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Passions in Poetry

"Is bliss necessarily a goal worth pursuing?"

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Ron
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50 posted 07-18-2007 09:52 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
ah...wants and needs and imbetweens

Needs are relevant to actions, Karen, only insofar as they become wants. I think surprisingly few ever do, and thus those things we most need go rarely realized. When push comes to shove, we are driven by desire, not by need.

quote:
But you know, if you want or need to define "bliss" out of your reality, it makes me sad for you ...

Thanks, Karen, but your pity sympathy is misplaced. What you call bliss is still very much a part of my reality. I simply recognize, I think, that bliss -- like its evil twin sister, suffering -- is temporal and temporary. "And this, too, shall pass" applies to pretty much everything, I suspect. Even, and maybe especially, when we don't particularly want it to.  

[This message has been edited by Ron (07-19-2007 09:39 AM).]

serenity blaze
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51 posted 07-18-2007 11:08 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well, I'm not sure where we parted ways in our line of thinking.

I somehow got the idea that you thought for bliss to be bliss had to be "fixed".

serenity blaze
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52 posted 07-18-2007 11:56 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Oh, and btw?

laughing here

I happen to be a practicing celibate, so much so, I oughtta play Carnegie Hall.

I meant no "pity", Ron. There's no doubt in my mind you could have whatever you want--but I'll re-read the thread. I somehow had the idea that your idea of bliss was a non-fluctuating state.

serenity blaze
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53 posted 07-19-2007 05:24 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

It's 4:14 my time, and I can't believe how one thought can keep me awake.

I'm appalled that you took my sympathies, however misplaced, as "pity" Ron.

I hate the stuff, m'self.

But I thought I'd sum up how I feel about "bliss" with some carefully chosen words. I know they were chosen carefully because I did not write them.

"Dream delivers us to dream, and there is no end to illusion. Life is a train of moods like a string of beads, and as we pass through them they prove to be many-colored lenses which paint the world their own hue, and each shows only what lies in its focus. […] Nature and books belong to the eyes that see them. It depends on the mood of the man whether he shall see the sunset or the fine poem. (The Portable Emerson, 269)"

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Do we choose to see the sunset or the fine poem, or do we choose to define it out of existance?

Which sort of ties into my other thread--and again I love serendipity, because as I was pondering all of this, I thought that our problem lies not in each other, but in our definitions. From the script of the animated film Waking Life:

"Creation seems to come out of imperfection. It seems to come out of a striving and a frustration. And this is where I think language came from. I mean, it came from our desire to transcend our isolation and have some sort of connection with one another. And it had to be easy when it was just simple survival. Like, you know, "water." We came up with a sound for that. Or "Saber-toothed tiger right behind you." We came up with a sound for that. But when it gets really interesting, I think, is when we use that same system of symbols to communicate all the abstract and intangible things that we’re experiencing. What is, like, frustration? Or what is anger or love? When I say "love," the sound comes out of my mouth and it hits the other person’s ear, travels through this Byzantine conduit in their brain, you know, through their memories of love or lack of love, and they register what I’m saying and they say yes, they understand. But how do I know they understand? Because words are inert. They’re just symbols. They’re dead, you know? And so much of our experience is intangible. So much of what we perceive cannot be expressed. It’s unspeakable. And yet, you know, when we communicate with one another, and we feel that we’ve connected, and we think that we’re understood, I think we have a feeling of almost spiritual communion. And that feeling might be transient, but I think it’s what we live for."

That pretty much explains why I say your bliss is none of my business--it's personal.

And, as stated above, I think I have to agree that so is frustration.

Now, g'nite Ronnie Baby. Dream sweet.

Ron
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54 posted 07-19-2007 10:18 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Well, I'm not sure where we parted ways in our line of thinking.

I somehow got the idea that you thought for bliss to be bliss had to be "fixed".

Your confusion is my fault, Karen, for not communicating better. It's difficult, though, because we have (at least) three different definitions of the word bliss competing for attention in this thread. Drauntz's definition in the originating post, in my opinion, connotes a fixed, non-fluctuating state and is what I've been arguing throughout this thread cannot exist. I think "complete happiness" is one of those oxymorons you claim to so love. Then, we also have your definition of the word. I was very careful in my last post to say, "What you call bliss is still very much a part of my reality." And then, of course, we have my own personal definition, which is closer to yours than to Drauntz's, but would probably have to go a little beyond just physical pleasure. There's certainly nothing wrong with feeling good, but to me, the word bliss has to offer more.

