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Passions in Poetry

Turning The Other Cheek

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TomMark
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75 posted 12-28-2007 11:49 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Sir Essorant,
"How is sacrificing one's own son (or anyone for that matter) a good deed?"

"sacrificing" ..the meaning here is to went through death which was brought on to this world by sin. But Jesus was sinless.

Jesus died but resurrected in three days  which tells the whole human race that there is a after life. He is the example.

God does this is out of love.....why flood again?

"good deed".... After that,  the Holy spirit came and the holy spirit, you know, the source of love, hope and faith. The spirit will with human beings whoever follows his teaching.

my thought

PS why stop commenting in CA?  
Stephanos
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76 posted 12-28-2007 11:50 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant, there aspects of this, which make it unique.  For one, Jesus was willing to do the Father's will, and knew the benefit that would ensue.  Secondly, besides being the Father's Son, Jesus is also thought of as the human incarnation of God himself.  (Yes that's where the Trinity comes in)  Taking these things into account, it has been viewed as something like paying someone else's debt, or taking the place of someone else's punishment ... And that's where it becomes something understandable to us.

Also, most of us understand the concept that "the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few".  And though that principle has been used as an excuse to do some really horrible things, we see how it can be valid in certain circumstances.  If the crucifixion seems unjust to you, perhaps you should consider the greater good of salvation.  It might also be more easily accepted by you, if you remember that it was a most willing act, on the part of the sacrificed.


It's also easier to grasp the spirit of this, if one reads it from the source, not the cliff notes (so to speak).  The book of Luke is a good place to start.  Though I prefer more contemporary translations, you could even read it in the 1611 KJV, which might make it more enjoyable to you.  


Stephen
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77 posted 12-28-2007 12:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...which  all leads me back to the point I've discussed many times. Allowing Jesus to die and then bringing him back to life is not a sacrifice....having him remain dead would be. God may have sacrificed Jesus' time on earth but that's it. The phrase "God sacrificed His  son" is erronious since Jesus came back to life, as was God's plan all along.

Did Houdini sacrifice his beautiful assistant by sawing her in half, even though afterwards she appeared back to being whole again, bowing to the thunderous applause? Nope. God did a Houdini...
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78 posted 12-28-2007 12:30 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

My dear Sir Balladeer (I am very careful now)

"which  all leads me back to the point I've discussed many times. Allowing Jesus to die and then bringing him back to life is not a sacrifice"

I have to, too, bring back the point I made it 5 minutes ago, the "sacrifice" here is not the common human sense.  It is the worst betray not only in spiritual but in physical body too of Himself.

There was a poem by Petôfi Sándor
Forgive me for the bad translation (can't find a English translation)

Life is precious
Love worths even more
but for the sake of freedom
I care neither

Even human consider  many things are more worthy than his own individual life.

And how do you feel about "personal attack"? The rule was there when the site was built but someone rude  like me still wanted to touch it. Then comes your punishment and forgiveness system.
Do you feel hurt when I "attack" you? and how many times you intended to protect your teammate (Sir Brad?) Yes, the feelings, the feelings, the feelings.
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79 posted 12-28-2007 02:18 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Put all the mist, metaphors and romantic thought around it as you want, but it is just round-a-about way of trying to glorify a horrible death that never ought to happen to anyone.   There is no salvation brought to anyone by a man being hung on a cross to die, especially not a man as great as Christ.
Stephanos
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80 posted 12-28-2007 04:50 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Balladeer:  
quote:
God may have sacrificed Jesus' time on earth but that's it. The phrase "God sacrificed His  son" is erronious since Jesus came back to life, as was God's plan all along.

Did Houdini sacrifice his beautiful assistant by sawing her in half, even though afterwards she appeared back to being whole again, bowing to the thunderous applause?

And you continue to deny the most important distinction between Jesus and the sleight of hand you just described ... Jesus really died.  

Its trifling to argue that the crucifixion of Christ should not be called a sacrifice just because you think resurrection makes death insignificant.  In a worldview that asserts a future resurrection for all, how does that follow?  I believe you will be raised from the dead, and yet that wouldn't devalue (in my eyes or yours) any kind of sacrifice you might make for someone else ... whether of money, time, or blood.

