dying. But you can't seem to define what that means? That's hardly surprising since dying isn't a superlative. We're all dying, no one is dying, and there's no such thing as I'm more dying than you're dying. When you get ready to put a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger, how can you be so damn sure that particular person qualifies for your mercy?

If a seventeen-year teen who just got his heart broken asks you to pull the trigger, are you going to willingly help him? The kid is dying, after all, even it might be seventy years hence. You didn't set any time limits, remember? Seventy years too long for you? How about a year, then? A month? Fourteen minutes, thirty-five seconds? Give us a number to work with here. And after you do, tell us how you expect that time frame to be exactly determined.

You can't just point your finger, say someone is dying, please hand me the gun. And no, you don't get to point someone else's finger, either. Dying is an absolutely meaningless criteria. Quick, go look up the word prognosis. I think you'll discover that the word prediction figures rather prominently in the definition. You don't know when a person is going to die, badboypoet. Neither does a doctor. It's all guesswork, and even if you don't believe in miracles, you should sure as heck believe in history -- which is rampant with documentation of people living beyond all possible expectations.

The only possible way to know if someone is going to die in fourteen minutes, thirty-five seconds is to sit back and see if it happens.

quote:
I'm asking to be allowed to have my choice when my time comes and allow others that respect my choice to assist me in passing on to greener pasturs.

And that's the other flaw in your argument.

Why should your choice be respected any more than the choice of a seventeen-year-old teen with a freshly broken heart? You both want to die because you're in pain and see no hope of your life getting better. Why should we trust your insight any more than we trust his?

Anyone who wants to die -- by definition -- is not in a frame of mind to make irreversible decisions about their life. You simply can't be in so much pain you want to die and still be thinking straight.

Convince me that the only people you will ever submit to a mercy killing are truly those without any possible hope and we might have something to discuss. But I don't think you can do that. You might get it right ten thousand times in a row, but when someone sets out to play God -- even a god they don't believe in -- mistakes are going to be inevitable. And this isn't an arena where mistakes can be tolerated. All the good you think you've done will be erased the instant you kill someone who could have and should have otherwise lived a long, meaningful life.

Especially if that someone is my daughter.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


60 posted 04-06-2008 04:25 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

  

     It may be possible for me to make a decision to die on my own and have that be a decent decision.  I can see that potentially and have seen it in reality.  My happiness with that decision is not high.  In situations where I have had the power to change that decision, I have tried to do so.  Sometimes I have even been successful.  I have not always been successful, and I still struggle with those situations, wondering what else I might have done to alter things more in the direction of MY choice.  To some extend I have in these situations imposed my choice over the choice of other people.  When I no longer have any say in what happens to them, I rationalize to myself, they will make a decision that has been influenced by the input that I've supplied.  I need to make what I do fair, loving and as kind as possible in the hopes that they may take something from it in making whatever choice they will have to make.  When that time comes, as it probably will.  As it almost always has.

     I don't see how it's possible for somebody else to bring another in to serve as an agent to do killing that the suicidal person lacks the will to accomplish in the first place.  This places a hideous burden on the agent.  When a person uses a police officer to commit suicide by cop, or when somebody throws themselves in front of a moving car, it may be suicide, but it is also an assault by the suicidal person on the person who manages to survive the encounter.

     One of the not so closely held secrets any more about suicide is that it tends to be contagious.  Places where a single suicide appears tend shortly afterward to be followed by clusters of copycat suicides.  This was first noted in the 18th Century following the publication of Goethe's classic novel of adolescence, The Sorrows of Young Werther.  Following the climactic suicide of the hero of the novel, a rash of imitation suicides broke out across the continent.

     Today the patterns of suicide are often seen in families over generations, also in schools and certainly in hospitals and prisons.  Attempts to deal with suicides as individual situations are understandable and fair, but fail to  deal with the issue in its full depth.  The right to die, in other words, is but a single segment of an issue that has a more complex social dimension than needs to be brought into the discussion.

     We've been doing a pretty good job looking at the ethics and the element of personal decision here.  We haven't settled these elements by any means.  I want to point out that there are social elements to the issue that push it beyond the terms to which we've limited the discussion.  No just the individual against the decision to live or die, but the individual and the question of what that individual may rightfully request from peers, and the responsibility the individual bears for the consequences of his or her actions upon the health of the community.

     Thoughts?

     Dear BBP,

               "Mr. Bob" is what some of my friends call me sometimes.  When I'm overwhelmed with a case of the terminal cutes, I've been known to use the phrase to describe myself in the third person.
If I can ask you to work harder at being understood, I can't really complain, can I?    Bob K.

badboypoet
Junior Member
since 03-11-2008
Posts 45


61 posted 04-06-2008 04:46 AM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

quote:
This, badboypoet, is the entire, complete, unadorned crux of your entire argument. Everything else -- from killing cows to jumping out of windows to willingly murdering your buddy 'cause you want all the water -- is irrelevant and meaningless.


So you say. Why is it meaningless? I mentioned the cows cause people said it's wrong to assist in suicide cause that's killing, and killing is wrong, but I say it ain't always wrong, and I know you agree cause you seem to be fond of bringing up people going off to war. We kill things all the time, for one reason or another. Don't always make it right, don't always make it wrong. And then people went off and said they'd never kill and it's the law, and that ain't right either cause if put in certain situations they will kill, even if it done gone against their belief system. Then Mr. Seoul said never is killing your self right or something like that. So I says somethun about having lept to yer death instead of burning. And that there list goes on with stuff y'all mention. So y'all keep bringing up these points of why suicide and killing is always bad, but if I done shown a couple situations where that ain't the case, then it can't always be bad. So don't make it out like what I'm saying ain't worth spit. And then course you go on to say can't trust doctors, they sometimes wrong, cept of course the ones who agree with you bout not assisting in suicide. Apparantly then, them doctors opinion is infallible. But I guess dems all red herrings too?

I think I done addressed what everyone said with examples of some real type things that done happened, and some things that could likely happen. I ain't sure why you think me addressing the points raised is a net full of red herrings but their points, or your points ain't?

quote:
You probably feel you need those distractions because your argument doesn't stand up to even casual scrutiny.


