How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Just Who Is This God   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Just Who Is This God

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


25 posted 12-30-2007 08:08 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
We, in general, don't know what we worship such as an atheist does not really know what he is worshiping as an atheist because there is not a thorough knowledge or enough evidence to build an atheist un-divine un-god but he still proudly worship the un-divine un-god.


Tom, reading the above it seems you have a misguided understanding of atheism.

Atheism is a label attributed to people who do not believe in gods, atheists do not worship either gods or un-gods due to the  fact that they donít believe either exists.

Think of it this way, if people who believe in fairies decide to call themselves fairy lovers and dance naked at midnight thatís fine by me. If they want to call me a non-fairy lover I can live with that too, but saying that I worship some sort of non-fairy seems a bit of a stretch, donít you?

I donít believe in god or fairies btw.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


26 posted 12-30-2007 08:21 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

You may not believe they exist, but you know of them and that's why you have a belief about them.  If they didn't exist to know about, then you wouldn't have their existance to disbelieve in in the first place.
FatesWarning
Junior Member
since 12-27-2007
Posts 31


27 posted 12-30-2007 08:26 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

That makes sense to me.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


28 posted 12-30-2007 09:28 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
You may not believe they exist, but you know of them and that's why you have a belief about them. If they didn't exist to know about, then you wouldn't have their existence to disbelieve in in the first place.


Well done Ess, youíve either just proved  that gods, fairies and the spaghetti monster actually exist outside the minds of men or your logic is flawed and all youĎve proved is that people can imagine lots of things that donĎt actually exist anywhere outside the minds of men.

FatesWarning
Junior Member
since 12-27-2007
Posts 31


29 posted 12-30-2007 09:32 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

I think Ess meant that they exist either literally or a creation from the minds of men. I may be wrong, but I look at it like this:

If a person never heard of the term God and the definition of God, then that person can neither believe or disbelieve in God.

I think that is what Ess meant.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


30 posted 12-30-2007 09:44 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
If a person never heard of the term God and the definition of God, then that person can neither believe or disbelieve in God.


When asked the question ďdo you believe in godĒ their answer would be?

Itís back to the misconception of atheism as a self selected label, itĎs like saying that someone canĎt be called a teenager if they never heard the term.

If you do not believe in god you are an atheist, unless you want to attempt to straddle the excluded middle and claim agnosticism.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


31 posted 12-30-2007 10:55 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Fateswarning

See here.

"Most horseriders ride a horse because they believe in the horse they ride.  Atheism, though, rides a horse it doesn't believe in: theism, backwards."

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


32 posted 12-31-2007 12:29 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

FW:
quote:
Stephanos,

Upon reading your replies in different threads, including this one, you seem to have all of the answers. Do you think that to be true?


No, I think that's a misconception on your part.  I don't know all the answers.  But there are some ultimate kinds of answers that I am sure of.  It always seems to me these kinds of arguments are not really about someone being a know-it-all ... but about whether anyone can know-anything-at-all when it comes to certain kinds of questions.  It is an arbitrary separation of religious knowledge from other kinds of knowledge.  And I simply diagree with an epistemology that says "you can't know these things for sure".  Why?  Well for one, you would have to have the kind of certainty you argue against, to be sure of that very thing.  Agnosticism (fairly, on its own terms) cannot involve a universal application, but only a personal one ... else it becomes a more ambitious universal claim of truth, even if it is a negation.  


Grinch,

I'm on a work weekend, and would like to reply more thoroughly than I am currently able.  Give me a couple of days.


Happy New Year to all,

Stephen  
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


33 posted 12-31-2007 12:57 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Thanks Stephanos.  

God give and make to thee appear
A heaven-bright and blest new year.

  

TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


34 posted 12-31-2007 01:24 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Grinch,
"I donít believe in god or fairies btw" and you don't believe universal moral code either. What is your individual moral code which guide your daily life? THAT is the ungod that you are worshiping.

Am I right?


FatesWarning

"What counts is what is inside one's heart."

Kindly tell me
1. what is heart?
2. what is in the heart? (God, god, self-made moral code, parent's teaching, cultural tradition)
3. what is the line to divide good /bad, acceptable/not acceptable, shall live/shall die.
4. who shall draw the line.
5. who shall do the fair judgment based the line.
6. who comes to do final counts? to say your heart is good and his heart is bad? based on what kind of statistical data? (as how many good things he did to make him a person with a good heart?)

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


35 posted 12-31-2007 08:34 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
What is your individual moral code which guide your daily life?


Itís a moral code, similar to yours but not exactly the same hence the term individual.

quote:
THAT is the ungod that you are worshiping


Why would anyone worship a moral code? Do you worship your moral code?

TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


36 posted 12-31-2007 12:40 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

It is like " mirror, mirror on the wall and who is the fairest of all" kind of daily self-evaluation for a good gentleman.

But I do worship God, God words(the holy spirit, the law). and will be judged by God but not by myself or others.

My thought.

Happy New Year again to you!

