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Passions in Poetry

Just Who Is This God

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TomMark
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50 posted 01-03-2008 06:26 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

FatesWarning,

"What I mean is that I don't believe a Creator would expect billions upon billions of human beings to worship Him or "reach" His or Her people through one particular type of religion.  That concept doesn't make sense to me and is what I believe to be true."


You are perfectly correct.

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,(Romans 1:19-21)


"When I forgive or feel empathy, sympathy, love, hate, etc... that comes from what is inside me or what makes me a human being - from both my heart and mind... otherwise simply stated as from the heart."

Have you ever wonder how hate and love come out from the same place as we know, the heart (or mind) ?
FatesWarning
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51 posted 01-03-2008 07:10 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

TomMark,

You say I am "perfectly correct" then quote Romans to show otherwise.

I don't believe that the Bible is the true word of a Creator. I believe there are truths to be found in many religious doctrines.

To Grinch, TomMark and others...

I understand what Grinch is saying. I have run into many Christians who have attempted to force their beliefs down my throat - lest I suffer in an eternal hellfire. However, (to Grinch) because Christians are the majority in this country, I don't think one is going to find many Muslims, if at all, who are going to force their views on any of us.

As for knowing what one believes to be true, how can that be and why would that person need faith if they know?

TomMark
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52 posted 01-03-2008 07:52 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear FatesWarning,
This is philosophy forum, so we are talking about the philosophy of our lives. If anything I said made you upset, do please let me know.

"You say I am "perfectly correct" then quote Romans to show otherwise."

what shall I say? "I totally agree with you" ? But I still need to quote what I believe to further support me, right?

Looking around of our surroundings and all the natural laws and we may have a calculation of many things and the conscience(the universal moral code), what conclusion you may drew?

"I don't believe that the Bible is the true word of a Creator. I believe there are truths to be found in many religious doctrines."

May I ask what the common truths in all religions? And why there are truths in all kind of religions?
You may say that people think alike then I'll ask you why? Then you may say that we are all humans then I would ask you then why some love and some kill?
Stephanos
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53 posted 01-03-2008 09:55 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

FW
quote:
I don't believe that the Bible is the true word of a Creator. I believe there are truths to be found in many religious doctrines.

But why are you sure these two beliefs are mutually exclusive?  I also believe that there are truths to be found in many religious doctrines.  We of course still have to decide which is right, when those doctrines really do contradict.  The uniqueness of Christianity lies in the work and person of Christ, not in the surrounding religious truths that many religions already accept.  There is no claim that it is wholly different from other religious beliefs in every way.  

quote:
As for knowing what one believes to be true, how can that be and why would that person need faith if they know?


Questions and threads that are statedly about this subject kind of rule out the “shoving” of beliefs charge, right?  So with that clarified, I would like to honestly try to answer your question.    

I would like to ask you whether or not you “know” things for which your evidence is not total.  Faith has often wrongly been described as a romantic notion held despite obvious falsity.  But that’s not what Christian faith is.  The kind of faith described in the Bible is never described in terms of a mere shot in the dark, and yet never as something like statistical certainty either.  It is not contrary to evidence; It is even confirmed by evidence, though it recognizes that what is seen will always be partial.  (By the way, this is also true of any kind of knowledge).  But in addition to having confirmations in the natural world, Christian faith is also based upon what Theologians have called “Special Revelation”.  So in addition to natural correspondence to what “faith” says, there is always a necessary element of trust.  The interpretive aspect of "evidence" demands it.  

Let me ask you this.  To you, does faith mean to belief without knowledge?  If so I’d like to ask you ... Have you ever believed anything that was true on someone else’s word, that you weren’t able to totally verify for yourself (at least for a time)?  If so, at least you can understand that knowledge and faith need not be contradictory.                

Stephen.

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (01-03-2008 11:34 PM).]

FatesWarning
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54 posted 01-05-2008 11:57 AM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

TomMark,

[Supposing that there is a Creator]

1st Question - Various religions teach that one should love his/her neighbor and not to kill another human being, etc.

2nd Question - Because the Creator is making himself/herself be known to the human race

3rd Question - There are many reasons why people think alike and not alike - politics, philosophies, social, religious, socio-economics, etc.

4th Question - For many reasons; genetics, socio-economics, psychological, etc.
Stephanos,

1st Question - I didn't say they were.

About Uniqueness - Every religion has its "uniqueness."

2nd Question - I guess.  

3rd Question - No. However, faith in a religious believe is a necessity because one cannot be certain that what they believe is true. Now, if you have actually physically  sat down with God and spoke with Him or Her, then you would not need faith.

4th Question - Yes, Santa Clause
  

Stephanos
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55 posted 01-05-2008 01:22 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

If you'll re-read my last question, I asked whether you've ever believed anything true, that was based upon someone else's word.

Are you turning over another new leaf?