Yer dismisal of what i said don't really shake my richter scale. Hard to take yer casual scrutiny too serious when ya liken a heartbroken teen's situation to that of a terminal illness.

quote:
We're all dying, no one is dying, and there's no such thing as I'm more dying than you're dying.


Maybe, maybe not, I reckon yer right if ya stict to a strict definition, yer either dead or yer alive, but there is such a thing as being closer to death or it's just about yer time to die and stuff like that.

quote:
When you get ready to put a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger, how can you be so damn sure that particular person qualifies for your mercy?


Cause there are points of no return when people are just plain old past them and those miracles y'all keep talking about ain't gonna happen.

quote:
If a seventeen-year teen who just got his heart broken asks you to pull the trigger, are you going to willingly help him? The kid is dying, after all, even it might be seventy years hence.


Your really reaching deep in the old pockets fer change to break a dollar ain't ya? I give ya realistic scenarios like a man slowly, painfully, choking to death by a football tumor in his neck and ask ya if you'd let him get assisted suicide, and y'all come back at me with shooting a teenager in his head cause he's heartbroken. You liken a heartbroken kid to someone dying in bed with cancer? Ain't that a shame. I thnk there is a difference between feeling like you want to die, and knowing yer gonna die. But I reckon you talking about shooting a seventeen year old in the head is one of them red herring things ya keep fishing fer cause yer argument doesn't stand up to even casual scrutiny.

quote:
You didn't set any time limits, remember?


Course cause I ain't put a watch to it, then it shouldn't be. Maybe each case should be treated like they is, as individuals and then judged accordingly.

quote:
Give us a number to work with here. And after you do, tell us how you expect that time frame to be exactly determined.

I ain't claim to be a doctor and so maybe an individual, with an individual circumstance, should be look at in an individual manner to decide if that individual should get his way. One boot don't fit everyone all the time.

quote:
You can't just point your finger, say someone is dying, please hand me the gun.

Yeah, well actually ya can.

quote:
Dying is an absolutely meaningless criteria.


And here's what I was talking about you getting yer word heels stuck in the mud. Dying maybe dying in the dictionary, but try going up to a terminal patient and say, "hey pal, don't worry, sure you got cancer but we's all dying. Look at that 17 year old with the broken heart, he's dying, sure he got 70 years to live, but he's in the same boat as you." I done think ya know which context I was using it in. But if it makes it easier for y'all to swallow we can change "DYING" or dying or "dying" to something else so we can get past all that mud.

quote:
Quick, go look up the word prognosis. I think you'll discover that the word prediction figures rather prominently in the definition.

I did hop like a bunny to find it for ya, but I am surprised you done needed me to look it up fer you cause you seemed smart enough to find it on yer own. But since ya couldn't find it, here she be, "the prospect of recovery as anticipated from the usual course of disease or peculiarities of the case" and yeah, "prediction" figures prominently in the meaning. Wus the secondary meaning but I figure the first is saying that anyhow. I ain't figuring theres a perfect system anywhere for anything. And I know what y'all say next, then we should not do it cause it involves human life. I'll come back and say, but we done go to war and innocent people die who shouldn't but we still do it anyhow. Then maybe y'all will say, but that there is for the greater good. And I'll agree. But then I'll say, well I think mercy killing is for the greater good, cause no one should have to spend their last moments on earth suffering in unbearable pain when there ain't no hope fer a brighter tomorrow for some, cause there ain't even a tomorrow for some. I figure ain't no one thinks torture is a pleasant death, yet y'all let some folk to have a torturous like death, choking to death, having their insides eaten out by disease and the pain so bad they beg ya to finish em off, but ya won't, all cause yer afraid a heartbroken 17 year old will ask a doctor to kill him self or you to shoot them in the head. Would it make it any better fer y'all if we add a head shrinker into the mix? But I guess we can't trust them either, or at least not the ones that might take a liking to what I've said.

quote:
You don't know when a person is going to die, badboypoet. Neither does a doctor.

Lord have mercy. I ain't saying I can tell when a person is going to die, (though I'm sure a lot of folk know when their whiskey bar of life has called, "last call" cause I done seen that a couple times) and a doctor ain't a hundred percent about a hundred percent of the cases, but I'm sure there comes a time in certain diseases and for certain people, when it's a one hundred percent certainty that they are a goner and won't be around fer much longer. how bout we just help them? How come an elephant is smart enough to know when it's gonna die, but we are special animals, gods little image, or so I'm told here, and we can't even figure it out fer ourselves? We ain't talking about a calculation ya can just tap into a computer, we're talking about a person knowing their body and discussing the fate with a doctor who knows about the body and diseases and such.

quote:
It's all guesswork, and even if you don't believe in miracles, you should sure as heck believe in history -- which is rampant with documentation of people living beyond all possible expectations.


Yeah if by rampant you done mean when them history books and such right about rare exceptions. They don't write many history books focusing on the 99.9% who die as expected cause that there story ain't as interesting as the ones who make it. And it ain't all guesswork for all cases. Sure might be off by a day or two, but I ain't figuring that to be a wrong guess like it was some bad mistake.

quote:
The only possible way to know if someone is going to die in fourteen minutes, thirty-five seconds is to sit back and see if it happens.


Sure it is. But y'all act like if its a second more or less that the doctor shouldn't do it. That every little thing in yer formula has to be exact or it's wrong to do.

quote:
Why should your choice be respected any more than the choice of a seventeen-year-old teen with a freshly broken heart?

Mr. Ron, if you can't tell the difference between a heartbroken 17 year old, and a ninety year old me with a inoperable football tumor choking me to death, I can't say yer decision making should be trusted. Why don't ya just put another realistic example of the big flaw in my arguement and done throw in babies asking to be killed cause their toy broke?

quote:
You both want to die because you're in pain and see no hope of your life getting better. Why should we trust your insight any more than we trust his?


