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Passions in Poetry

Give and Take

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Susan Caldwell
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25 posted 12-04-2007 01:44 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

Although I thought I wanted an answer like so many that were given (thank you)...Karen's answer is what I needed and didn't know I needed.  

I just needed reassurance that there were people that truly cared enough to think of others first and foremost.  Without reward.

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

TomMark
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26 posted 12-04-2007 02:23 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

please delete.

[This message has been edited by TomMark (12-04-2007 10:05 PM).]

jbouder
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27 posted 12-05-2007 01:13 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

TomMark

quote:
1. If the consequence is not consistent,do people still expect a consequence?


If the desired consequence is inconsistent, then I would expect to see less frequent behavior (since the behavior isn't being reinforced).  Depending on the reinforcement history, a certain consequence might be expected.  As you know, sometimes we experience a consequence that doesn't comport with our expectations.  

In the context of this post, if one expects more gifts if he/she gives more gifts - and then subsequently receive no gifts - one would expect their giving to be curtailed.  At any rate, as the impetus for giving (whatever that might be) decreases in strength, then the giving will probably decrease in frequency.  

quote:
2. Is the expectation a nature or a trained behavior? (by you given examples).


It can be either.  At a very basic level, I think it is part of our nature.  We seem to be wired at a very young age to learn by operant conditioning.  The capacity is certainly there, even in infants.  As we get older, much or our behavior becomes more complex and our reinforcement more abstract, but the basic mechanism (antecedant, behavior, reinforcement) remains pretty much intact.

quote:
3. Is it true that human naturally EXPECT a consequences to any given action? (Sir Ron, do you have good examples to support this statement?)


If, by "naturally," you mean whether it is connected with our biology, I'd say it certainly is.  If nothing else, our ability to connect our behavioral responses to rewards or punishers seems to be part of our biological make-up.  Without the biological capability to make such connections, we wouldn't be able to learn anything.  More complex organisms come to expect reinforcement for behavior (as babies, food or a changed diaper for crying or, as adults, a paycheck for working).  Culture also influences behavior (e.g., giving gifts on December 25).

Jim
TomMark
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28 posted 12-05-2007 03:03 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Thank you Jim for the answer.

Your Expectation probably means perception because human senses and percepts. But to expect is like to predict which needs experience (data collecting, analysis and lay the results out to see the trend) and logic thinking.

sense and perception are human natures but expectation I think, is a learned behave.

The first gift that  human gave out was the gifts to God by Abel and Cain...what do they expect?

Tom

[This message has been edited by TomMark (12-05-2007 11:46 PM).]

jbouder
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29 posted 12-06-2007 11:00 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

TomMark:

Would you have any problems with this statement: "The capacity to expect is engrained in our nature (i.e., biological make-up)"?

Jim
TomMark
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30 posted 12-06-2007 11:08 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Will you please show me the phenotype in earliest stage?

Tom
Susan Caldwell
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31 posted 12-06-2007 11:08 AM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

"The first gift that  human gave out was the gifts to God by Abel and Cain...what do they expect?"

Assuming this is a true story, I would say that they expected to earn the approval of their god.  

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

TomMark
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32 posted 12-06-2007 11:37 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Then Susan, can we say that we give our gifts is for winning other's  approving?

Tom
Susan Caldwell
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33 posted 12-06-2007 11:52 AM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

Yes, sometimes.

I think the answer is yes we get something from giving, but no, we don't always expect it.  Human behavior is that we usually always get something from behaving/acting/reacting a certain way on a consistant basis.  If we repeat a behavior, good or bad, we are getting something from it.  Therefore, we usually get something from giving even if it's just the satisfaction that we are that much more of what society sees as a good person.  Or even just how we view what makes a person a good person.

So, giving in order to receive isn't always a bad thing.  

right?

But what bothers me are the people that give or do something for you and then act as if you must spend some serious amount of time or whatever else doing for them because they did for you.  The kind of person that plans it out and sucks you in.  You get to a point where you refuse to let them do even the smallest thing for you.  

Lunch time!  I need a sammich..

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~
jbouder
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34 posted 12-06-2007 12:27 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

TomMark:

No, but I can certainly show you how its absence or delay manifests behaviorally.

Jim
TomMark
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35 posted 12-06-2007 12:57 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Susan, i just knew that your question started from here

"But what bothers me are the people that give or do something for you and then act as if you must spend some serious amount of time or whatever else doing for them because they did for you".

Do you think that this is their problem? Someone helped you and after that they have to behave in certain way to make your heart at ease. why do you wish that every one has to be super nice?

