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icebox
Member Elite

since 2003-05-03

Posts 4383
in the shadows

0 posted 2007-07-06 10:26 PM

Some may feel that this question belongs in the Alley Forum (or, perhaps that it has no place here at all).  I think it is more of a philosophical question than a rant.

I just finished listening to four major news broadcasts.  In all of them an anchor person, who should be assuring the continuity of the broadcast in the reporting of the news, lapsed into editorial opinion.  The theme of these opinions seemed consistent even though they were being voiced on different news shows.

That theme, though voiced in slightly different ways was that the people of the other countries on the planet hate the government and the citizens of the U.S., believe that U.S. citizens are evil and that in some vague way that the citizens of the U.S. should feel badly about this or in some way atone for this apparent trangression.

Well, I am a citizen of the U.S. and though my own personal history may be a bit checkered, I do not think I am evil.  We are not a perfect country, nor are we as a people without fault; more than that though, tonight I realized that I really do not care what "they" think of me or of my country's government.  The U.S. has enemies; if need be, we should perhaps strike first.  If people in another country do not like me or my fellow citizens, then they should show us by example how to build a better country.

If representatives of any country or of specific political or social beliefs, or of religious or economic ideologies, choose to attack my country then my country should retaliate with NO concern for the media's inflated sense of "fairness."  Rules of engagement are idiotic in real war.  These "they" of which the media speak already hate my country and me; I think it is time "they" feel the downside to that position. If people are determined to harm or my family, then I really do not care if we hurt their feelings in stopping them.

If people cross our borders illegally, then they are criminals. This is not complicated. If those criminals then break other laws while loose in this country, and if they are caught, we might consider applying the legal sanctions of their home country to them as punishment for their crimes in the U.S..  Fair? No.  Just? Yes.  I would add only that a business person who knowingly employs these criminals, if caught, should forfeit their business to the government.

None of these positions are based on liberal beliefs; I have no problem with that.

So, why is this in the Philosophy Forum?  It is because I am asking why should I even consider a different position; why should I care that people in other countries do not like the U.S. or me as one of its citizens.  There is no practical reason.  Is there a philosophical one?

Drauntz
Member Elite

since 2007-03-16

Posts 2905
Los Angeles California

1 posted 2007-07-06 10:34 PM

Sir,
"the people of the other countries on the planet hate the government and the citizens of the U.S., believe that U.S. citizens are evil and that in some vague way that the citizens of the U.S. should feel badly about this or in some way atone for this apparent trangression."

I do not believe that it is true. And there is multi-sides ignorance....if this can be a bliss, how nice!

Ron

Administrator

Member Rara Avis

since 1999-05-19

Posts 8669
Michigan, US

2 posted 2007-07-06 11:16 PM

quote:
So, why is this in the Philosophy Forum? It is because I am asking why should I even consider a different position; why should I care that people in other countries do not like the U.S. or me as one of its citizens.

Can you imagine, for a moment, those same exact sentiments being voiced four years ago by Saddam Hussein? If you can, perhaps you will find your answer. On any given day, no one is above getting his butt handed to him on a platter.

Personally, I would care less what people think of America and more about whether their thoughts are justified. In spite of being old and cynical, I'm still just naïve enough to believe that America is only as great as our ideals. When we get it right, we're strong enough to withstand the scrutiny of the world. When we go too far wrong, the strongest army in history won't be enough protection. And, frankly, I think that's exactly as it should be.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant

since 2004-10-12

Posts 6688
Waukegan

3 posted 2007-07-07 09:07 PM

.

The West has a tradition of the power of guilt
which can be exploited for good or other purposes.
This is understood around the world. It’s the
cheapest form of control of one by another.

.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant

since 1999-12-21

Posts 5767
Southern Abstentia

4 posted 2007-07-07 09:22 PM

Hmmmm...

It's not what they call you -- it's what you answer to.

Opinion does make a difference -- are the 2 billion people around the globe today under the auspices of Live Earth really anti-American? Or are they just anti-American policy? They don't seem to have a problem with Al Gore, Rock and Roll, or pop culture. I'd say there are plenty of Americans who are anti the very same things many around the world are anti.

So, I'd just say sticks and stones mate.

It aint that everybody likes you.. it's that the good people like you -- and the bad ones don't.