I sure can see now how that there is my big flaw. No how, no way should you trust a man writhing in pain from a terminal illness (like an inoperable football tumor choking him to death) about what's going on with his body if ya can't trust the wisdom from a broken hearted 17 year old with a bad case of the crushes. I sure done do see how that's the case. Couldn't ya fetch me a more realistic story like you and a baby both want an atomic bomb or something like that there.

quote:
Anyone who wants to die -- by definition -- is not in a frame of mind to make irreversible decisions about their life. You simply can't be in so much pain you want to die and still be thinking straight.


Well ya confusing things again Mr. Ron. Just cause someone says please kill me, don't mean they "want" to die, like dying and playing the guitar has been a childhood dream of theirs. I am sure they want to live and wish very much they weren't sick and waltzing with the reaper and didn't have that tumor choking them to death. Just as much as a lady jumping to her death to avoid burning ain't "wanting" to jump, but even more, she ain't wanting to burn. Sometime there ain't be a win type of situation left, just a choice. Ain't just a matter of "wanting" to die. It's not like wanting an ice cream or anuther guilty pleasure. It's more a matter of knowing you are pretty much dead cept for the paperwork, and asking not to be in pain anymore cause ya'd rather not drag out the torture of it all.

quote:
You might get it right ten thousand times in a row, but when someone sets out to play God -- even a god they don't believe in -- mistakes are going to be inevitable.

I guess we can just about scrap everything then. I ain't wanting to play god no how, I aim to play a game I'm more familiar with called human. I don't believe there is or ever was a thing called playing god. I think its a silly notion people throw around loosely to excuse things. Shoot, never was there a worse saying than "playing god".

quote:
And this isn't an arena where mistakes can be tolerated. All the good you think you've done will be erased the instant you kill someone who could have and should have otherwise lived a long, meaningful life.


Well you probably ain't gonna hear much complaining from the dead. And the folk I"m talking about, well there ain't no fancy movie scene with a doctor running down the hall to stop the assisted suicide cause he just cured cancer. If we do things, the tough things in life that we feel do more good than harm, even like war when we know innocent people will die, or new experimental drugs and surgeries that ain't been proven yet where patient death rates are higher than expected, then sometimes even when someone dies that shouldn't, it don't mean we shouldn't do it, just means we should do our best to make sure we don't make mistakes. And I done know you don't think assisted suicide is doing no one good, and I guess we might always disagree with that there point. But I do think it helps a person pass on "better", and I do think that is a good thing. I know I don't aim to have my family watch me cry in pain fer a week before I die, I'd rather save them the heartache, save me the pain, both physical and watching them watch me, and die with a little dignity and pride left. Not all drugged out, screaming like a madman, pooping and ******* myself like I was a baby again. I done see my granddads die, both of em. One wanted to die at home so we took him out the hospital. He wasted away to nothing and hung on fer months, crying and wailing everyday. Took a terrible toll on the family cause most took turns taking care of him. Wiping his bottom, cleaning up his throw up, holding his hand as he cried. His last words to me was, "I'm so scared". You do right by your family so it don't put me out to have to do stuff like that for a loved one, no more than it would put me out to spare my loved ones from having to do that fer me. And I'm sure if I was gonna check out ahead of scedule, they and me, would much figure it better done by a professional so it is done right.

quote:
Especially if that someone is my daughter.


I ain't fooling when I say this, I do hope yer daughter never is sick and put in a situation that we have talked about as much as I hope my kids never get badly sick. I don't wish that fer anyone, foe or friend, or even cow. Well maybe a few foe but not the cows cause I need them healthy so I can eat them. But what if she, and I never hope this, but what if she gets an inoperable football tumor in her neck, is slowly choking to death and constantly begs for doctors suicide assistance cause she just wants to die right now but can't. What will you say to her? Will you dismiss her opinions as quickly as mine, tell her that her argument is flawed and doesn't stand up to casual scrutiny? Or will ya tell her she ain't allowed cause your worried bout a heartbroken 17 year old asking to be shot in the head?
badboypoet
Junior Member
since 03-11-2008
Posts 45


62 posted 04-06-2008 05:18 AM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

quote:
I don't see how it's possible for somebody else to bring another in to serve as an agent to do killing that the suicidal person lacks the will to accomplish in the first place.  This places a hideous burden on the agent.


You are assuming that it be a burden too big for everyone who did it. I could do it. Wouldn't be fun but I'd take on that burden. Plus what if a person who wanted to die, ain't lacking will, but lacking nohow or physical capabilities. Some poor soul trapped in a bed ain't rushing out to get sleeping pills or a gun.

quote:
"Mr. Bob" is what some of my friends call me sometimes.  When I'm overwhelmed with a case of the terminal cutes, I've been known to use the phrase to describe myself in the third person.


Well dang, I ain't know what to call ya anymore, one fella tells me friendly names are disrespectful until yer friends, so I figure I'll call everyone Mr. since it's a formal sign of respect while keeping a distance. Now I find you done use it as a friendly term, and I ain't suppose to use those terms until I get the secret handshake.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


63 posted 04-06-2008 02:33 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I mentioned the cows cause people said it's wrong to assist in suicide cause that's killing, and killing is wrong, but I say it ain't always wrong, and I know you agree cause you seem to be fond of bringing up people going off to war.

You must be thinking of someone else, badboypoet. I don't bring up war to either justify or denounce suicide. If I did, it would just be a meaningless distraction because they are in no way related.

quote:
Maybe, maybe not, I reckon yer right if ya stict to a strict definition, yer either dead or yer alive, but there is such a thing as being closer to death or it's just about yer time to die and stuff like that.

Your time to die? At the risk of another distraction, that sounds dangerously close to a religious tenent?

If humans come with an expiration date, no one has found where it's stamped yet. So, no, any concept of one person being closer to the death than another is only viable in hindsight, when looking into the past, not when looking into the future. We don't know.

  
quote:
I ain't claim to be a doctor and so maybe an individual, with an individual circumstance, should be look at in an individual manner to decide if that individual should get his way. One boot don't fit everyone all the time.