Tom

TomMark
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36 posted 12-06-2007 01:02 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Then Jim, do please tell me more about "biological make-up" of expectation. What makes you think that it is a gene-or instinct (innate)related behave.

Tom
Susan Caldwell
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37 posted 12-06-2007 01:08 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

"why do you wish that every one has to be super nice?"

That is a rather large assumption...and if I hinted in any way that was my wish..then I beg forgiveness...for it surely is not. Not that wouldn't be nice, but rather I am a fairly logical minded person and that just boggles..it would never happen.

What I want is to be treated how I treat others.  Period.  Treat me how I treat you.    


"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~
TomMark
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38 posted 12-06-2007 01:24 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

You see, Susan, you dare not to acknowledge that you indeed wish every one was super nice.

I do wish this.

And many people around me are indeed super nice. When they found that I was sick(merely coughing), they send over chicken soups and other goodies and many phone calls. Have I done the same to them? yes or no. But they all sure know that I will be always there for them when they are in difficult time.

I always make sure that I make friend with super nice people so I can take advantage of them without guilt. (they did it because they are nice, so I owe nothing to them such as to enjoy greatly myself in PIP)  oh, How bad can I get?!

Tom
Susan Caldwell
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39 posted 12-06-2007 01:59 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

"You see, Susan, you dare not to acknowledge that you indeed wish every one was super nice"

*cough*

Lets try this again and since I know me better than you know me, here is what you should listen to:

I do not wish this.  Nor am I kidding myself about not wishing this.

Since you have no clue what a strong personality I am nor do you understand that I am exceedingly honest, I will give you the benefit of doubt in regards to suggesting I don't know what I want.  

Rest assured, I do.

I want to be treated as I treat others.  If I give I do not do it in hopes of getting something back from those that I have given to.  

I hope I was more clear on my stance this time.  

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

TomMark
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40 posted 12-06-2007 02:02 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Susan, This is this thread about? right?

Tom
jbouder
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41 posted 12-06-2007 02:13 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

TomMark:

The evidence is emerging, but no less compelling.  In these cases, there is very little question in the research community that genetics play a part in the onset of autism in children.  One of the disorder's hallmarks involves how the child acquires skills.  That is, there is often a delay in the child's ability to associate abstract "rewards" with appropriate behavior.

In short, children severely affected by autism must be painstakingly taught how to expect (which is, when you get down to it, a social behavior).  Establishing this very basic skill is the beginning of remediating deficits with which these children were born.

Wiki provides a pretty good summary of the heritability of autism.  I've also linked to abstracts of recent research findings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_autism

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/75342/new_genetic_marker_related_to_autism.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1188990

I think there is, at least, a genetic component to one's capacity to "expect."  The weight of evidence is surely in favor of this.

Jim
Susan Caldwell
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42 posted 12-06-2007 02:15 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

Tom,

Ya lost me.  Not a hard thing to do...

however,

are you suggesting that you and I are somehow now engaged in give and take?

or

that you are enlightening me on your beliefs and trying to pass them off as mine and/or fact?  

Tell me what you think but don't tell me what I think...I already know.

Here is something I believe that should raise a few hairs of the inherently optimistic:

I believe that people (not all, but a large number), when given the belief that they have some sort of anonymity, will engage (act/behave) in aggressive, self-serving, narcissistic behavior.  

I believe this because I drive.  

discuss?

(This does tie into my give and take issue, at least to me).

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

jbouder
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43 posted 12-06-2007 02:31 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

quote:
Human behavior is that we usually always get something from behaving/acting/reacting a certain way on a consistant basis.  If we repeat a behavior, good or bad, we are getting something from it.  Therefore, we usually get something from giving even if it's just the satisfaction that we are that much more of what society sees as a good person.  Or even just how we view what makes a person a good person.


Susan:

We seem to be very much on the same page here (except you are probably much warmer than I am here in Central PA).  Getting something out of giving isn't a bad thing - in fact, I think it is inevitable.

Jim
Susan Caldwell
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44 posted 12-06-2007 02:35 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

Jim,

Yes, and I think I should have been more clear from the beginning..no I don't think it's always a bad thing but when it is, that is just disheartening.

It is nice here today!

Susan

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

TomMark
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45 posted 12-06-2007 02:48 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Susan, your original question

"Is it basic human nature to give only to receive?"

If it is human nature, will you accept it as truth?
will you still expect people giving with heart?
will you still expect pay back
will you still think that others want you to pay back?
will you still receive other's kindness
will you pay pack their kindness?

If it is not human nature but learned behave.
is it good or bad? Can human unlearn about it?

Can people give with heart and receive in peace?