For no matter where you're heading, you're still where you are.  


Essorant:
quote:
put all the mist, metaphors and romantic thought around it as you want, but it is just round-a-about way of trying to glorify a horrible death that never ought to happen to anyone.


Sometimes romanticism clarifies things Essorant.  The most romantically poetic of pipsters should know that!  You can choose a flatly prosaic way to look at anything and miss the soul and spirit of it.  I think that's what you may be doing here.  

First of all the crucifixion of Christ is not merely portrayed as good, as something to be glibly accepted and celebrated.  It's not that simple.  True to the strangeness of life, its more complicated than that.   Of course it was something that "never ought to happen to anyone".  I think the writers of the New Testament concede that point, because its humanly impossible not to.  But "ought not" and "need not" may not always be synonymous.  Far from glorifying murder, the crucifixion makes it appear for what it really is ... and yet still shows that God may bring good out of the very worst.  In this kind of world, I think we need to know that.

quote:
There is no salvation brought to anyone by a man being hung on a cross to die, especially not a man as great as Christ


Then you deny the central teaching of the New Testament and the experiential witness of millions of Christians.  

It actually reminds me of Christ's response to Peter in Matthew 16:21-23 (emphasis mine).

"From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 'Never, Lord!' he said. 'This shall never happen to you!'

Jesus turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.'
"

Or think of it this way Ess ... Even you said that the gods are best when they become men.  Well in this wickedly wrought death, God was becoming man at his very worst, so that all may have hope.  So that God could really say "I've been there".  

Stephen

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (12-28-2007 05:42 PM).]

TomMark
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81 posted 12-28-2007 05:15 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Sir Essorant, you may drew any conclusion based on your observation.

You were right in some part. It was a horrible death. Some more horrible death are more glorified  than his indeed, esp in war time. one death could save dozens lives. But no one has been  made into a God's son.

And what is your meaning of "salvation"?
Do you believe it? yes? why? no? why?
Stephanos
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82 posted 12-28-2007 05:39 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Regina:  
quote:
I feel it depends on the situation, and there are many ways a person might manage to "turn the other cheek."

I just wanted to add that I thought your response was very astute.  In studying this out, I haven't come as far as Reb in thinking that "turning the other cheek" was a sign of subversion and rebellion to the powers that be.  (too many other things Jesus said against zealotry and about submission to authority make this unlikely)  But even the scholar F.F. Bruce noted that "it is not difficult to see the other cheek being turned in a very provocative manner".  When I read that by Bruce, I thought of the little old lady you described, and couldn't help but smile.


Stephen  
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83 posted 12-28-2007 06:16 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“Sometimes romanticism clarifies things Essorant.  The most romantically poetic of pipsters should know that!”

Which is itself a romanticism.


“And you continue to deny the most important distinction between Jesus and the sleight of hand you just described ... Jesus really died. "

It was only a couple of centuries ago that, (it is now estimated), as many as
ten percent of those dead in England were interred in their graves or tombs
while still alive.   That’s what a “wake” is about.  I seem to recall that
back in the time of Christ it was tradition to inter or entomb someone
before the sunset of the day of their “death”.  Christ was not  beheaded,
drawn and quartered.  There were a number of resurrections reported before
of lesser figures.  And let’s remember the Romans and most everyone
else at the time seemed to have missed it, (most authorities agree the very brief
mention in Josephus was a later insertion; how near to
the events was the earliest Gospel written).   Islam I think has a figure
or two that simply went away someday to return to make things right.


John
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84 posted 12-28-2007 06:44 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear John,
You want to say that Jesus was not dead. He was not totally dead and he walked out of the tomb alive. (His disciples did not recognize him, why?)