Stephen
FatesWarning
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56 posted 01-05-2008 01:25 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

Santa isn't real? There are millions of children who would state otherwise.

Now to re-answer your last question: If they knew it to be true. In this case the dead would have to come back and tell me that there is a God and that God is the [in your faith] Christian God.
Stephanos
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57 posted 01-05-2008 01:32 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

You didn't answer my last question.

Stephen
FatesWarning
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58 posted 01-05-2008 01:52 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

Yes, I did. Now it is your turn to reread.

I'll give you a, as Stewie would say, "hinty-hint-hint."  The answer didn't change, only the explanation.
Stephanos
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59 posted 01-05-2008 02:54 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

My last question was:

"Are you turning over another new leaf?"

Stephen
FatesWarning
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60 posted 01-05-2008 03:08 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

"If you'll reread my last question..." That is the last question I am talking about. lol

Stephanos
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61 posted 01-05-2008 03:16 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Oh, forget my silliness.

I am, however, intrigued by your name "FatesWarning".  I understand that is a Death-Metal band, similar to the band "Opeth".  Do you also like Opeth?

Stephen
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62 posted 01-05-2008 03:25 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

Your research fails you. Fates Warning is not a death metal band. Never has been and never will.
TomMark
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63 posted 01-05-2008 03:39 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

FatesWarning
"1st Question - Various religions teach that one should love his/her neighbor and not to kill another human being, etc."

Why do they teach the same thing? because every one sees the same human problem. Have any religions got rid of the human problem?  

"3rd Question - There are many reasons why people think alike and not alike - politics, philosophies, social, religious, socio-economics, etc."

People do think alike.

"4th Question - For many reasons; genetics, socio-economics, psychological, etc."

because people think alike so the environment  play a role --chance or not have chance.

[This message has been edited by TomMark (01-05-2008 04:20 PM).]

Stephanos
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64 posted 01-05-2008 03:42 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

You've got a point.  A couple of times on the web, I did see them referred to as "Progressive-Death-Metal".  But what's in a label anyway?  We can shed labels so easily, and take on new ones.  

So do you also like Opeth?

Stephen.
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65 posted 01-05-2008 04:16 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Which has benefited man on Earth more,
religion or science?

.
TomMark
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66 posted 01-05-2008 04:24 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

you Huan, of course religion. which history is longer? science or religion? Human has religion when they eat raw!! (fruit)
and From the second generation.

As for benefit, who is going to define it?

[This message has been edited by TomMark (01-05-2008 05:25 PM).]

FatesWarning
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67 posted 01-05-2008 07:14 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

Stephanos,

So where on the web have you seen Fates Warning labeled as death metal? And who on the web said it? I mean, after all, I could call Family Guy a kiddie cartoon, but that doesn't make it one.

EDIT: In context, shedding your shedding labels comment doesn't apply to this particular subject matter.

Stephanos
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68 posted 01-05-2008 07:14 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Which has benefited man on Earth more,
religion or science?

What if that's asking something like:  Which has benefited man on Earth more, light or water?

Stephen
FatesWarning
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69 posted 01-05-2008 07:19 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

TomMark,

2nd Round

1st Question - Not exactly the same thing, but basic principles that lead to order, peace and harmony in order for the human race to be successful in life

2nd Question - Completely, no.

Some people think alike while others don't.

Stephanos
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70 posted 01-05-2008 07:20 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

FW:
quote:
Stephanos,

So where on the web have you seen Fates Warning labeled as death metal? And who on the web said it? I mean, after all, I could call Family Guy a kiddie cartoon, but that doesn't make it one.

Or you could say that "Family Guy" is significantly different than the Simpsons, but I suspect you like them both, and therefore they hold something in common.  You could also say that "Fates Warning" is not the same as "Opeth".  But I suspect that you like them both.  And for that reason, one could almost surmise them to be one and the same.

Stephen
FatesWarning
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71 posted 01-05-2008 07:23 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

Stephanos,

Fates Warning is not the same as Opeth. Not even close, so what you said is not true. Your surmising seems to be lacking in understanding.

I hope you aren't as faulty in your surmising of matters in faith and religion.

TomMark
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72 posted 01-05-2008 07:49 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

FatesWarning
"but basic principles that lead to order, peace and harmony in order for the human race to be successful in life"

DO you see that that goal is meet?

Why do we need to be taught of those things? Who authorize them to teach?
FatesWarning
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73 posted 01-05-2008 11:57 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

"DO" why yell?

Round 3

Question 1 - It will never be fully met.

Question 2 - Not all people need to be taught those things. With some, it is inherent.

Question 3 - Those who teach it themselves.
TomMark
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74 posted 01-06-2008 12:29 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear FatesWarning,
I did not yell.     It was typo

"It will never be fully met."    why?
"it is inherent."                How? by genes?

"Those who teach it themselves." How does human beings with low moral teach oneself to be a high moral Being?
 
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