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Passions in Poetry

The Cult of the Virgin Mary

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Stephanos
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25 posted 10-27-2007 07:49 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ess:
quote:
Aren't love and marriage a form of worship too

If they are, it is a form ordained and approved by God as fitting for humans to give and receive.  But if a spouse were to be called (seriously speaking) "God", and given reverence that is due only to divinity, then that would be idolatry.

Just consider what you mentioned ... marital love, and you'll see that this principle applies even to strictly human relationships.  For most would agree that friendship is a form of love as well as marriage;  But if I irrationally and immorally start to give a lady friend the kind of love that is due only to my wife, then I have made one serious categorical mistake ... perhaps a fatal one.  


Stephen
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26 posted 10-28-2007 01:06 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

No problem with that Stephanos.     I was just trying show (although in a roundabout way) that I thought it a bit mistaken to suggest any and all worshipping of people is idolatry.  For a man can worship his wife as a wife, his mother as a mother, his father as a father, brother as brother, sister as a sister, a hero as a hero et cetera, for her/his own good, without worshipping her/him as a "God" too.  

rwood
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27 posted 10-28-2007 07:53 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Ess~ Yeah, “we” is correct, since “I” didn’t get here by meself.

quote:
What exactly are the "courtly traditions" which the Roman Catholic Church considered heretical, and why?  


Stephen~ The first word that came to mind in answer to your question: Camelot.

I promise to have a solid (non-mythical) point.

“Camelot as a place is associated with ideals like justice, bravery and truth, the virtues Arthur and his knights embody in the romances.wiki

Perfect time slot. 12th century trace. Kudos to Chrétien de Troyes.

The concept/theme of romantic love found its way into tradition upon the high courts through the works of French troubadours, (the first rock stars) again--high middle ages, 12th century.

Influential ladies, such as E D’A—in my earlier post, encouraged their messages of romance & eroticism. For the first time in European history, erotic literature/song/poetry was created purely for a female audience, hailing women as forces worthy of all the moral qualities of life AND passion. Openly displayed passion. PDA’s unlike any ever before. “Tennis, anyone?”

“Paris said amour courtois was an idolization and ennobling discipline. The lover (idolizer) accepts the independence of his mistress and tries to make himself worthy of her by acting bravely and honorably (nobly) and by doing whatever deeds she might desire.” wiki

Medieval love games/foreplay with rules of etiquette complete with a code, and since men love to pursue/compete/win, it was just extra fuel for their fire toward chivalry & knighthood. There were a couple of problems with that on both sides of the ruling fences. With such love in the air, and so many Lancelots running around, blue bloods began to seriously question their heirs. Forced/Arranged marriages were the norm and had nothing to do with love, but political & spiritual attainment controlled by the church.

Men & women wanted control in choosing a mate. People wanted to marry for love, no matter what the nobles arranged or what the church said. So the church tightened every thumb-screw down on that notion, because Agape was losing ground to erotic notions, and they were losing control of who was doing who for what, when, how, or why.

quote:
Courtly love saw a woman as an ennobling spiritual and moral force, a view that was in opposition to ecclesiastical sexual attitudes. Rather than being critical of romantic and sexual love as sinful, the poets praised it as the highest good. Marriage had been declared a sacrament of the Church, at the Fourth Lateran Council, 1215, and within Christian marriage, the only purpose was procreation with any sex beyond that purpose seen as non-pious. The ideal state of a Christian was celibacy, even in marriage. By the beginning of the 13th century the ideas of courtly tradition were condemned by the church as being heretical.
wiki.

Was the Pope on dope, or what?

That’s why the Madonna rose as a pearl in the crown of the Pope. She was supposed to cool the moral climate of L O V E and restore piety back to its frigid temps.

My cheeky side says it’s because the church wanted to keep all the hot-sexy men to themselves, which is not completely unfounded, so don’t slay my little dragon thought too quickly.


On another love note, aren’t you a fan of C.S. Lewis’ works?

quote:
C.S. Lewis wrote the influential The Allegory of Love further solidifying courtly love as "love of a highly specialized sort, whose characteristics may be enumerated as Humility, Courtesy, Adultery, and the Religion of Love".
wiki


love,
reg
serenity blaze
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28 posted 10-28-2007 02:05 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

John--I suspect you found what you were "looking for".
Stephanos
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29 posted 10-30-2007 11:43 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Regina,

Thanks for the references.  I am a Lewis fan, but have read little of his works focused more on literary analysis.  I lean more toward his Theological / Philosophical works.  

What you are describing seems to be the battle between a "courtly" tradition that wasn't always noble, and of organized religion that wasn't always sound or godly in its view of sex and love.  What is so noble about adultery?  And what is so stoical about sex that it should be for procreation alone?  The church in her better (and more biblical interpretations) has noted well that God ordained sex, not only as a means to procreate, but as a highly pleasurable celbration of love.  What has been constant in Church history is the insistence upon a covenantal relationship and faithfulness.  The annoying and spurious addition (which turns out to be a subtraction) has been from good men who are ashamed when God has seemed almost Bacchanalian (without the insane autonomy) in his approbations ... good men, who could have been better by not being almost gnostically ashamed of the body.


But considering the imbalance that was there (historically speaking) I can see how Mary was hi-jacked, and how the "virgin cult" was used by the Roman Catholic Church to promote celibacy as the ideal of spiritual perfection, and as a means to try and battle what was viewed as wanton and immoral in the traditions of courtly love.


Stephen        
rwood
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30 posted 10-31-2007 04:23 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Yep, seems the words celibate and celebrate are often the core embodiments of confusion.

"Bacchanalian"...now there's a lost word. Hadn't found that in print in soooo long, though I hadn't looked either. I'm glad you brought that up.

and yes, the Bible holds several wonderful passages that celebrate the becoming factors of "one flesh," all inside the beautiful realm of marriage.

though the "M" word is probably a dead horse for me.

don't be sad for me though, be happy for the guys that get away....mmuuuwwwwaaahhaha.

 
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