No, but we're not talking about boots. We're talking about laws. If you want someone to be an exception to the law, that's absolutely fine. But you have to spell it out. "I'll know it when I see it" isn't necessarily the best way to govern society.

quote:
And here's what I was talking about you getting yer word heels stuck in the mud. Dying maybe dying in the dictionary, but try going up to a terminal patient and say, "hey pal, don't worry, sure you got cancer but we's all dying. Look at that 17 year old with the broken heart, he's dying, sure he got 70 years to live, but he's in the same boat as you." I done think ya know which context I was using it in. But if it makes it easier for y'all to swallow we can change "DYING" or dying or "dying" to something else so we can get past all that mud.

I'm guessing you never tried to console a seventeen-year-old with a broken heart? To him, his pain is pretty darn real. But then that, too, is another distraction.

You can, of course, change the word dying if you want to. You're the one who used it in your argument, so please, feel free to change it. But don't expect me to do it for you. If not dying, what criteria do you want to use for killing someone?

quote:
And I know what y'all say next, then we should not do it cause it involves human life. I'll come back and say, but we done go to war and innocent people die who shouldn't but we still do it anyhow.

I think we just figured out who keeps bringing up war. I'll make you deal. I'll stop advocating war if you stop advocating assisted suicide?

Birth also leads to death, but I don't think it has much in common with assisted suicide beyond that. Your analogy is flawed. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of ways we kill each other, either quickly or slowly, intentionally or accidentally, and none of them have anything at all to do with your desire to kill someone just because they ask you to.

quote:
Yeah if by rampant you done mean when them history books and such right about rare exceptions. They don't write many history books focusing on the 99.9% who die as expected cause that there story ain't as interesting as the ones who make it. And it ain't all guesswork for all cases.

Sure it is. Actuary tables can result in some incredibly good guesswork, but it's still guesswork. Besides, we're not talking about tables, we're talking about people. You're the one who keeps saying we should treat these people as individuals. Please don't try to use statistics now?

Even were I to accept your statistic (which we both know you pulled out of thin air), I wouldn't be satisfied with simply knowing that 99.9 percent of your death predictions are true. I need to know which 99.9 percent. And I need to know before, not after, you snuff out the .1 percent.

quote:
But y'all act like if its a second more or less that the doctor shouldn't do it. That every little thing in yer formula has to be exact or it's wrong to do.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a second. That's up to you. You still haven't given us any numbers, though. Do you want accuracy within days? Months? Years? Decades?

And, yes, given that you want to take a person's life based on when you think they'll die, I don't think accuracy is too much to expect.

quote:
Mr. Ron, if you can't tell the difference between a heartbroken 17 year old, and a ninety year old me with a inoperable football tumor choking me to death, I can't say yer decision making should be trusted.

I can tell the difference, badboypoet. The argument you keep putting forth, however, clearly can't. And, yea, that's precisely why it shouldn't be trusted.

quote:
It's more a matter of knowing you are pretty much dead cept for the paperwork, and asking not to be in pain anymore cause ya'd rather not drag out the torture of it all.

See what I mean? That one sentence can, indeed, be used to describe a person slowly choking to death. OR it can be used to describe Romeo and Juliet. YOU don't differentiate.

quote:
I done see my granddads die, both of em. One wanted to die at home so we took him out the hospital. He wasted away to nothing and hung on fer months, crying and wailing everyday. Took a terrible toll on the family cause most took turns taking care of him. Wiping his bottom, cleaning up his throw up, holding his hand as he cried. His last words to me was, "I'm so scared".

You have my sincere sympathy. And, I hope, at least a modicum of understanding. For me, it was my dad. Followed, just a short year later, by my mom. It seems like only yesterday. The pain and grief are still raw, the memories still so very vivid.

I don't think we should ignore our memories, but neither should we ignore that they ARE memories. We are looking into the past with the seeming clarity of hindsight. Do you remember the precise instant when you abandoned hope? I can't. There probably was no instant, at least not for me. It was a process, I think. A very long one. My dad, in particular, was a giant, burly man, and his thirty-some years on the railroad had left him strong of both heart and body. At 79, he could still hold the weight of his fourteen-year-old grandson on one extended arm, much as he had done with me fifty years earlier. The cancer had a mountain of flesh to devour before it could find and consume his core. My dad did not go softly into the night, but lingered long beyond anyone's hope of recovery, beyond even Mom's muttered prayers for a miracle. When Dad finally passed, we thought it a blessing.

I remain convinced, however, that the blessing had to come in its own time.

Many years before that, I also had to help bury my little seven-year-old brother-in-law. Donny was born very late in life, back in the early Seventies when there was much less understanding of Down's Syndrome than there is today. I introduced his father to his mother, so was there from the beginning. And my wife at the time was particularly close to her little, unexpected brother, though certainly no one who ever met Donny could ever fail to love the bubbling tyke immediately.

Down's Syndrome sometimes brings with it a host of related conditions, including congential heart defects. Donny had a hole in his heart. The doctors all agreed he would never see his first birthday. Later, they agreed he wouldn't make it to his second. That went on for seven years and countless operations, leaving scars of dead flesh branded the width and breadth of his chest, a too-white "T" that always marked Donny as different. I'm not sure if Donny ever knew a single moment of life without pain. I know his mother and sister didn't. I watched each of them, when they didn't know they were being watched, cry their silent tears. I think I cried a few of my own.

Yet through it all, just knowing Donny made the pain bearable. He was the happiest, most joyful soul I have ever known. When you walked into a room, Donny always greeted you with a bubbly smile and laugh, with eager eyes that at least momentarily made you feel like the most important person in the world. His arms would immediately extend for a hug and I never knew anyone who could deny him. Donny was love incarnate.

The hard questions have to be asked, badboypoet, if perhaps only rhetorically. When do you think Donny's pain should have been terminated? Think back to your own grandfather; would you have ended his life seven years earlier so he didn't have to suffer? A year earlier? Six months? I can guarantee you, if he was human, he knew pain. At what point do you think the cost of life should outweigh our desire to live? When does relief become more precious than life?

