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Feminism

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Stephanos
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since 07-31-2000
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Statesboro, GA, USA


75 posted 04-16-2008 10:32 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Simone de Beauvoir was a red-hot French Mama


Had to laugh at this one, in a discussion about feminism and gender stereotypes no less.  

I'll respond later,

You've worn me out Bob.

Stephen
Ron
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since 05-19-99
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76 posted 04-16-2008 11:30 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
You won't find many Feminists who would hold that position today, nor would you have for the last 20-25 years.  


quote:
Kidnappings were common in Elizabethan England using just this scheme and continued into the 19th Century in Scotland.


Bob, if you won't let Stephen reference Gloria Steinem, I hardly think it fair you get to jump clear back to Elizabethan England?

p.s. I briefly dated the vice president of the San Diego chapter of NOW in 1980. I'm glad you didn't say "last 20-28 years," Bob, else I'd have had to disagree strenuously. As it is, I fear I have no anecdotes with which to counter your timeline.
Seoulair
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since 03-27-2008
Posts 776
Seoul S.Korea


77 posted 04-17-2008 12:36 AM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

Dear Ron,  who is vice president of the San Diego chapter of NOW in 1980? (what is NOW?)

A woman been loved and respected shall be a very good story to tell here in this thread.
Please, please!!!
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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78 posted 04-17-2008 02:31 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Ron,

         All time lines are approximate.  I'm sure there were loads of folks like that about 25 years ago too Ron, and I know you wouldn't bring it up without reason.  Bring up Gloria Steinem as well.  I'm not trying to clear the field of people I don't agree with or points of view either for that matter.  I figure the job I'd like to do is to try to put our happy little heads together and come up with something that makes intellectual and gut sense both to as many of us as possible.  The 16th Century stuff isn't to bring up old business but to try to connect what was happening then to what's happening now, and it's for that reason as well that your comments about NOW should be welcome as well.

     I think we're all pretty much scrambled, and talking together is a way of clearing the air and creating broad based sense where there were only little islands of it standing before.  At least that's my project.
Seoulair
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since 03-27-2008
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Seoul S.Korea


79 posted 04-17-2008 12:47 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

quote:
What if the way that feminism advocated for equal rights was to shoot all men?

Is this the intention of NOW? (I am soooo glad that you are here lively today after dating the vice president of NOW)

all human organizations have problems.
And there is saying that if you want to make straight of the bended, you have to overbend to the opposite  direction for a while to get it done.  
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
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80 posted 04-17-2008 02:00 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Here are some positive words from Kathleen Herbert's Peaceweavers and Shieldmaidens: Women in Early English Society, something people may think proudly about:

"The most useful words to hear first are some of their (English people's) words for women, because these hold the basic ideas about them, built into the very fabric of the language.  They come into everything else the early English said on the subject of women.

If you could ask someone from early England: What is a woman? the answer would likely be: A woman is a man, of course!

That would not mean women were regarded as a subgroup of the male sex, or that they had no seperate identity or personality but only a particular use.  In the Germanic languages, mann means a human being of either sex, a member of humankind.  So in a land lease granted by a Bishop of Worcester for a duration of three lives: "Elfward was the first man and now it [the land] is in the hands of his daughter and she is the second man" .  Early English legal documents - wills, charters, lawsuits- make this meaning of man quite clear.  They also make it clear that females owned and disposed of their own property and estates.

People (menn) were węponedmenn or wępmenn and wifmenn: "weapon-people" and "wife-people".  When they left out the idea of common humanity, menn, the early English classified people as weras and wifas: "males" and "wives".

A wer- the word survives in werewolf - was someone who could put seed into a woman so that she could make children.  The word comes from the same root as the Latin vir, from which we get "virile" and "virility". [...]

Though wif is the ancestor of "wife" it does not mean a female bound in wedlock.  A fishwife, an alewife, a henwife, a housewife - these were women who had particular jobs that needed special skills.  The word wif cannot be traced in any form in the other Indo-European languages outside Germanic.  It is found in all the Germanic languages except Gothic. [...] It seems very likely that the form of the word and its metaphorical images point to a connection with the verb wefan "to weave" and its related nouns webb "woven stuff" and wefta: "weft", the threads crossing from side to side on a loom.  Oddly, the word wefan is also not recorded in Gothic.