If expect is not genetic, then its personal problem
If it is biological, then it is a social problem.

then don't give, don't receive.

Human being's selfishness is biological. But not spiritual which make us human but not animals. we have conscience.

Here is a very good example in announcement  Forum
Larri C's Thank-You note was very touching and I believe that was truly from his heart

"You and many others know how important a role Pippsters have played in my life. I am truly grateful for each and every friend in this place. I am forever indebted to Ron for building and maintaining it. It has changed my life immensely, thank you, thank you"

After many gave him best birthday wishes, he mentioned that he was forever indebted to Ron. why?

Did Ron expect this? Did we expect this? (shall we expect that he would be indebted more to all the good wishers? rather than to  Ron)

If we do not have a heart of appreciation, we  would make anything ill willed of course including those real ill-willed.

I want to say that expect retuning is not human nature because giving is not a human nature at all. But love changes everything.

Tom
TomMark
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46 posted 12-06-2007 03:19 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Jim, http://www.neurologychannel.com/autism/symptoms.shtml

Show me the symptoms of losing of Expectation.

The reason of Autism is not known yet and if you try to tell me that to teach a Autism child is very hard...obviously if his has defect on sense and then perception. You may only draw conclusion that certain genes are necessary for sense and perception or if for learning and memory.  expectation is high level activity based on a normal base.

I shall leave Autism. which make me cry because I have met one or two of them. I want say that don't try to teach them yet. watch them, observer them first and love them.

Tom
jbouder
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47 posted 12-06-2007 04:26 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Tom:

I'm obviously not going to persuade you that the capacity to expect is genetically determined.  And I don't have to go far to see or interact with people with autism (in fact, I have a 12-year-old with a severe form of the disorder waiting for me at home).  The initial challenge of teaching those severely affected lies in enabling them to connect a behavior with a consequence.  A communicative adult once explained his childhood obsession with turning the light switch on and off repetitively by saying, "I could control it."  He found comfort in the expectation that flipping the switch would turn on the light that he couldn't find in other people and things in his environment.  Would you describe this sort of expectation to be a high level activity?

And waiting to teach them is a very, very bad idea.  It can mean the difference between independence in adulthood or a lifetime of dependence on others for support.  Loving them now is okay.

You can continue to doubt, but you haven't given me reason to believe otherwise.  Show me the evidence that there is no biological component to the phenomena of expectation and maybe I'll come around to seeing things your way.

People who give expect to get something from it.  If they didn't get anything from giving, the giving would become much less frequent.  For some, the motivation is the gift they might receive in return for giving (quid pro quo).  For others, it is self-satisfaction arising from the feelings of affection represented by the gift.  In my view, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the latter.

Jim
Stephanos
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48 posted 12-06-2007 06:56 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
For others, it is self-satisfaction arising from the feelings of affection represented by the gift.  In my view, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the latter.


Jim, is this "self-satisfaction" to be thought of as a goal or motive, or as a kind of corresponding result of seeking something else?

It just seems to me that any "good deed" done merely to procure a self-satisfied feeling, somehow loses its authenticity.  In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul wrote that without love, the best of deeds are as 'clanging cymbals'.  


Is love itself defined by what fine feelings we seek for ourselves?    


Stephen      
Bob K
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49 posted 12-06-2007 09:36 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

    Seems to me that the basic human nature here is not on the side of giving or even that of receiving, but on the side of taking.  Life in the state of nature is nasty, brutish and short, or thereabouts, according to Hobbes; and  I've probably omitted a delectable adjective or two.

     But in the absense of other factors, power does seem to govern.  (Absent other factors, again.)

     The wonder of the basic question, "Is it basic nature to give only to receive?" is that the notion of giving has made it there at all.  Thank you, Susan.

     The true basic situation of early childhood is more like,   What are you going to give me now?  Also, Why is there a gap between me knowing that I need something and your supply of it?  Certainly there are good answers for both questions.  But an infant can't understand them.  I think that's where things start out.

     This being the basic nature of things, at least the place they start, the question becomes, Why would a person do something like giving in the first place?  It's crazy!

     I can understand why, for example, I might want my significant other to supply my every need without my even thinking about formulating what such things might be.

     What the puzzle is, is that I want to love her and cherish her and listen to what she has to say at 3:00 in the morning about my father's behavior last weekend.  This seems beyond belief.  

     There is something about the nature of giving and receiving that changes with the nature of the relationship between the people involved.  If the relationship is predicated on fairness, then your question is indeed a valid one.  There may, however, be other ways of formulating the question that would change things.  

     Given that you want to do no harm, what is the most healing thing for the relationship? might offer one example.  Thoughts?  With interest, BobK

    
 
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