Why not bring out all your puzzlements such as
1. Did God create the world? and in 7 days?
2. Did God only talk to certain people? why? why only moses? why many so all could write done something?
3. Why God did not kill Adam and eve and make some new un-sined ones?
4. Why flood again?
5 Why Jesus came to the world now so we have more witnesses such as take advantage of youtube?  all Satellite TV?
6 Was Jesus married and have children after walking out of his death?
7 why he need to die?
and many

Besides nature, Bible is the only book that revealed God. If one day that there is a solid prove  that Jesus was not dead. Then the whole religion will be down.
Then God will be  still somewhere.

If there were no God, then I should immediately be my own god or follow some human idols who meet my spirit need. Very simple. I want to know the truth of the world and the human beginning and end and the soul and moral and happiness and love and suffering. It doesn't matter that they are flat facts or curved summary.  
Stephanos
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85 posted 12-28-2007 06:58 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

John,

The "Swoon Theory" has already swooned in my opinion, and its alleged story has many more difficulties (historically speaking) than the orthodox one.  Your approximation of accidental burials of the living-sick in England a couple of centuries ago, with the Roman Guard of the first century A.D. (whose occupation was to inflict capital punishment) is nearly comic.    


"Some ... have suggested that Jesus did not really die on the cross.  Against all the proponents of this so-called 'swoon' theory, as it has often been called, we must stress that the Romans knew how to kill people.  The reappearance of a battered and exhausted Jesus would hardly have suggested that he had gone through death and out the other side, that the kingdom of God had indeed come, that “the resurrection” had occurred ... " (N.T. Wright- emphasis mine)


Stephen
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86 posted 12-28-2007 07:35 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"the Romans knew how to kill people"

Unless they were paid off . . .

It was suspected then . . .


"nearly comic"

Which is more comic:
that, or a man actually dead rising up?

It's been 2,000 years . . .

John
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87 posted 12-28-2007 08:16 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

which is comic?

I want your heart beat faster, dear John, Can I? Now, this is comic.
Stephanos
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88 posted 12-28-2007 09:47 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
"the Romans knew how to kill people"

Unless they were paid off . . .

It was suspected then . . .

The followers of Jesus weren't exactly the rich and famous then ... but let's say they did pay off the Roman soldiers (who would be sentenced to a swift death- for failing at their post).  What would have been their motive?  

In light of the Jewish expectations of the Messiah, and their disappointed desires, what motivation would they have to risk ostracization from the monolithic Jewish society, just to vaunt the triumphs of a corpse?  Sorry, doesn't make sense.  And given the explosive impetus of the Christian beginnings, there has to be a better explanation than hysteria or sleight of hand.

quote:
It's been 2,000 years . . .

And now more than ever, eschatological prophecies are making more sense, and showing more congruity to what we see, not less.  The curious fact of Israel coming center stage to the world's instability is no small coincidence, and one that should get your attention especially (you've just now posted another thread on Philosophy that attests to apocalyptic anxiety, before I even responded) Surely you can at least say with Yeats "some revelation is at hand".  Apocalyptic forboding has increased, and not decreased.  It is at least significant to note that these things were most aptly described by Jesus, when he addressed the end of the age to his inquiring disciples.

Stephen
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89 posted 12-28-2007 10:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Apocalyptic anxiety has always gone in cycles, just as you brought up Yeats (quite a while ago). No doubt it was present duriny the Beubonic plague are, along with the influenza epidemic which killed millions. Any time that there is a reason, it appears. In this nuclear age, combined with the unrest in the world, it is a natural.

Besides, we have Al Gore...
Stephanos
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90 posted 12-29-2007 11:21 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Cycles yes.  And some things that come in cycles intensify and reach a culmination.  That's probably why Jesus described these things as "Birth pangs".  Contractions recur, reminding her of the inevitable ... but not every contraction is indicative of deliverance.  With the advent of the nuclear age we've reached a new plane of apocalyptic possibilities.  

When Jesus talked about the end of the age, he did something that puzzles many people.  He talked simultaneously of immediate events, recurrent events, and culminative events.  His answer to the disciple's question of where and when, was a strange saying about vultures gathering, which amounted to "if the shoe fits, wear it".  There have been many situations in history of apocalyptic significance.  But he also spoke very clearly of culmination which would end in his return.


Just some of my thoughts as I've studied these scriptures over the years.


Stephen      
 
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