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

5 posted 2007-07-07 09:24 PM

quote:
That theme, though voiced in slightly different ways was that the people of the other countries on the planet hate the government and the citizens of the U.S., believe that U.S. citizens are evil and that in some vague way that the citizens of the U.S. should feel badly about this or in some way atone for this apparent trangression.

This is untrue.

quote:
Well, I am a citizen of the U.S. and though my own personal history may be a bit checkered, I do not think I am evil. We are not a perfect country, nor are we as a people without fault; more than that though, tonight I realized that I really do not care what "they" think of me or of my country's government.

Okay, I'm sure they'll do just fine without your concern.

quote:
The U.S. has enemies; if need be, we should perhaps strike first.

Perhaps we should. But should we have struck first in Iraq? It starts to get a little muddier once we start talking about specifics.

quote:
If people in another country do not like me or my fellow citizens, then they should show us by example how to build a better country.

Many countries try. Many countries succeed, many countries don't. For a variety of reasons. Not sure what you're alluding to here.

quote:
If representatives of any country or of specific political or social beliefs, or of religious or economic ideologies, choose to attack my country then my country should retaliate with NO concern for the media's inflated sense of "fairness."

I agree. But shouldn't it also be an effective attack?

quote:
Rules of engagement are idiotic in real war. These "they" of which the media speak already hate my country and me; I think it is time "they" feel the downside to that position. If people are determined to harm or my family, then I really do not care if we hurt their feelings in stopping them.

I don't think you should worry about their feelings either.

But you've confused me here. Hatred? Indifference? Neither indicates a willingness to harm your family. Why the conflation here?

quote:
If people cross our borders illegally, then they are criminals.

Okay.

quote:
This is not complicated. If those criminals then break other laws while loose in this country, and if they are caught, we might consider applying the legal sanctions of their home country to them as punishment for their crimes in the U.S.. Fair? No. Just? Yes.

Well, human rights versus American rights. Certainly, a lot to play with here.

quote:
I would add only that a business person who knowingly employs these criminals, if caught, should forfeit their business to the government.

Ha! Let's see that happen, just once. Do you really want to nationalize Black Angus or Sizzler?

quote:
None of these positions are based on liberal beliefs; I have no problem with that.

This makes no sense to me. Why should it be a problem?

Brad
Member Ascendant

since 1999-08-20

Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea

6 posted 2007-07-09 07:13 PM

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/17659.html

quote:
The U.S. has a historical advantage; America is still the land of opportunity to the whole world. The people moving there believe the American dream of social mobility," he said. "In Europe, we've historically treated our immigrants as hired help, and waited for them to finish the work they arrived for and go home."

Bob Ayers, a security and terrorism expert with London's Chatham House, a foreign-policy research center, thinks that immigrants to the U.S. actually become Americans, giving the United States a huge advantage in avoiding homegrown al Qaida terrorists. Europeans encourage immigrants to retain their native cultures, causing them to be ostracized more readily.

"The Islamic population in the United States is better assimilated into the general population, whereas here, in Germany, in France, they're very much on the outside looking in," he said. "When people get disaffected, sadly, there's not much loyalty to country in that sort of situation."

While that is just one reason, security measures, geography, as well as a few other things matter as well (read the article).

Still, one reason to look at other countries, to care about other countries is to see what they are doing wrong as much as what they are doing right.

moondogz
Member

since 2007-05-01

Posts 397
Great White North

7 posted 2007-08-20 04:03 AM

I don't think the people of the United States are any different from anyone else
on the planet...but lets face it, the U.S.
is a powerful country and thus presents a
large target. Also some of it's foreign policies aren't very popular. I live in Canada and so maybe I see things a bit differently. I think your point was that
the news media should report the facts and
allow the viewer to form their own opinions..I agree.

iliana
Member Patricius

since 2003-12-05

Posts 13434
USA

8 posted 2007-08-20 03:25 PM

I kind of think we're talking about two different things here.  There's that "hatred" against U.S. policy and then there's that "hatred" by individuals; e.g., some illegal immigrants banding together waving Mexican flags and propogating the idea of taking back "their" land.

To me this seems like two separate things.  No doubt, indigenous people like the Mexicans who were chased out of Texas and California have an ax to grind with Anglos.  And what about Native Americans?  This is different than the perception in other countries of us as a "bad" country.  It's not that they see us as a bad people....it's our leadership and foreign policies that are deplored by many.  I would say that part of it is the same right here in the U.S. -- there are many, many folks who don't like what is driving our foreign policies which appears to be capitalistic objectives in the sale of arms, and particularly when we sell to one side to wipe out another and then vice versa.

These two perceptions about the U.S. are not the only two.  There are others....some see us as a people as being guillable and nonworldly...and easy to take advantage of -- I'm speaking of us individually now.  In third-world countries, we are viewed as a nation full of very rich people and that is true when you consider the per capita income of people living in those countries -- to them, we are very, very rich -- even if we are working at McDonald's making $5.25 an hour.  One hour of work at $5.25 is more than many millions of people make in a month.  So there is envy and resentment.

Then there is the propoganda other countries are fed in the trade and economic wars that go on -- the new cold war.  Even our media does its part in this -- remember the "French fry" stuff.

So, Mr. C., this is a complex issue, with many sides to it.  The news here in the U.S. is all packaged.  It's too controlled.  Have you ever noticed how there just is very little new news on the weekends?  During times of war, it is to be expected that news is controlled.  It is appearing more and more, though, that the mainstream news is one big propoganda machine with a couple of exceptions...Lou Dobbs and Keith Obermann, the two dissenting voices (Lou Dobbs on immigration and the North American Union which we hear so, so very little about; and Keith Obermann on anything that suits him (lol) -- oh, and the "liberal" PBS news, forgot about them -- they do try to give a bigger picture on world news.

To answer your question as to whether there is a philosophical reason to care.  I think there is.  The reason why you should care is the New World Order.  The reason why you shouldn't care is the New World Order.

Anyhow.....much food for thought in your questions, Mr. C.

Ringo

Member Elite

since 2003-02-20

Posts 3684
Saluting with misty eyes

9 posted 2007-08-20 05:47 PM

quote:
I think your point was that
the news media should report the facts and
allow the viewer to form their own opinions..I agree.

Small challenge with this: What, exactly, are the "facts"? The Liberals on this country have a very specific view of the "facts", and the Conservatives have another. The liberal left media reports the "facts" of the war on terror (oh, sorry, the Dems made it a fact that this is a bumpersticker phrase, and therefore, not allowed) being lost, and the fact that there is never anything good that ever comes out of it, the administration and the fact that there is never anything good that comes out of it, the evils of America's hatred of illegal immigrants, etc.
The conservative right media reports the "facts" about the war on terror (and the "fact" that the Iraqis have better health care, better schools, more opportunites, better cooperation between the non-extreme members of the various factions), the administration (and the "fact" that the economy enjoyed record growth, minority business ownership increased at a greater pace, home ownership increased tremendously, etc), and the "fact that illegal immigrants are, in fact, criminals- sue to the fact that they broke the laws to be in this country.
The "facts" are whatever you think them to be.

quote:
I would add only that a business person who knowingly employs these criminals, if caught, should forfeit their business to the government.

That's a might 1984, eh, mate? The liberal left is already screaming about the Republicans being anti-civil liberties, and not allowing the good people of this country to promote terror in any manner they feel. Can you imagine what would happen were this the norm?

quote:
"the people of the other countries on the planet hate the government and the citizens of the U.S., believe that U.S. citizens are evil and that in some vague way that the citizens of the U.S. should feel badly about this or in some way atone for this apparent trangression."

I do not believe that it is true. And there is multi-sides ignorance....if this can be a bliss, how nice!

There are people of other countries who do, in fact, feel this way, and that Americans should be erradicated, like the bugs that we are. They call us names like "infadels" and feel that we are the "white devils", and that we need to be wiped off the face of the planet in as painful a way as possible, and that Allah will reward them in heaven for doing such a thing. No, it is not every other country; however, there are enough people thinking this way to make it not a wonderful world.

quote:
In spite of being old and cynical, I'm still just naïve enough to believe that America is only as great as our ideals.

And that is why they are all coming to America (with apologies to Neil Diamond)

What would you attempt to do...if you knew you could not fail?.
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

XOx Uriah xOX
Senior Member

since 2006-02-11

Posts 1403
Virginia

10 posted 2007-08-20 06:59 PM

"U.S."     "countries"    "planet"    "world"
"universe"   ::smiles::   Fun thoughts
Enjoy !!!!

Whether you should care...
or whether you should NOT care...
or whether you should care whether or not you care...     ::smiles::    Fun thoughts

Enjoy !!!!

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