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Passions in Poetry

How Do You Reconcile God

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Huan Yi
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0 posted 01-05-2008 04:53 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


with cancer
in children?


.
TomMark
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1 posted 01-05-2008 05:21 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Best friend of mine, a Christian in San Diego. ( I was there from 1991-1995. I might have met sir Ron there)  had her second child at the age of 38. The little girl had Adrenal Cancer at 2 and had an operation then. She also had hearing problem and went through at lease three operations on her left ear. The child is a happy 10 years old now. the mother has been always in church and has her share of her service and she has a fellowship group in her family every other Friday.

And she used to take hours to listen to my junk talking.  More than a big sister to me.

Why the first thing to hate God when there is a unwanted event happened?

Stephanos
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2 posted 01-05-2008 07:07 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

How do you reconcile a sense of moral propriety (which is not merely opinion) with no God?
Essorant
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3 posted 01-06-2008 12:20 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Does God determine our lives?
FatesWarning
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4 posted 01-06-2008 12:29 AM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

To answer the original question of this thread: Why does one need to?
TomMark
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5 posted 01-06-2008 12:36 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

FatesWarning,
Do you really want to know the answer?
FatesWarning
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6 posted 01-06-2008 12:48 AM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

The answer I know of will not change. However, the answer you know of may be different. If you care to share it, that is up to you.
TomMark
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7 posted 01-06-2008 01:49 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear FatesWarning,
Here we are talking about God....the God whom the Bible talks about. So the answer must come from the Bible.

Why do we need to reconcile God?
1.God made Human and gave us  His bless and His plan and rules.
2. Human betrayed God in Eden.
3. Human was kicked out of eden and become sinners and mortal.
4. God selected Israelites to spread His words about How to behave so to be with Him again---reconcile as Jesus preached "Let your hearts be turned from sin, for the kingdom of heaven is near." So, through Jesus...follow His teaching( from God) ...
Matthew 22:37-40
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.’
means reconcile. Then when final day judgment comes, one shall be on other side to go to heaven.

This is why reconcile..... to get into heaven   to be with God again.
Huan Yi
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8 posted 01-06-2008 03:48 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Just up the road
from where I live
is a clinic full of
bald headed children
who I'm sure are innocent
of harming anyone.

.
TomMark
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9 posted 01-06-2008 04:47 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

I don't know the answer. I am crying for a dear friend who is so young but in hospice now.  
hush
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10 posted 01-08-2008 08:54 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I don't. If I had to point a finger somewhere, I'd look to the artificial chemicals we constantly ingest, knowingly and unknowngly. You know how the crap in diet pop can cause cancer in lab rats? What do you think it does to fetuses in utero?

And, last time I checked, God didn't create diet pop, although he allegedly did create man.

*shrug*

I would drive myself insane if I tortured myself over why bad things happen to innocent poeple. They just do sometimes.
Joe Crow
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11 posted 01-08-2008 07:31 PM       View Profile for Joe Crow   Email Joe Crow   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Joe Crow

Do you think God causes cancer?

I doubt that's the way to look at things and I would say that the way the program unrolls like a great scroll in the sea of DNA that "change is part of the program and with it sometimes birth defects and cancer and a great number of other things which you may believe to be harmful or hurtful to you in a direct way which is also what would be called subjective"

Is lightning malicious? Probably if it hit you but lightning is beneficial to all creation and is just part of the way things are and isn't malicious at all.

What would the Zebra say about his throat being in the jaws of the Lion?

Of course he'd probably say God this ain't fair but that too seems to go with the saying, nobody ever said life was fair but know this; God ain't malicious and our thoughts aren't God's thoughts.

Then again maybe that's the best way to answer your question. You should be asking the One who knows.

                     Joe Crow
Bob K
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12 posted 02-11-2008 05:38 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear John,

          I'm not clear we need to.  You yoke together two concepts that you haven't shown are joined.

     Beyond that, you make the assumption that the two concepts are not already reconciled.

     There is a mathematical construction called a tesseract which—as this enormously non-mathematical guy understands it—is a continuation of a cube into another, a 5th, dimension.  Some people can momentarily visualize this construction, most people simply don't have the ability.  They don't see how somebody can apparently walk into or out of a featureless cube; or how, once inside, they can walk from one apparently featureless room to another that can't be seen from the first.  Yet the geometry is all there, folded in on itself in some way beyond my personal understanding.