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


37 posted 12-31-2007 02:00 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
It is like " mirror, mirror on the wall and who is the fairest of all" kind of daily self-evaluation for a good gentleman.


No, my moral code works the same way yours does Tom, I simply donít insist mine is derived from a fairytale source.

quote:
But I do worship God, God words(the holy spirit, the law).


How do you worship your god Tom? I have a friend who prays four times a day, is that enough? How many times does god say you should pray?

quote:
and will be judged by God but not by myself or others.


Whereas I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions, I also recognise that those actions are going to be judged by others and bear that in mind when making choices.

TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


38 posted 12-31-2007 04:44 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Grinch, all right, I am back.
    
quote:
No, my moral code works the same way yours does Tom,


You are too sure about me

I am the human "being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful (Rom 1:29-31)

quote:
How do you worship your god Tom? I have a friend who prays four times a day, is that enough? How many times does god say you should pray?


honor or reverence of God is part of life.
"Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, Nor standeth in the way of sinners, Nor sitteth in the seat of scoffers But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night."

See here, day and night.

and "exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day" (Hebrews 3:13)

It is the work of the heart guided by Holy Spirit. It is not measured by counting numbers.


quote:
Whereas I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions, I also recognise that those actions are going to be judged by others and bear that in mind when making choices.


So you will stop doing anything that offends others? Or you are only nice to relatives and not nice to strangers?  

I want to know where you get your moral codes if you want to tell.


[This message has been edited by TomMark (12-31-2007 06:28 PM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


39 posted 12-31-2007 09:03 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
honor or reverence of God is part of life.


Maybe itís part of your life but it has no place in mine so perhaps you should amend this inaccurate generalisation.

quote:
So you will stop doing anything that offends others?


Yes, unless doing so offends me.

quote:
Or you are only nice to relatives and not nice to strangers?


No, Iím more likely to be more forgiving when it comes to strangers.

quote:
I want to know where you get your moral codes if you want to tell.


My parents, society and life experience.

FatesWarning
Junior Member
since 12-27-2007
Posts 31


40 posted 12-31-2007 11:48 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

Stephanos,

So, what are those type of ultimate answers that you are sure of? Are they the answers that have been asked by the human race since the beginning of time?

TomMark,

What is the right way to believe in a human being's heart? Is it based upon what you believe to be a specific religion?



TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


41 posted 01-01-2008 12:40 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

FatesWarning, no. I merely ask your concept of "heart".

Have a happy new year again.
FatesWarning
Junior Member
since 12-27-2007
Posts 31


42 posted 01-01-2008 12:26 PM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

Happy New Year to all

TomMark,

What I mean is that I don't believe a Creator would expect billions upon billions of human beings to worship Him or "reach" His or Her people through one particular type of religion.
That concept doesn't make sense to me, and is what I believe to be true. When I forgive or feel empathy, sympathy, love, hate, etc... that comes from what is inside me or what makes me a human being - from both my heart and mind... otherwise simply stated as from the heart.

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


43 posted 01-01-2008 07:07 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Grinch:
quote:
So worship is different depending on he nature of god and who he is, but who is he Stephen? What is his nature exactly?

I donít mean what do you think his nature is or what some dead essayist or biblical scholar thinks God is, I donít mean what you believe heís like either, I mean what do you know beyond a reasonable doubt about your god?

How do you know how to worship a god whose nature you do not know?


He has revealed his nature in a myriad of ways, generally through the created order (ranging from the very fact that you are able to reason and have knowledge, to the beauty and complexity of nature).  There is the Bible through which the thoughts and actions of God have been mediated to us.  There is the human conscience and emotions through which something of God may be known.  There is the the Holy Spirit through which God's nature is more clearly ascertained by a believer.


But when you say, "I don't mean what you believe he's like either, I mean what you know beyond a reasonable doubt", the first thing that comes to mind is that true knowledge may be doubted.  The question of whether that doubt is reasonable is the heart of the debate.  You can always reply to someone's "know", with a "you think".  And the evidence is always filtered through one's chosen view of the world.  That doesn't mean that one view is not more reasonable than another.  It simply means that we're not unbiased, or without precommitment, for various reasons.


There are true beliefs that are empirically proven, and others which are not and yet accepted.  To ask for "proof" of God in this manner reduces him to a physical property of nature, or something like that.  No matter what history or experiential data is given, it can always be chalked up to delusion if one so wishes.  I get the feeling that when you ask me for evidence, you are asking for a simplistic test-tube answer.  But there are many things you yourself doubtless believe which cannot be proved with such a decisive test either.  


The whole subjectivity part of belief, is something that Kirkegaard explored quite well, though I can't admit to being a complete fideist as he was.  The heart, or the seat of one's will and emotions, where things like devotion and betrayal are born, is a powerful lens (either distorting or clarifying) through which to observe "objective" evidences.  The prophet Jeremiah once wrote that "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?".  Along with these kinds of sayings, is the assertion by the Apostle Paul (in the book of Romans) that all are without excuse, having recognized in some fashion the divine attributes through the Creation.  The tendency of sin, has been to try and saw off the limb we're standing on.