The idea of a link between weaving and woman is strengthened by considering the similar train of thought in a pair of words used in King Alfred's will.  He distinguished descent in the male and female lines as "the spear side" and "the spindle side".  Males expressed their masculinity by weapons, females expressed their femininity by making threads.

This Old English definition of woman as spinner and weaver was a very profound concept with several levels of meaning, from an everyday task that met a physical need, rising through art and the structure of society, up to the nature of heaven and earth.

Women clothed humankind: in the days before textile factories and the ready-made clothing trade, they spun and wove the cloth as well as furnishing the clothes. [...]

However, as well as being weavers - makers and artists in the literal sense - early English women,wifmenn, were also seen as spinning and weaving the threads that held societies together.  One Old English word for a highborn woman who married to make or keep the peace between two powerful kindreds, dynasties, or tribes is frithuwebbe: peaceweaver.  [...] .

The Old English ancestor of lady: hlęfdige, seems to have derived from hlaf: bread "loaf".  The chief woman of a household would have charge of the food-supply, as housekeeper, even if she were rich enough to have many servants.  The lives, comfort and the status of the others, from kin and guests to slaves and beggars, depended on her.  [...]

The early English saw the normal division of work - with apparantly no sense of resentment or contempt on either side - as being between war, defence, law-enforcement and hunting wild animals for food, on one side, on the other, the arts and skills of peaceweaving in all its forms."


Seoulair
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since 03-27-2008
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Seoul S.Korea


81 posted 04-17-2008 02:13 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

Dear Sir Essorant, when did English start their potato planting? and sheep raising?  and tea leaves picking and cotton?  When did the industry revolution start? and what is now? Computer age, many women program and type faster than men. Then what?

I love your summary on the role of man/woman. it quite fits in this thread.
quote:
Males expressed their masculinity by weapons, females expressed their femininity by making threads.

woman making thread must mean demure in your dictionary.  

Dear Ron, Sir Essorant is very right this time, right?

[This message has been edited by Seoulair (04-17-2008 04:47 PM).]

Bob K
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82 posted 04-17-2008 03:04 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Thanks Essorant.  I've never been able to track down "wyf" and I find that material pretty cool.    It helps broaden out the picture for me.  I notice, for example, that none of the relationships you mention here are primarily power relationships and there is no expressed concern with paternity, which in many societies is a big deal.  

     In iceland today, however, the last name of the child depends on its gender.  The son is named after the father and the daughter after the mother.  I'm not clear about the finer details though.  Gunnar's boy child with Marta, Stephan, would be Stephan Gunnars- sohn.  Their  daughter, Hilde, would be Hilde Martas-dottar.  Something like that.  The anthropology is different than it is elsewhere in Europe.

     Bride-price and bride-gold still need some sort of explanation, though, I'd imagine, if that world were to be as egalitarian as you or I might hope to imagine it.  It may be difficult to distinguish myth from reality or one layer or reality from another in looking at these accounts.

     Also it may be important to distinguish elements of the Goddess and the eternal Feminine from the actual conditions of real women living in history then and now.
To some extend the discussion about Feminism can't help but be infused with archetypal elements of how people feel about the Feminine in their lives.  You can't help but notice the amount of passion and rage the discussion has drawn to it over thousands of years.  It's not a math problem, it's what I think of as a Tissue-Issue.

     People carry the conflict in the very meat of them.

     Here we are locked in the middle of it.  Again.  Why this discussion?  Why does this one get people so flustered, passionate, discombobulated?  (On a personal level, I have often asked myself why is it that there's always a Bob in the middle of every discombobulation?  Is it our Fate?)

     Have you by chance seen Denis de Rougemont's, LOVE IN THE WESTERN WORLD?  (I have no idea how to access italics in this program, and it drives me nuts.)  I'm pretty sure that "romantic love" is tied in here somehow,

     Anyway, inquiring minds want to know.