     Children before a certain age if asked if they'd rather have a nickel or a dime will always chose the nickel, no matter how often you explain to them that the dime is worth more.  Their brains can't hold the notion that something larger in size isn't larger in value.

     I think the problem with this type of question, the "What sort of God permits the innocent to die?" sort of question runs into the problem of the human ability to conceptualize.  The "making of man in God's image" is a great comfort to man.  I don't know that it's something that we need to take as a limiting factor on God.

     Then, being more of an agnostic than anything else right now myself, with something of a tendency, maybe, toward belief, I would have to add the big IIF.  And yes, in addition these days, I sometimes waver in my belief in man, should there be such a thing.
Larry C
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13 posted 02-11-2008 06:25 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Ah, but your question assumes God created sin.
Huan Yi
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14 posted 02-11-2008 07:40 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


As far as I understand,
most major religions assume
an omnipotent as well as omniscient God.

.
Bob K
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15 posted 02-12-2008 03:14 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear John,

         Omnipotent and omniscient automatically demand a perspective vastly different than ours, and a set of considerations and actions that are different from ours as well.  Most of the time when we try to make demands on things we don't understand and can't control we end up  puzzled and bewildered and, very often, bitter and enraged.  I guess I should speak for myself here.  It's hard for me to feel justified, though, in blaming the unknown for not playing by my rules.

     It should, mind you.  I have no quarrel with myself about that.  It's simply that I have no particular recourse when the unknown refuses to play by my rules.  

Stephanos
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16 posted 02-12-2008 12:31 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

BobK,

I think John is asking the question with a view of the religious perspective (particularly the Christian perspective) that God makes himself known, that he is not so wholly "other" as to be beyond compassion, or to be unable to identify with our plight and suffering ... and that his is not so weak that he can do nothing about it.  

It is only with this perspective in view (a personal God) that questions of Theodicy like this even matter.  Why would "the force" care one whit about cancer or a broken heart?  If you've ever read the book of Job, or the Psalms, it is plain that there can be some merit to the feeling of "having recourse" with God about how things are going; resulting in God changing things, or changing the supplicant.  Often those Old Testament saints would be audacious enough to remind God of his own standards or words ... and questions like "Why" or "How long" became very acute at times.


But I do grant (in accordance with what you say) that a personal relationship with God does not guarantee that ALL will be known.  Even in human relationships (particularly between parent and child), there are perplexities and necessities that the child could never understand even if it were told in great detail.  I'm quite certain there's something like that going on with unexplained suffering.


Stephen
Essorant
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17 posted 02-12-2008 02:41 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Trying to get help from God is like trying to pull teeth.
Stephanos
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18 posted 02-12-2008 04:07 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

The problem with that outlook is that he gave you the teeth.  

Stephanos
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19 posted 02-13-2008 08:09 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

A little bit off topic (from the problem of Evil, in general, to the problem of delayed or unanswered prayer in particular), but I wanted to post a link to a chapter of "The Training of The Twelve" by A.B. Bruce.

Might be of some interest to you Essorant ... though the chapter offers no quick fix, it is full of suggestive themes better suited for meditation than the ingestion of sound-bytes.  

Here's a sample, speaking of Jesus' teachings on prayer via his "Parable of the Unjust Judge":


"The genial, kindly character of the argument is manifest from the insight and sympathy displayed therein. Jesus divines what hard thoughts men think of God under the burden of unfulfilled desire; how they doubt His goodness, and deem Him indifferent, heartless, unjust. He shows His intimate knowledge of their secret imaginations by the cases He puts; for the unkind friend and unnatural father, and we may add, the unjust judge, are pictures not indeed of what God is, or of what He would have us believe God to be, but certainly of what even pious men sometimes think Him to be. And He cannot only divine, but sympathize. He does not, like Job’s friends, find fault with those who harbor doubting and apparently profane thoughts, nor chide them for impatience, distrust, and despondency. He deals with them as men compassed with infirmity, and needing sympathy, counsel, and help. And in supplying these, He comes down to their level of feeling, and tries to show that, even if things were as they seem, there is no cause for despair. He argues from their own thoughts of God, that they should still hope in Him. 'Suppose,' He says in effect, 'God to be what you fancy, indifferent and heartless, still pray on; see, in the case I put, what perseverance can effect. Ask as the man who wanted loaves asked, and ye shall also receive from Him who seems at present deaf to your petitions. Appearances, I grant, may be very unfavorable, but they cannot be more so in your case than in that of the petitioner in the parable; and yet you observe how he fared through not being too easily disheartened' ...