People, sometimes, can be smug. I've met a lot of young people (and, indeed, used to be one) who said they never wanted to grow old. I've met a lot of healthy people who said they would not want to live if it meant being blind, being deaf, being unable to walk. My own dad reminded us that he used to often say he never wanted to live long enough for someone to wipe his butt for him. We really don't know what we will tolerate, though, until it comes. And when you look at people like Helen Keller, or Steven Hawking, or Christopher Reeve, or tens of thousands like them, you really have to wonder if there is -- or ever should be -- any limitation on our tolerance for hardship and pain.

In my experience, old people don't want to die. Those who cannot see, hear, or walk aren't ready to give up the ghost. And even those who face a daily loss of their dignity generally want to give life another go. Pain is not a reason to give up living. Pain is just an excuse. The only people who ever want to die are the ones who have lost their hope.

And, yea, sustained pain and a dim prognosis can certainly result in a loss of hope. I'll give you that.

But a broken heart can lead to the same result. Teenage hormones can, too. Clinical depression is rife with hopelessness. Even drugs can do it. There's simply too many known instances where hopelessness is clearly unjustified. A complete loss of hope is probably the saddest thing in the world, but it CANNOT be a reliable indicator for when life should end.

Sorry, but I will not trust the person who tells me they want to die to be making rational decisions. And I sure as hell don't trust the person who thinks himself so infallible that he's willing to help them.

[This message has been edited by Ron (04-06-2008 03:24 PM).]

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


64 posted 04-06-2008 05:57 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

"'You can't just point your finger, say someone is dying, please hand me the gun.'"

'Yeah, well actually ya can.'
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Dear BBP,

          Certainly you can.  This is often called "Murder."  As had been pointed out, by myself among others, we are all born dying.  At some time or another there is somebody who is happy to point out that fact about each of us.  For those of us who haven't taken the point, law suggests this is not sufficient reason for canceling  another person's check, and supplies sanctions.

     My mother has an inoperable brain tumor, and has had for more than 20 years.  It isn't happy, but somebody in a similar situation with a depression might easily decide for a suicide.  The brain tumor is still inoperable, you're still willing to pull the trigger because of that and because the (most likely treatable) depression is distorting her reality testing.

[Lengthy passage removed. Please limit discussion to the posts. Not the posters. - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (04-06-2008 07:55 PM).]

Seoulair
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65 posted 04-06-2008 06:02 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

Dear Ron, powerful and touching write.
I am not able to imagine how you went through THEM by yourself.

Back to the thread. there must be a truth. And I believe that the truth is:  people don't want to die. So don't help them to die.
badboypoet
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66 posted 04-07-2008 06:53 AM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

quote:
You must be thinking of someone else, badboypoet. I don't bring up war to either justify or denounce suicide. If I did, it would just be a meaningless distraction because they are in no way related.



Nope, you done mentioned fighting and killing and dying fer yer rights as having a choice such as we done did in WWII and against them Brits to gain Independence. It wsa done said in counter of me saying about them sex slaves either doing sex or dying. Tha only reason I bring all this up is, folks are saying all thier reasons against assisted suicide, one of em is cause its killing and killing is wrong. I aimed ta show that killing ain't black and white, and it ain't always wrong and so ya can't solely dismiss assisted suicide based on them grounds. Can't justify it on that there one reason either cause not like suicide is a black and white thing neither but it may be part of the large picture and how we done look at it. Though we look to outside issues fer examples to relate complecated things to, don't meen when we find em, it makes things right or wrong, but don't mean they ain't hold some water either. Them more understandable things we can relate it to, the more we might gain wisdom fer making a tough decision.

quote:
Your time to die? At the risk of another distraction, that sounds dangerously close to a religious tenent?


Nah, I meant that there in a medicine way. All our time hear is limited even if we ain't know the expiry date down to a second. If I was there holding a bible when I done said it and pointing up ta the clouds, then I reckon you could say so.

quote:
So, no, any concept of one person being closer to the death than another is only viable in hindsight, when looking into the past, not when looking into the future.


You done said some conflicting things...

quote:
My dad did not go softly into the night, but lingered long beyond anyone's hope of recovery, beyond even Mom's muttered prayers for a miracle.


So when yer dad was at that stage "beyond hope of recovery," that ain't hindsight and how come you can tell but ya figure most of us can't when we're at that stage? And would you say at that there point in your pa's life, he was closer to death than you? I ain't talking it the strictist sense of them words (like we're all dying), I talking about how we folks use loosen up the neck ties on them words to relate hard ta communicate type things.

And ya have my sympathies too Mr. Ron. That there is a tough storm ya had to weather. Funny enuff, my grandpa worked the rails too, that and hunted. Strongest man I met, could rip telephone book in half when he was younger, fitter than a fiddle in his eighties until he done got sick.

quote:
The hard questions have to be asked, badboypoet, if perhaps only rhetorically. When do you think Donny's pain should have been terminated?

It shouldn't be terminated. I wouldn't let a person afflicted with down syndrome play with a gun, or drive a truck cause they ain't able to do so responsibly. And since Donny ain't able to make a choice about smaller things like driving, although it ain't nice to take away "rights" he shouldn't be allowed ta choose assisted suicide. And I don't figure others should be allowed ta choose for him either. I ain't aksing fer anyone to choose for anyone else, I asking for people to be allowed their own choice.

quote:
When does relief become more precious than life?


Depends on tha person and they own situation. I ain't figure you can answr that fer someone else. But there has to be a point cause sane people done kill themselves too.

quote:
We really don't know what we will tolerate, though, until it comes


fer sure! That there is why a choice is needed. I ain't sure when my time comes if I could pull my own plug, and get help doing it, but I done want that choice. There is pain that will knock a man flat out cold. What if yer last two weeks were filled with days that seemed endless where ya just wake up, have such bad pain ya keep passing out than waking up to more pain and on it went. I done wouldn't let it happen to a dog, and I ain't even give a dog a choice, so I sure ain't want to let it happen to a person who done asked to be treated better than a dog.

quote:
And when you look at people like Helen Keller, or Steven Hawking, or Christopher Reeve, or tens of thousands like them, you really have to wonder if there is -- or ever should be -- any limitation on our tolerance for hardship and pain.