This kind of insight is not to be wielded with a rough hand, or unkindly, or without the understanding that there is such a thing as honest doubt.  But it does lead to the conclusion that hardened unbelief is not so honest.  As the Existentialists have demonstrated, human will may quite transcend rationality and morals.  (Have you ever read 'Notes From Underground' by Dostoevsky?)


In conclusion the Believer may always say "You're in rebellion", and the unbeliever may retort "You're in delusion".  I'm not sure that I can fix that problem, or dissolve the impasse, other than to suggest that all chosen worldviews have their dialectical tensions and cognitive dissonance to deal with.  It's just that some are more profound than others.  The question is which set of difficulties are damning, and which are merely mystifying.  The Psalms tell us that "The Fool has said in his heart there is no God".  I don't want to be a fool, and I'm sure that neither do you.  But which view of things even allows man the dignity of foolishness, versus canceling him out altogether as a beautiful accident?  


Stephen          
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


44 posted 01-01-2008 07:30 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

FW:
quote:
So, what are those type of ultimate answers that you are sure of? Are they the answers that have been asked by the human race since the beginning of time?


That there is God.  That there is an answer to injustice, sin, and suffering.  That there is immortality and a foundation for hope beyond death.  

And yes, in a sense, these are answers to the perennial questions.

quote:
What I mean is that I don't believe a Creator would expect billions upon billions of human beings to worship Him or "reach" His or Her people through one particular type of religion.  That concept doesn't make sense to me, and is what I believe to be true. When I forgive or feel empathy, sympathy, love, hate, etc... that comes from what is inside me or what makes me a human being - from both my heart and mind... otherwise simply stated as from the heart.


Would you even conceive that God would prefer humans to follow a particular way of life or thinking ... such as forgiveness over vengeance, love over hatred?  If not, these things are suggestions and preferences rather than anything universally recommendable.  But you don't come across to me as merely suggestive.  You've been speaking in the declarative mood.    


It seems like once you've cracked the door to God preferring one way of life or thought over another, you can no longer keep out the fingers of possibility for specificity in questions of religion.  And who knows where that might take you ...


Did you eat your black-eyed-peas today?  That's one of the essential doctrines of a happy traveler!    

Stephen  
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


45 posted 01-01-2008 09:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

God's favorite religion is science  
FatesWarning
Junior Member
since 12-27-2007
Posts 31


46 posted 01-02-2008 01:14 AM       View Profile for FatesWarning   Email FatesWarning   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for FatesWarning

Stephanos,

But there are many people who claim that there is a God, however they don't believe in the same one. Do you know the true One?

What answer to injustice, sin and suffering?

How do you know for certain that there is an immortality?

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


47 posted 01-02-2008 05:44 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
That doesn't mean that one view is not more reasonable than another.

But it does lead to the conclusion that hardened unbelief is not so honest.

It's just that some are more profound than others.

The Psalms tell us that "The Fool has said in his heart there is no God".


Thatís just the ďIím right youíre wrongĒ attitude that annoys non-Christians, why canít Christians just keep their religion to themselves and get on with their own lives?

I have a friend, Iíve mentioned him before, heís possibly the most devotedly religious person I know. He prays four times a day, fasts for several weeks a year and avoids consuming anything that is prohibited by his religion (heís a Muslim btw).

The only conversation weíve ever had concerning religion went something like this:

HIM: Are you a Christian?
ME: Nope, Iím an atheist
HIM: Are you happy?
ME: Yep, just fine.
HIM: Thatís good, Iím happy too.
ME: Good.

Since that point I donít think weíve ever spoken about religion.

When I speak to Christians however the conversation invariably goes something like this:

CHRISTIAN: Are you a Christian?
ME: Nope, Iím an atheist
CHRISTIAN: Are you happy?
ME: Yep, just fine.
CHRISTIAN: Thatís god, Iím happy too.
ME: God!!

Then the same old arguments start.

Iím done arguing religion Stephen, it doesnít get you anywhere apart from frustrated, Iím going back to being a happy atheist and  if being Christian makes you happy then thatís fine by me.



Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


48 posted 01-03-2008 10:58 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Grinch
quote:
Thatís just the ďIím right youíre wrongĒ attitude that annoys non-Christians, why canít Christians just keep their religion to themselves and get on with their own lives?

...

Iím done arguing religion Stephen ...

Um, Grinch, you replied to a thread entitled "Just Who is This God" which was a thread obviously initiated to discuss the Judeo-Christian concept of God.  You even entered the discussion by addressing ME, responding to something I wrote.  If you don't want to debate or discuss these questions, then why even post on such a thread?

I do enjoy our disussions.  But I'm fine with your decision not to talk about certain things.  

Peace,

Stephen  
TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


49 posted 01-03-2008 01:13 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

[This message has been edited by TomMark (01-04-2008 04:10 PM).]

 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Just Who Is This God   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors