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Philosophy 101
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Looking Back
| Philosophy 101 |
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Looking Back |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee 
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Some people say “never look back.” Some say they never want to forget where they came from. Some keep track of the milestones in order to feel they are moving forward. Philosophically, what or which principle, if any, do you find yourself applying most when it comes to hindsight? All of this came to me, today, after I broke my computer jump-drive. 5 years worth of work, *Poof.* Gone. I’m not exactly sure how I feel about it. I’m partly alright with it, because the company said they “might” be able to retrieve the info. But there’s a part of me that says, “It’s a sign. Move on, do new things, forget about it.” But maybe that’s because I feel it’s over: Broken beyond repair. When I look at it, the Scots-Irish in me wants to go play golf, with a mallet, but then I might end up having to pay for a green. They are disgustingly expensive, so that’s not practical, and I suppose that’s my point. How impractical of me to not back-up my back-up drive? anyhow, quote: I didn’t go far enough. I think I was too near-sighted, and I’ve put the jump-drive out of my sight for now. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hindsight is equivalent to 20/400 vision. Even with glasses, one can barely make things out. -- anonymous Chinese proverb which I just made up. Related question: Why does the past seem to persist when it has no "thereness" to it? Being a pre-computeroid, I used to put everything down on paper, then lose it. Condolences. Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: To me it lends credence to the idea of Eternity. Our past does have a kind of "thereness", though it is "passed". Just because we are in linear time, doesn't mean that there's not a reality that is transcendent of it; someone who sees and intimately knows the whole line or plane. The persistence of the past is simply a little "taste" of that reality injected into our everyday lives. Stephen |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Oooh-- a quasi-rational thought! Why not archive everything on a blog spot? Is that not part of Steve Job's notion that personal storage is obsolete? I ain't that compu-savvy myself, but it seems reasonable. The notion has a Colbert-like "truthiness" about it. Best, Jim  |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jim, It's all archived already. There are bigger books and blogs than the wirey electronic grid we've created here quote: I'll add another proverb: Anonymity and disclosure of authorship can't abide in the same pagoda. Stephen |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Stephen -- A good explanation from your POV. I just can't make that teleological leap with you. I'm stuck on the notion that the past and the future are illusory. Best, Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jim, Permit me a naive question. Why then does the future always show up in the present? And why does the past always have bearing upon our present? You could say it's no longer the future when it arrives, but that is playing semantics. You recognize the reality of time just like everyone else right? Stephen |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Stephen: Re: "Why then does the future always show up in the present?" I'm not sure that it does. I'm pretty sure that the present always shows up in the present. "And why does the past always have bearing upon our present?" I'm not sure that it does. As a gross example, if it did, we wouldn't make the same mistakes twice. You can construe the "we" and "mistakes" as you will. Now, that's semantics! "You could say it's no longer the future when it arrives, but that is playing semantics. You recognize the reality of time just like everyone else right?" Umm, apparently not. On the other hand, no one has ever accused me of being anti-semantic. Best, Jim [This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (07-09-2007 05:01 PM).] |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Apperception: “comprehension using past experiences: the comprehension or assimilation of something such as a new idea, in terms of previous experiences or perceptions” . |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
John: Yup. But the experience of appreception takes place in the present. Best, Jim [This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (07-09-2007 05:16 PM).] |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Three thoughts on time: 1. "Time" is a useful, practical construct in most societies, but it isn't a "given." 2. Most people readily experience "timelessnes,". It occurs when one is engaged in the here and now. Our common expression for this is "Yeesh, where did the time go?" 3. Despite the illusory nature of time, things do seem to have a drift to them. It's a conundrum. If I had all the answers, I'd set up shop in a strip-mall and grow from there. Best, Jim |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
We know that the arrow of time seems to point forward -- but, speaking of the pure physics of it -- there is no reason that it should. In other words -- from a physics standpoint -- it's perfectly logical for time to run backwards as it is forwards -- we just know that it doesn't. It may be entirely a construct of gravity, I don't remember everything I know about it at the moment. But, to Reggie's question -- It seems to me to be completely disrespectful to one's self to completely abandon our past. Not that there aren't things that should be left alone -- but, to just say "Acuna Matada" would seem to indicate that everything past was wasted. Not a healthy attitude in the long run. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Rebel! Can we not say, though, that everything past was past and not load it up with "wasted?" Best, Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: What is the future but the not-yet-occuring present? It is semantics. The fact that the present differs from one moment to the next demands your recognition of the past and future. If you can answer what happened yesterday (and if you do so in your everyday type conversations) then I'm sure what you are saying has more to do with a kind of detached philosophy than everyday life. quote: It doesn't logically follow that the past has no bearing on the future simply because someone may make the same mistake twice. After all, they may also not, out of rememberance, make the same mistake twice. I'll also point out that you're referring to the subjectivity of introspection, not the objectivity of the past determining the future. The fact that you had a wedding determines your relationship with your wife today. The fact that you were born from your parents determines who you are genetically today. You cannot separate past from present, it flows into it, deterministically. quote: Um, do you plan, or ever have regrets or nostalgia? If so, then your philosophy of time at least seems to lack pragmatic confirmation. Stephen. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
If the present was a square and then became a circle, we may remember the present when it was a square in our mind and call it "past" because it is not a square anymore, but the square didn't cease to exist, it simply became a circle and continues to exist as a circle. To say that the square is not there anymore is a mistake. For it is right there: It is now the circle! Everything is present and exists forevermore, just not always in the same shape. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
How about "make new friends, but keep the old"? |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi all, and thanks for not throwing this line of discussion out the window, and thanks, Rebel for bring this back to Regina, my country cousin! None of the notions I've put forward are unique to me. They are my simplified representations of long, long lines of not necessarily western insight. I'm not proselytizing, I'm just looking at stuff. So, having a go at comments: Rebel: "How about "make new friends, but keep the old"? Love it! Essorant: Your example is way off, but your conclusion is dead on! Stephen, my sincere and contentuous friend: quotes/response: "What is the future but the not-yet-occuring present? It is semantics." Here's another way to look at it: What is the future but the not yet to have occurred? If it hasn't occured yet, how does it exist except within the framework of your universal view, shared by many, not by all? Not semantics, fundamentally different train of thought. "The fact that the present differs from one moment to the next demands your recognition of the past and future." Not at all. The present does not differ from one moment to the next. It is always and immutably the present. (Sometimes I crack myself up at my pretentiousness. I'm not pontificating, Stephen, just postulating!) "If you can answer what happened yesterday (and if you do so in your everyday type conversations) then I'm sure what you are saying has more to do with a kind of detached philosophy than everyday life." How does this differ from the detachment of a Christian philosophy, which I truly respect? As you don't think of this as "detachment," I don't think other approaches to the present are detached, either. "It doesn't logically follow that the past has no bearing on the future simply because someone may make the same mistake twice. After all, they may also not, out of rememberance, make the same mistake twice." This is illogical, Setphen. It is the same as saying "If cows flew once, they just might fly again." "I'll also point out that you're referring to the subjectivity of introspection, not the objectivity of the past determining the future." Nope, I'm not. I'm questioning whether past and present even exist outside the now. "The fact that you had a wedding determines your relationship with your wife today." Nope, it doesn't, except for the fact that the legal act of marriage involves certain legal consequences. Does it have anything to do with the nature of our relationship beyond that? Nah. Can law determine the nature of a relationship beyond it's social confines? Maybe that's semantics... "The fact that you were born from your parents determines who you are genetically today." Dead on, though I'm not sure of what this has to do with the nature of time. "You cannot separate past from present, it flows into it, deterministically." Of course you can. The mere fact that you can make a distinction between past and present is indicative of their seperability. "Um, do you plan, or ever have regrets or nostalgia? If so, then your philosophy of time at least seems to lack pragmatic confirmation." Of course I do all of the above. The fact that almost everyone does seems to have no effect on the nature of time at all. Love y'all. Stay in the moment, Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Jim "Don't stop thinking about tommorrow" - Fleetwood Mac |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Why and how? Hopefully, since you would say that, you will now try to argue and prove it to me too. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Essorrant! I will do that, but it will have to be tommorow, as reality has intervened and I have to fix dinner. Might you in turn comment and post a witticism on your own thread in Challenge? Lately, I've had the uneasy feeling that I've been the kiss of death on these things. Very best, Jim |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Looking back huh... The only thing that comes to mind is a lady turning into a pillar of salt.  “Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.” |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Jim~ Man of my peoples-- Thanks for the condolences, and the coolio proverb. Two words: “thereness” and “truthiness.” One makes me think really hard, the other makes me laugh, because “I don’t trust books, they have no heart.” (Colbert) I wanted to marry him, but he’s already taken.  Also, the movie “Peaceful Warrior” comes to mind with the point you’re trying to make. The movie blew, but it dealt with an interesting concept of living in the moment, as part of (Olympic) strength training, though they threw in a supernatural mentor/spiritual guide/guru. That’s when it stopped working for me. The two concepts seemed oil and water, blended with a healthy dose of mushrooms and lots of six-pack abs. I’d like to read something new that really works: The philosophical with the spiritual in character and in story. Sans the mushrooms, peyote, burning bushes, Tibetan quests, etc. Something a little more homegrown with regard to an awakening. Any suggestions anyone? and I don’t mind sports relations, because I loved “The Natural,” and “The Legend of Bagger Vance.” all three deal with a past, present, and a futuristic goal/pursuit. Stephen~ Another coolio proverb. Pagoda humor looks good on you. Hmm, much to think on with “Eternity, determinism (which I don’t think I follow), regrets, nostalgia= Fleetwood Mac,” (awesome). I am hopelessly nostalgic to a very flawed degree. My writing is mostly a sentimental journey, with photographs, thousands of them which may also be gone.  