We all can do what we can do. I ain't done fault the brilliant Mr. Hawking fer any of his weaknesses, not that I done know what they are - side from the obvious, but we all have limitations, that there is a fact. As much as there is potential, there is also limitations. Everythang and everyone can be stretched and pulled and twisted only so far before they break. But I want to ask you, if Stephen Hawking done got himself a tumor in his neck, and was slowly choking ta death and asked fer assisted suicide (cause he ain't able ta do it himself) what then? He done ain't even have the choice ta kill himself like we do, cause he ain't got the body to. If y'all saying a person should never get someone else involved if they done choose to kill themself, how can a smart, sane fella like a Mr. Hawking, be considered to have that option when he ain't even able to tie his shoe?

quote:
In my experience, old people don't want to die.

Heck no they don't. Most people don't want to die ever. I ain't blame em, I don't want to die. Like I say a little while back, I don't figure people choosing assisted suicide "want" to die either, but I done liken it to a person trapped in a tall building that's being swallowed whole by a bad old fire with no way of help getting to them. That there person knows they only got themselves two realistic choices. Burn ta death, or jump to death. If they burn ta death, they ain't killing themselves but the last minute of their life would be like taking a swim in a volcano I reckon. If they done jump, they killing them self and sparring them self all that pain and suffering. I done figure ya can't fault someone fer jumping. Or do ya figure them wrong fer jumping? If so, why? If not then ya can't say suicide is wholly a bad thang when faced with certain options.

Ain't no final page in the final chapter in no one's life should as a bunch of screams.

quote:
Pain is not a reason to give up living. Pain is just an excuse. The only people who ever want to die are the ones who have lost their hope.


You say "lost their hope", I think I have ta differ, cause it ain't always so, sometimes, there ain't no hope to be had.

quote:
A complete loss of hope is probably the saddest thing in the world, but it CANNOT be a reliable indicator for when life should end.


No it can not, I agree there, but there is hope and then there is realistic conclusions. There are certainties in life, well ya could start going into the law of probibility and all that there stuff, but we should really make our decisions on other stuff than alternate universes and such. There comes a point in a lot of diseases that it is for certain near the end. That there ain't no bouncing back. Yeah I ain't saying they got that down to a second or a day, but considering ya think no one can predict death, they is pretty close pretty often.

quote:
Sorry, but I will not trust the person who tells me they want to die to be making rational decisions.

Agin Mr Ron, ya keep using want to. I think we done agree on people not wanting to die, even the sick, maybe espeically them. BUT, What if they done say, "I don't want to die, but I done have two choices, die by slowly choking to death and in great pain, or git me a doctor to inject me with something to make me pass on." Ain't that there similar to my example of a person in a building on fire? You done ain't never answered that hypothetical but realistic question. And I done seen people choose to jump to their death on tv more than once to avoid being burned to death.

badboypoet
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67 posted 04-07-2008 10:10 AM       View Profile for badboypoet   Email badboypoet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for badboypoet

quote:
don't think we should ignore our memories, but neither should we ignore that they ARE memories. We are looking into the past with the seeming clarity of hindsight.


But ain't that there how we make all our decisions for the future? Through our memories? Ain't that what decides our future actions?

quote:
And I sure as hell don't trust the person who thinks himself so infallible that he's willing to help them.


Ain't nobody asking YOU to have to trust. But that there don't mean other folk should be denied something cause you don't trust it.

I know ya think most of what I've been saying is pointless and irrelevent. But what here I been trying to establish is I reckon these here things.

1. Is killing ALWAYS "wrong"?
2. Is suicide ALWAYS "wrong"?
3. Is killing someone who's asking to die, ALWAYS "wrong"? (such in war time)
4. Is #1 and #2 and #3 major points in assisted suicide, which if ya boil the pot down to the bottom, I think so. Assisted suicide is both killing and suicide.
5. So if killing ain't always wrong, and suicide ain't always wrong, and even assisting in suicide ain't always wrong. The question in my mind ain't so much, is assisted suicide "wrong"? Cause it ain't, but the question is when is it "right"? And when should it be permited or tolerated? Not "IF" it should, but "WHEN". That there is where I am at.
Huan Yi
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68 posted 04-07-2008 04:34 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/faqs.shtml#whatis


.

There's also the question of a "living will"
that directs no extraordinary medical measures be taken . . .

.
Stephanos
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69 posted 04-07-2008 08:04 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

BBP:
quote:
Who's sinned? I'm clean as a whistle cause ya have to be a christain to have sins and I ain't that.


If you're like me, you haven't even been able to live up to your own standards, much less God's.  And if God is the creator of all, it would stand to reason that he is the judge of all.  And I know it is the fundamental idea of God and personal sin that you are denying, but if it were all true, wouldn't sinners tend to do that very thing?  In C.S. Lewis' "Till We Have Faces", Orual (someone who also had a complaint against the gods) wrote in her realization at the end of the book, "Long did I hate you, long did I fear you."  I've been there too (maybe sometimes still) so I'm certainly not condemning you.  Just something for you to think about.  


quote:
So since your god ain't got no voodoo on me, I think I'll choose to get mad at him once in awhile.


Are there Freudian implications to being mad at a God you don't believe in?  I once read a vitriolic poem in which the speaker went on and on cursing God and ended by saying something to the effect of "you don't exist and you know it too!"  Do you see an irony is this kind of thing?  And yet I see it pretty often.  

quote:
Anyhow, if he is all knowing, created everything, done made everything perfectly the way he wants it, then I guess I can say he don't mind if I kick some dirt in his eye now and again. To think that the ruler of all existence gets bent out of shape if I cuss, touch myself, or get a little vexed at him, don't make much sense unless ya consider silly a sense.