For these reasons should all men pray, and not faint. Prayer is rational, even if the Divine Being were like men in the average, not indisposed to do good when self-interest does not stand in the way — the creed of heathenism. It is still more manifestly rational if, as Christ taught and Christians believe, God be better than the best of men — the one supremely good Being — the Father in heaven. Only in either of two cases would prayer really be irrational: if God were no living being at all, — the creed of atheists, with whom Christ holds no argument; or if He were a being capable of doing things from which even bad men would start back in horror, i.e., a being of diabolic nature, — the creed, it is to be hoped, of no human being.
"


http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bruce/twelve.ix.html


Stephen
Essorant
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20 posted 02-14-2008 12:55 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos,

I don't think that people that are suffering and dying of a sickness usually tend not to pray, nor their family members, nor their friends, no matter how hard the condition becomes.  And yet, although some survive, for all the prayers of others, so many others' lives are ended.  Is God just plain inconsistent then?  He only picks and chooses some, even though he has the ability that he could save all?  

Many thanks to God for "teeth".  But when we need a "dentist", it is mortal men we must most rely on, not the immortal God.  

But, perhaps it does make sense to some extent.  I wouldn't think first of requesting help from the Prime Minister if I were sick and dying, why then would I think first of requesting help from God, someone that is even higher up than the Prime Minister?  I wouldn't.  It is not the Prime Minister's job to be the local dentist or doctor.  It is the local dentist or doctor's job.  The Prime Minister may do something unexpected and beyond the call of duty sometimes, but it would be out of place to expect that of him.


matronmedusa
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21 posted 03-11-2008 09:39 AM       View Profile for matronmedusa   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for matronmedusa

In the climax of a symphony;
melodies bring you to your knees

emotions entwined with tightened strings
plucking the heart as it softly sings

and when the music sadly cries
you wipe the tears from your eyes

As sad and true as it may ring
the music was lovely just the same

And even though the song must end;
it leads the way for the next to begin.

It matters not how long it plays
the melody fulfills all of its days...

somewhere, somehow peace is found
when the world sings it spins around

It takes all voices to make it go;
trumpets of joy; violins of woe

It seems this life is but a stage
for all emotions to dance and play...

Just like the sun sings of light
the moon will sing her song of night

and all the creatures great and small
will find their voice derived of the "All."

[This message has been edited by matronmedusa (03-11-2008 10:15 AM).]

serenity blaze
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22 posted 03-23-2008 08:52 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I wanted to say, especially today, that this is a very personal matter of decision.

My mother would tell you that you can't reconcile God and mourning. She would tell you that my own brand of reconcilation is convenient rationalization. If she would ever talk about her losses at all.

I am not enough to comfort her.

I don't think I should expect to be enough, either. One child, Two, or three children is not enough when you are accustomed to counting to five.

I think I finally understood that today--actually, comprehension is a better word. "Understanding" implies that I know how she feels.

As much as I do love her and as helpless as I feel, I hope I never fully understand her pain.
serenity blaze
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23 posted 03-23-2008 09:05 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

mea culpa everybody--I meant to post this to another topic that was worded similarly.

sorry again

Earl Robertson
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24 posted 05-05-2008 02:49 PM       View Profile for Earl Robertson   Email Earl Robertson   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Earl Robertson

Do you believe in Heaven and Hell?

Think about it this way, you get to Heaven automaticaly if you're perfectly innocent when you die. I would much rather suffer cancer for a few months than Hell for a few eternitys.
The prayer "Heal my child" which is in every parents heart at a time like that is ALWAYS answered. Just not always literaly.

We do not ask why because we realy want to know. What we want to know is that God is at the helm getting us to prove to ourselves how worthy we are.
Children who die were soo good that they didn't have to.

"We all lead such elaborate lives, We don't know who's words are true." Aida

 
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