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Passions in Poetry

Are Humans Animals?

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LadyTom
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100 posted 03-03-2008 10:45 PM       View Profile for LadyTom   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LadyTom

If cat can write poems.

I absolutely hate cats....an animal without loyalty.
Stephanos
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101 posted 03-05-2008 05:24 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

An animal without loyalty?  How about an animal without equals?  


Stephen
LadyTom
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102 posted 03-05-2008 07:25 PM       View Profile for LadyTom   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LadyTom

I absolutely hate cats....an animal without loyalty....TM

First, this my true feelings about cat.
Second, when we say that Human is different from animal, we don't say who is better or worse.
Has cat ever bothered me? There was once a white cat tried to kick me on the leg. I may dislike cat for any reasons but I doubt that any cats that "hate" me. The authority, controlling power on other species is very unique in human. To me it is cat. To others it might be spiders, earthworms, fur things.

See, Stephen, this is called not equal.... We can dislike animals. Animals may not have the unjust feelings toward us except some see us as their food.
oceanvu2
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103 posted 03-06-2008 03:18 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

What happens if "judgement" is taken out of the equation?  Is the prediliction to make judgements, or the impossibility not to make judgements, an integral part of the human/animal?  Does it make sense to suggest that we are animals pre-occupied with making judgements?  If we do judge, are we just animals doing our particular animal thing?  If we don't judge, aren't we still animals?

Jimbeaux
TomMark
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104 posted 03-06-2008 11:16 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Jim, "judgment" can not be taken away because it is an unique human character. All   bias, all wars, are all based on it. I think that it would be un-realistic  to drop it.
My thought.
Essorant
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105 posted 03-08-2008 10:46 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant



Judgement is not unique to humans.  All animals with brains have judgement. The only living things that don't make judgements are plants and the like, only because they don't have brains.  

oceanvu2
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106 posted 03-08-2008 11:20 AM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

ESS:  Are there differences between instinct, choice and judgement? Some birds eat seeds.  Some birds eat bugs. Is that a choice? Seed-eaters don't seem to make the judgement that bug-eaters are bad.

Best, Jimbeaux  
LadyTom
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107 posted 03-08-2008 11:39 AM       View Profile for LadyTom   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LadyTom

exactly! dear Jim.
Have a very wonderful weekend!!!
Essorant
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108 posted 03-08-2008 11:59 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

For sure.  The bird needs to judge that has an appetite for a seed to begin with, judge that what is there is a seed, judge if it is safe to eat, judge the distance between itself and the seed, judge the safety, etc and then judge and choose finally to go get the seed.  Although this may happen very naturally and quickly, certainly it includes all three of the things you mentioned, instinct, choice, and judgement.  

oceanvu2
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109 posted 03-08-2008 12:10 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

The only thing it doesn't do is judge.  It needs, sees, calculates, etc.  It doesn't seem to ask itself whether it is morally right to eat a seed or not, which would be judgement.

  Jimbeaux
Essorant
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110 posted 03-08-2008 12:34 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But there are more judgements than just "moral", Jim.  We judge ability, distance, safety, etc.  But I don't think there is an absence of moral judgement in other animals, it is just more like a stub, that is more like a branch in the human.  Other animals know and judge good and evil, in that they know and judge something that helps them survive distinct from what endangers, threatens, harms.  That choosing a seed may not include much moral judgement on a bird's part, certainly doesn't mean that a bird doesn't make moral judgements.  As long as any animal recognizes what helps him survive, or recognizes danger, avoiding it or trying to make it go away, I think he is truly making a moral judgement.

oceanvu2
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111 posted 03-08-2008 07:58 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

ESS:  RE:  "But there are more judgements than just "moral", Jim.  We judge ability, distance, safety, etc.

Judging ability involves referencing the moral consideration of "fairness."  Accurately measuring distance doesn't involve judgement.  Estimating distance involves guessing, informed or not, not judgement about whether it is a good distance, bad distance, or indifferent distance.  The notion of safety is related to moral distinction.  Something, someone, or an action is regarded as safe or unsafe based on moral preconditioning.

I already lost one lengthy, reasoned reply to your position by being dumb enough to write "in the box."

To cut this one short and preserve it, I suggest that God had a great take on the subject:  "Judge not, that ye be not judged."  A primary moral and exclusively human consideration.

I don't know if this notion plays much of a role in the minds of other animals.

Do other animals with brains experience a level of consciousness of their environment?  I think so.  Are they self-aware?  I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a deer surely hurts on an individual level when somebody shoots it.

RE: "Other animals know and judge good and evil, in that they know and judge something that helps them survive distinct from what endangers, threatens, harms."

Well, I think that's a difficult stretch. An other than human animal's ability to distinguish good-for-me from bad-for-me doesn't mean it views a situation, opportunity, or event as either good or evil in a human sense.  "Evil" is the particularly charged word, though I can't buy "good" either.  

Last, when the post humanizes animals into a "he" or "him," I think it raises more questions that it answers.

Best, Jimbeaux.  
  

matronmedusa
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112 posted 03-09-2008 03:26 AM       View Profile for matronmedusa   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for matronmedusa

Some say the difference between man and animal is that animals do not have a soul; man does.  I cannot see ANY living creature as NOT having a soul; surely even rocks must hold the spiritual energy of God in order to "be."

Others say that the difference is that humans have a sense of humor and animals don't.  Having owned and observed many animals throughout my life, I must say they certainly have a sense of humor.

Still, others say that the difference is that humans were given free choice.  Personally, I don't see how animals don't have free choice...  My dog is very picky over which table scraps he prefers.  He knows exactly what he likes; and he will choose that over something he doesn't.

Some people even say it is the level of intelligence; but I know many people that continue to make the same mistakes over and over, despite the turmoil they put themselves through... My dog only needed to get into the trash once before he learned it was a really bad idea.

I feel that the difference is the ability (or perhaps the drive) to question our existance.    
  
matronmedusa
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113 posted 03-09-2008 03:31 AM       View Profile for matronmedusa   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for matronmedusa

"Last, when the post humanizes animals into a "he" or "him," I think it raises more questions that it answers."

Perhaps it's a subtle way of inadvertantly
reminding us that maybe we are not that different after all.
 
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