If you'll go back and read what I wrote, you'll see that I mentioned that the best image of God we have is Jesus forgiving his tormentors.  Is that getting "bent out of shape"?  And yet, if we remain in rebellion, or with misconceptions, or refuse to change, we'll have to live or die with those implications.  The best interpretation of what scriptures says as a whole, is that it is we who are the bent-out-of-shape ones (though precious in God's eyes).  The question is, are we willing to be fixed?


quote:
But I don't care much for people using religion when legislating on my behalf. If you think it's bad mojo in god's black book for suicide assistance, so be it, but why should anyone with a moral compass set partially by what I consider to be hocus pocus, be allowed to decide what is morally right for me


This thread, to begin with, wasn't about religion at all ... until you brought it up.  Of course, as a Christian, my faith naturally influences my entire view of life, and so informs my thinking on issues like this.  But its really no different with you.  Your own philosophy and religious (or anti-religious) inclination informs the way you see and argue this issue.  For example, your belief that there is no essential or soulish difference between humans and animals, fuels your belief that killing a suffering person would be no different than a fateful trip to the Vet.  So you really shouldn't scold anyone for allowing their deeply held beliefs to inform their worldview (even in the areas of legislation), because it is unavoidable for everyone.  Besides, there are certainly many non-Christians who are opposed to Doctor-assisted-suicide as well.  And while I would say that their particular view of this issue is more at home with Christian belief, their opposition should suggest to you that its better just to debate the issue at hand, than to chide for having an ideology or religion.  It's the Kettle and the Pot.


quote:
Me: ... but if we are part of a deeply guilty race, (as the Bible says we are) then we probably should try to be thankful it isn't worse


Bbp: I'm sure that goes over at the hospital like a box of pins at a balloon factory. Try saying that in yer hospital to someone dying or howabout a 95% burn victim. Tell em, be thankful, god could make it worse. Is that anythang like, stop crying or I'll give ya something to cry about? Maybe my daddy was right, maybe he is god cause they sure talk alike.


Hey there's a time and place for everything.  I'm not about chiding someone for "not being thankful enough", or for lack of piety in the middle of their troubles.  Even Job's friends were at their best when they kept their mouths shut and simply loved their ailing friend.  When they started wielding theology like a weapon, they were quite out of line.  

And yet ... the hospital is not without opportunities for encouragement in areas of piety.  I met a man the other day who was in the ICU with multiple debilitating health problems, whose personal joy and countenance put me to shame.  For some, an alleged approaching oblivion offers no real consolation, but the knowledge of the gospel does.  There is a place for "Jesus loves me" even in the most difficult trials, though you're right that it is not for everyone at every moment.  I try to be sensitive to when and how.

  
quote:
I'll tell the little sinners they ain't gonna see god, but the devil cause they ain't gone to church. Yeah all that may sound silly and such to you, but that's exactly how I feel when someone preaches to me.


But you do know that anger can distort the picture too, right?  It is deeper than: "they ain't gonna see God but the devil cause they ain't gone to church".  And if the gospel has been presented in this manner to you, it is understandable for you to feel that way.  But I would still ask you to consider whether that's what preachers are saying.  Or if they are, is that what the Bible really presents us with?



Mister Bob,

I wanted to respond to something you wrote, though it has apparently been nixed.  But I'll try to respond to what I consider to be the thrust of what you were saying.


If you'll go back and read my quote where I wrote "It's my feeling that no sinful human being has a right to be mad at God." you should notice that it was followed by:  "But my feelings don't matter much.  Is God as impatient as I am?  Do angry questions make him angry?".  Then I went on to describe Jesus praying for his tormentors.  Your response to me seemed to dismiss that I said this, though you expressed much of the same sentiment.  So I guess we actually agree that God is "above" petty human examples of anger and vengeance.  And yet there's another side too.  As you always like to say, the issue is more complicated that we've discussed so far.            

There is the patience and love of God presented in scriptures.  There is the picture of God who is lovingly unperturbed at the "anger" and misconception of man.  But there is also the plain statement that to remain in anger and misconception will bring harm to oneself, a harm that is just as much a result of one's chosen character as it is an imposed punishment.  The two are really different descriptions of the same thing.  We are shown the patience of God, but we are also told that it is a patience that can ultimately be rejected or forsaken to our ruin.  Those are (accepting the Christian view) God's words.  

But there is also the precedent in scripture of what mortals say to mortals about this subject.  God may be patient to Job's bitter questioning of divine providence, but Job himself tells his wife that she is behaving foolishly when she tells him to "curse God and die" with a proud and yet tragic kind of protest (Job 2:9).  In the Pauline letters, God reveals himself as having "unlimited patience" (1 Timothy 1:16)  yet Paul elsewhere writes things like "Who are you O man, to talk back to God?" (Romans 9:20).  Jesus tells a condemned criminal on the cross next to him "today you will be with me in paradise", yet that same criminal rebukes another saying "Don't you fear God"?  (Luke  23:39-43).  So when it comes to one mortal talking to another, such criticism is sometimes appropriate.  It's not about God being "prissy" and needing defense, or being capricious and mean, but of conviction.

And really,  this kind of balance is true to life.  Even the most loving and patient people we know have moments where they can be austere and reproving.  Something like this is true of God as well, though these things are only imperfect images of his own character.  And yes we do get it wrong.  Sometimes, like Job's friends, we reprove for no good reason, and at other times, like Job's wife,  we reinforce someone's self pity and anger at divinity.

Just something for you to consider Bob.


Anyway, back to the subject of Euthanasia?


Stephen
Bob K
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70 posted 04-07-2008 08:55 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

  
quote:

badboypoet:
1. Is killing ALWAYS "wrong"?
2. Is suicide ALWAYS "wrong"?
3. Is killing someone who's asking to die, ALWAYS "wrong"? (such in war time)
4. Is #1 and #2 and #3 major points in assisted suicide, which if ya boil the pot down to the bottom, I think so. Assisted suicide is both killing and suicide.
5. So if killing ain't always wrong, and suicide ain't always wrong, and even assisting in suicide ain't always wrong. The question in my mind ain't so much, is assisted suicide "wrong"? Cause it ain't, but the question is when is it "right"? And when should it be permited or tolerated? Not "IF" it should, but "WHEN". That there is where I am at.



     1, 2, and 3悠 can't imagine how anybody could possibly tell.  You could get people at fight with you about that, but you'd probably have trouble agreeing on any sort of authority to mediate, wouldn't you?