Regardless of the definition, however, my primary point remains the same: Bliss (or happiness) has to be a consequence of actions, not a goal that determines actions, if it is to remain healthy.

quote:
I'm appalled that you took my sympathies, however misplaced, as "pity" Ron.

I changed my earlier post. Better?

quote:
Do we choose to see the sunset or the fine poem, or do we choose to define it out of existance?

Personally, Karen, I would choose to see the sunset and fine poem without trying to turn them into superlatives. I recognize the immense pleasure of a beautiful sunset and the deep satisfaction of a fine poem, but I've never seen either a sunset or a poem that defined my life. I don't think that diminishes what they are and I certainly don't think it defines them out existence.


serenity blaze
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55 posted 07-19-2007 10:42 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Much better, thank you.

And to clear up matters further, I think that the physical sensations, such as orgasm are moments of bliss simply because they put me in that place of "non-thought".



Pain can do that too, but one would pay more for that service--it's generally listed in the adult ads as "stress relief".

Seriously. Statistics usually indicate that clients of such services are usually lawyers, doctors, judges--people who tend to need to exhibit a great deal of emotional control in a high pressure job situation. Apparently that place of "no thought" is appealing to them. (No pun intended to the judges.) One man's ceiling is another man's floor. *shrug*

And I'm smiling here, 'cause about that poem, or sunset defining you?

I don't think we can accurately define ourselves. We can certainly attempt to manage our behaviors to leave a legacy that might come close to what memory we would hope for ourselves. But we're a little too close to the subject to make the call. Besides, your life ain't over--so any attempt at definition would be incomplete.

But I think we do kinda sorta agree.

Maybe now I can sleep? That would be bliss about now. Maybe.

I have nightmares too. *laughing and wincing*

Brad
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56 posted 07-19-2007 01:20 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

What's the difference between sympathy and pity?

I know how I react to the two different words, I'm just not sure that there's much of a legitimate difference.

Anybody willing to enlighten me?
serenity blaze
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57 posted 07-19-2007 01:39 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'm still up because now I'm pondering that very question, Brad.

Pity...it just has negative connotations for me. But sympathy, is somehow more subtle, and implies a possibility of compassion.

And nope, I didn't look 'em up.

Where is Essorant, anyway?  
Ron
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58 posted 07-19-2007 04:19 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

LOL. When I noted that I had made the change to my post, I also originally commented that it changed the meaning not at all. I deleted that comment, though, because I think connotation is every bit as important (and hard to separate from) meaning. Especially for poets.


serenity blaze
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59 posted 07-19-2007 04:38 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Yay! I get to nod agreement with Ron again!

Since I'm still up anyway, I was thinking how media and cultural influences play a part in this. Tone is so very difficult to capture anyhow, but when I think of "pity" now, I think of a hostile Mr. T "Pity the fool!" or the weary observation of someone saying, "oh she's having a pity party again" ( my hearing is exceptional sometimes)but I think, that context, context, context is what I should have been paying attention to, and not the one word. (Sorry for the transference on my part there, Ron.)

"Pity" just sounds like a sneer to me, and I was appalled because I would never sneer at Ron.
Stephanos
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60 posted 07-20-2007 12:08 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Brad,

If I may offer a suggestion ...

"Pity" and "Compassion" actually differ very little as far as traditional usage, and etymology goes.  I think somewhere along the line, this legitimate word was used in an unloving way, denoting a mere negative feeling about someone's circumstances.  We've all heard people use the phrase "I pity you" in a derisive way, in a way meant to make someone else ashamed.  And thus, in many minds, it has this negative connotation attached, which may involve real sorrow at another's suffering, but carries with it a kind of despising.  


I prefer the traditional usage.


Stephen.  
serenity blaze
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61 posted 07-20-2007 10:43 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Was there something wrong with the way I said it?

Watch it boys, Karen slept! And blissfully, too! (I think it's a goal we'd all agree I should pursue regularly too!)

I'm good to go for oh, I dunno, maybe four days this time? ---------------zip

Essorant
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62 posted 07-20-2007 01:50 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Pity is a variant spelling of piety, from Latin pietas "duty, kindness; devotion". But sympathy comes from french and latin forms of the Greek συμπαθεια [sympatheia]  "a sharing together of feelings" an abstract noun formed from συμπαθες [sympathes] "having similar feelings", an adjective from συν [syn] "with, together" + παθος  [pathos] "feeling, experience, suffering".

serenity blaze
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63 posted 07-20-2007 01:52 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you very much Essorant.
 
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