John~ Great word. Doesn’t that deal mostly with “Oh, now I get it!” for an easy example? Or if you have a better one, please expand on it. Thanks. Reb~ I do accept the things I can’t change, but abandon, probably not. I’m wishful and a worker, which makes it easy for me to get Sidetracked. For the moment I’m grateful for the distraction because I don’t know if I can do anything about what’s passed. Healthy is definitely the substance I want to stick with. Thanks for the input.  Ess~ Well I used to be a square, now I’m more of an infinite symbol of re-shaping. Growth and refinement, or at least I like to call it refinement because I’m not getting any younger and the word seems variable enough to accept some edges. I like the morphing thing, it’s Butterfly-ish and beautiful with abstract spots here and there. Ed~ I know. And I’m already a saltoholic. hmmm, which garners another thought: Practical and superstitious. How can a person be both in the course of events? Whether that be from a past experience, present, or future>omen. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Regina: quote: You do follow it, literally. It simply means that past events determine what the present is like. quote: Actually it's anticipation = Fleetwood Mac, if you think about the lyrics of that song. Stephen. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Jim, Sorry, I doubt I may respond to the challenge. My wit is a dried up well these days. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Essorant: Sorry for the short shrift last night. It really was dinner "time," so to speak. On rereading your example, I think it was the tenses that threw me. "If the present was a square and then became a circle," makes more sense to me cast as: If the present is a square and then becomes a circle... I think, as your final statement confirms, you are entering the arena of change vs. transformation. It's an arena filled with lions, which only the brave or the fool-hardy enter. You're one of the brave ones! As to the ending notion that the more things change, the more they remain the same. I'm in complete agreement. Best, Jim |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. And why would a square at first sight not be perceived as a fractured circle? . |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
quote: but that sounds like laces that tighten the shoes on the future. yeah, that's a great song. One of the few McVies. Ess~ No way. You'll never be witless. John~ I don't know. Life is an oyster? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
"And why would a square at first sight not be perceived as a fractured circle?" I love that.  And about the looking back stuff? Sometimes there is a wealth of writing material there. A shrink will ask you to repeatedly look back, too. Behavioral science--but Karen won't make that speech today. I think nearly everyone has watched The Sopranos or some other such thing enough to play armchair psychologist. But using that example, I think Dr. Melfi had the right idea about Tony--referring him on to a different course of treatment that was more focused in the present and toward the future than wallowing in the muck that is everybody's past...sighing. My husband's potty training consisted of a musical potty chair that rewarded him with a song with every success. My husband, former rock star wannabe, roadie and now karoake king--y'think there's a connection? And me? I couldn't wear diapers. (I was born with allergies so severe that my own urine scalded me) So I was pretty much nekkid for the first two years of my life. Think there's a connection?  Que sera, sera. *shrug* "I'm just living on nerves and feelings, with a weak and lazy mind and comin' to people's parties fumbling deaf, dumb, and blind..." Joni Mitchell People's Parties Hear a cover of that tune here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyiNK3QJKPQ |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Regina, carrier-of-the-pragmatic-wisdom-of-our-common-lineages-and-stuff: Re" "I’d like to read something new that really works: The philosophical with the spiritual in character and in story. Sans the mushrooms, peyote, burning bushes, Tibetan quests, etc. Something a little more homegrown with regard to an awakening. Any suggestions anyone?" Sure. Stop reading for a bit. There is nothing in the (at least) twice-removed- from-the-nature-of-reality of books that lead to an "awakening." Aside fom the notion that you are already "awakened" and there is nothing to look for, there are a number of practical ways that you can experience "right here, right now" if you take it on as a conscious pursuit. 1. Try rappelling of the side of a cliff. Even (and only!) in the most controlled of environments where you intellectually "know" you are not going to go SPLAT at the bottom, trust me, you will experience the "present." 2. Sky-dive. If that don't bring it all home, I don't know what will. 3. Drive on a congested freeway. That should pretty much provide an awakening to what it means to "Pay Attention!" (That, of course, is a very common experience, just not recognized for what it is.) Or, in Stephen's epistomology, just remain open to the possibility of an epiphany along tht road to Damascus. This is long term and passive. You can speed it up. (apologies, Stephen) This may be cross threaded, but don't get excited about the nature of gurus. All the word means is "bringer of light." Guru's is everyplace, though not all of them try to make a living at. You might just find one blocking them grocery aisles. Best, Jim |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Now I just cry when someone blocks the grocery aisles.  Send lawyers, guns and hormones... |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Karen~ Ha! so that's why you're so cool. Jim~ My far away removed but genetically secured consanguine, ah where's your sense of adventure?  not much I haven't tried but skydiving, bungee jumping, & spelunking (I even detest the name s pel lunk ing.) Still trying to fly the plane before I jump out of it, don't trust bungee cords (have you ever tied something down with those?) they are not really secure, or else he wouldn't have been able to get loose, and I don't care for a pure black-out darkness, where you can't see your hand or anyone else's in front of your face. otherwise I gotta read in my spare time. I rise at 5-6am each day before the world awakes. Need brain food as well as body food, and 2 pots of coffee (dark italian blend) writers must read if even a little. yall stay awesome, I'm still a tad hopeful, reg |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Reg! I never tried bungee jumping. Jumping out of perfectly good airplanes for no particular reason works for me. |
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