     Part of the reason for this becomes clear when we look at the actual meaning of the verb "to kill."  I've taken my definition from The New Oxford American Dictionary, which for discussions informal as this one is generally sufficient.  If you insist on running to the OED, do it yourself.  There are further definitions listed, which you may check at your convenience.  The one which appears to the point is the first one.  kill 1 "cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing)".  The dictionary then adds examples.

     That is, the matter of will and intention are left out of the definition.  That is why the general translation of the commandment Thou shalt not Kill may occasionally be disputed.  I am no speaker of Hebrew, nor do I know the literature, but I am told the translation is more precisely, Though shalt not murder.

     Speaking of murder,  The new Oxford American Dictionary defines the the noun in question as "the unlawful premeditated killing on one human being by another."  The dictionary adds that the killing is done 1) to a human being; 2) that it is unlawful; and 3) that it is premeditated.

     Suicide is "the act of killing ones self intentionally."  Historically it has been called "self-murder." I believe without good-enough evidence to attempt to assert my belief as anything like fact that the current definition is one that represents a bit of a historic change.  If there are others with more of a scholarly bent than I have in either direction, I'd like to know what you think about this.

     BBP,  I've let you toss in your references to killing and forks and as though they were the equivalent of one person killing another person unlawfully and with premeditation on several times.  I don't like the thought of meat eating, though I do eat meat.  I would like to register however that I do believe there is a difference between a Quarter pounder from Mickey-the-D and Aunt Emily, and despite your occasionally very funny come-backs, I believe you think there's a difference as well.  If you were a vegan, for example, I know for SURE you never eat at MacDonalds.  Aunt Emily, you're on your own.

     The thing that makes assisted suicide wrong is the one two three punch in the definition of murder.  I have no idea what the actual legal definition involves, which may be more complex still.

     In the terms I am talking about, the terms of the way the language uses the words, assisted suicide is murder.  The exception might be possible with something called an advance directive, having to do with what measures will be taken in maintaining life in extreme situations.  Food or breathing assistance or hydration might be withheld in combination with drug therapy.  By keeping the actions of the helpers within the range of "lawfulness" the charge of murder might be avoided.  You'd need a legal opinion on that one.    

     A comment on spelling:  Above you used the phrase, "Well dang!"  I believe the correct form is "Whale Daang!"
I await your comment, sir.  The form I use is generally preferred among right-thinking hornswogglers because of the secondary suggestion of cetacean anatomy.  It is a whale of a tale, sir.
Bob K
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71 posted 04-08-2008 12:28 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Stephen,

           I should know better than to imagine a lack of compassion on your part.  You bear lovely witness, not to try to stir up pride, simply I think in being yourself.  It's a better world for your being in it.  

     As for being angry at God, I can't tell you.  With some people, oddly enough, it's a sort of lover's quarrel.  There are jokes Jews tell among themselves that illustrate this.

     Every day a guy joins his fellows to make a tenth, what they call "a minyan" so that they can have a service early in the morning.  And every day, while he's praying, he's also complaining to The Nameless.  "Tell me," he complains, "You Who fixed the orbits of the planets, and offered the Covenant to Israel, and Who gave us The Sabbath and made It Holy, why is it you arranged for me to win The Lottery.  My brothers could use the money, my wife could use the money, my cousin Wulf, that putz, I could give him some money and maybe he'd move out of my aunt's house.  I could give money to the Schul.  Why is it you won't arrange for me to win the lottery.?"

     Day after day, Stephanos.  Year after year.  Decade after decade.  Time passes.  Wulf has kids, and they're as bad as Wuf was.  The Schul is falling into ruin.  The guy's wife is sick, and still he shows up to make the early morning minyan, and every day he complains to the Nameless.

     Finally, one day in the guy's eightieth year, all the other men from the minyan have gone back home or to work and our hero is taking off his prayer box and bindings, and folding his prayer shawl, complaining to YWHA, and a miraculous voice fills the pitiful little sanctuary.  Plaster dust shakes lightly from the walls and ceiling, a couple of the ancient light bulbs blow out; and our guy looks up from what he's doing.

     "SO, DUMMY!," says the Voice,"WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO BUY A TICKET?"

     With some people, I guess I'm trying to tell you, it's part of their dialogue of faith.  Judaism is filled with jokes like these, and  Jews laugh in recognition.

     There's probably some difference between the Old Testament God, when you think about Him; and the God of the Diaspora, now that I think on it.  But that's another discussion, isn't it?

     I hope you at least enjoyed the joke.  Best, Bob.

    
Stephanos
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72 posted 04-09-2008 11:27 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Bob,

I don't think one need go as far as imagining a "different God" for different conditions and periods of history.  God doesn't change, but since we do, his approach with us was bound to.  A Davidic community needed to understand the unconditional faithfulness of God, and so they were given grandiose promises.  A later smug and self-righteous community who couldn't conceive that God might allow harm to their Temple and status of favor, no matter how wicked the community had become, needed to understand the holiness of God in judgement, and so were given the trials of foreign invasion and deportation to humble them.  A post-exilic community needed to understand the importance of holding to hope even when the dreams of the past seem shattered beyond repair ... and to see God move again to restore the community.  One can see how an father treats an infant, toddler, child, and teenager differently without proposing that a new father steps in each time.  Of course this kind of approach might be unavoidable for those who think God is only a product of human artifice and not ontologically and personally real.

But yes, complaint and the "lover's quarrel" is a part of the dialogue of faith.  Some of us would never talk to our wives if we didn't have friction to get things started.     

And having said all of that, Yes, I can appreciate the humor.  Reminds me somewhat of "Fiddler on the Roof".  And I appreciate your gracious reply.  


Stephen
Stephanos
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73 posted 04-09-2008 11:36 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

On the subject of Dr-assisted Suicide, I think the general philosophy and aim of hospice care is in direct opposition to the Kervorkian philosophy.  Anyone who is curious can look up "Hospice" and read about it.  It might also provide material for further discussion on this thread.  


Stephen
 
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