     Any thoughts?  Yours, BobK.
Seoulair
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Seoul S.Korea


83 posted 04-17-2008 05:05 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair


Franch woman in WWI. Should they stay home? to be the demure ones?
Seoulair
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since 03-27-2008
Posts 776
Seoul S.Korea


84 posted 04-17-2008 09:06 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

And Canadian women




hush
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85 posted 04-18-2008 11:53 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

LMAO @ the women in the plow... lol... sorry, I'm sure it's not funny to them, but has anyone here seen Borat? Not that much more can be said about it on this forum... but if you've seen it, my amusement speaks for itself.

See, not all feminists are humorless man-haters... LOL... sorry, I'm cracking myself up here.

Bob... interesting... yes... level? Um, okay, thanks, but not too sure about that. Nice of you to say anyway.

Stephen:

'First of all why does "dictate" keep coming up in this talk?  I certainly don't think that even the most militant feminism "dictates" anything.'

Well, that's an easy one. Because men have dictated what women do for much of history. The word and idea of dictating are central to any discussion of civil rights, and particularly feminism.

I do think your statment is interesting when compared to your second-wave feminist quotes. I'll admit that I found Gloria Steinem hard to swallow, and her dictation of what feminism is to be somewhat offensive. Because the second-wave feminist movement mirrors, in my opinion, the male-dominated structure it sprang from.

Look, don't get me wrong, I think they were a very important group of women, and their hardness sprung from the times... not only from the social oppression of women, but we're talking about the 60's... the widespread repression of the 50's giving way to social movements of every color, and many of them militant and angry.

As a younger person, I relate far more with 3rd wave feminism, a more all-encompassing ideology. let's face it, second-wave feminism catered to the elite, well educated woman. Third-wave caters to all women, in all walks of life, and while some third-wave feminists are pretty far out there on the political spectrum, I find it overall to be a much more accepting ideaology.

Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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86 posted 04-18-2008 05:10 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Hush,
      
           I guess you'd be talking about by comments on the Goddess and the archetypal element of the whole thing.

     There's a decent body of literature on women and the Feminine in the Jungian literature.  Among authors of interest, you might look at would be M. Esther Harding, Marie Louise von Franz and Emma Jung.

     Among the books that seem to have a certain specific bearing on these issues is Animus and Anima (were I aware of how to use italics in this program, I would place this book title in italics), by Emma Jung.  But any decent discussion of the topic is thought provoking at a minimum.  June Singer's book, Boundaries of The Soul (again my comment about italics) is very lucid and is particularly good on the subject.

     It may seem out there to you, but I'm afraid that's a product of my hurried writing.  The subject is worth the exploration.
Ron
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since 05-19-99
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87 posted 04-18-2008 09:00 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

<off topic>

quote:
were I aware of how to use italics in this program ...

It's not a big secret, Bob: UBB Code Explained

</off topic>
Seoulair
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since 03-27-2008
Posts 776
Seoul S.Korea


88 posted 04-19-2008 01:42 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair


Eldest daughter of Lord Byron, known as the first computer programmer. Her name, Ada, is today used in Military Computer language. She developed a system of punch cards to solve mathematical equations using the Jacquard card system (1801) of looms used to   weave  fabric patterns. http://www.wic.org/artwork/ada.htm
(Ada's mother, what was she good at?
"Five weeks after Ada was born Lady Byron asked for a separation from Lord Byron, and was awarded sole custody of Ada who she brought up to be a mathematician and scientist. Lady Byron was terrified that Ada might end up being a poet like her father. " http://www.agnesscott.edu/lriddle/WOMEN/love.htm

Women shall be allowed to do what they are good at, individually. .            

[This message has been edited by Seoulair (04-19-2008 02:22 PM).]

rwood
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since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


89 posted 05-27-2008 07:54 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Hey Ess~

quote:
Is feminism a good thing?


Yeah, sure. Why not? However, every human being should be leery of those who feel it's necessary to scream out who they are. It's a good indication that the one doing all the screaming isn't wholly convinced about one's self or has lost direction with one's own cause.

quote:
Women shall be allowed to do what they are good at, individually.


This is a passive and non-supportive statement to your wonderful example of a female role model.

Women are individuals and they are good at any damn thing they set their hearts and minds to.

Not unlike men, at all.  
 
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