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Passions in Poetry

"Is bliss necessarily a goal worth pursuing?"

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Brad
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25 posted 07-07-2007 05:03 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Most of what I was trying to get at have been covered by Ron and, of all people, D. Yet, I think it makes things clearer if we put it this way:

What is your goal?

To find bliss.

Everybody around you nods their head in a knowing way.

What is your goal?

To take drugs.

In Buddhism, one of the trickiest things is that in order to find enlightenment one must not in fact search for enlightenment.*

*I can make, I think, a strong case for this statement, but I must point out that many of my former teachers disagreed with my interpretation of Buddhist lore. They did not, however, add anything new to the discussion.
serenity blaze
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26 posted 07-07-2007 06:41 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

Yep. I might do the same--after.



Seriously, I used, granted, an extreme example of sensation to make my point.

(But hasn't anyone else's ever gone off all by itself?)

But if bliss is happiness, then it's an emotion, and you are not allowed to define my emotions. To me it is actually that simple. Hands off my bliss.

What I don't understand is why the empasis on bliss being either non existant or at best, difficult to attain. If I decide that bliss is here now--then it is.

I don't even have to rationalize that.
Drauntz
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27 posted 07-07-2007 07:08 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Agree with Dear SB.

There is an article just come out Time
"the science of Addiction" July 16, 2007

People use all kind of ways to get the sparking of the pleasant center....pursuing happiness.

and it lists internet as one of the addiction.

Does ignorance hit the button?


serenity blaze
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28 posted 07-07-2007 07:53 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

나는 이긴다!

Huan Yi
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29 posted 07-07-2007 08:58 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


wrong place
Drauntz
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30 posted 07-08-2007 12:19 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Sir Brad,

"In Buddhism, one of the trickiest things is that in order to find enlightenment one must not in fact search for enlightenment.*"

not true. not true at all. They all want to stimulate their pleasure center. by all kinds of way.

Do you know the last stage of Buddha?
Drauntz
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31 posted 07-08-2007 12:21 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Sir Huan,

What is the meaning of "wrong place"?

Essorant
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32 posted 07-08-2007 02:52 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Many a man with far less knowledge, uses his knowledge far more wisely.
serenity blaze
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33 posted 07-08-2007 03:35 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

an example?

Essorant
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34 posted 07-08-2007 10:16 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Someone that flips burgers at McDonalds and knows nothing much about science or math whatsoever, compared to someone that knows a heap about science and math, but uses his knowledge thereof to make weapons of mass destruction.  Someone that knows very little about business, but knows enough how to do a good job for minimum wage in a little shoestore at a mall, compared to someone that knows a heap about business, but uses that knowledge to be a founder or manager, and becomes a millionaire, for a Tobacco industry.  I am not saying that more knowledge makes us more likely to make bad choices, I am just saying that more knowledge doesn't necessarily make us more likely to make good ones; and that there are many with far less knowledge that make wiser and more respectable choices than many with much more knowledge.

serenity blaze
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35 posted 07-08-2007 03:36 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

And this is in reference to...?
Larry C
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36 posted 07-08-2007 06:20 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Ignorance is bliss, silly girl. Perhaps ignorance should be the goal.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane,
I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.
serenity blaze
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37 posted 07-08-2007 06:45 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*grumble*

I just thought I'd ask him what he meant, instead of assuming that I knew...

I do very much admire Essorant's precise knowledge of the English language, but I confess that for all of that precision, I'm often left confused.

(Not your fault, Ess.) I just have a habit of "huh?" And pardon me for talking about you like you're not here, although I have no way of knowing if you are here or not.

?

But anyhoo...shrug.

and a hug for m'Larry!
Essorant
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38 posted 07-08-2007 07:44 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


And this is in reference to...?


It is in defense of ignorance.

If a fellow works at McDonalds and flipping burgers doesn't know much about Math or science, even despite McDonalds not being that healthy, he still makes a far wiser choice than a man that knows very much math and science but uses that knowledge to create or use weapons of mass destruction.

Likewise, someone that works as an employee at a shoestore and doesn't know much about business except enough to do good at helping sell a pair of shoes,  He overall uses his little knowledge much wiselier than a man that knows almost everything about business, but uses that knowledge to make a Tobacco industry.

Larry C
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39 posted 07-08-2007 08:38 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Ha! I did get one right. Im gonna put that in my journal.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane,
I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

serenity blaze
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40 posted 07-08-2007 08:55 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you Ess. I do appreciate the help.

(foggy day today)

so
iliana
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41 posted 07-09-2007 04:18 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Ok, now I may be wrong, but I tend to think that bliss is attainable in a variety of ways.  Probably only the great masters know the true meaning and hold bliss inside themselves, but here are a couple of thoughts....oh, and I do believe Serenity has found at least one way!

* A baby's smile or a child sleeping;

* Listen to the sounds of Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings, just for starters.  There is so much music available that moves one to a state of bliss.  

* Laughing yourself silly.

Bliss is fleeting for most of us, but I believe it is a state one can find if one choses to allow it to penetrate their thoughts.  The problem is just that most of us don't let it sink in long enough to have long-term effects on our being.  I believe it is a choice we make to allow ourselves to feel blissful or not.  The most blissful person I ever knew was that way as she laid dying from MS.  

Yeah....easy to say, hard to do.  Yep, you're talking to a split personality here.  There's that blissful me; then again, there's that moody one, too.  When I find out how to integrate both sides of me, then perhaps, I'll have found that elusive state that we'd currently rather argue about....lol!  But, I do think that when we look at the world (and ourselves) from outside ourselves, it is much easier to find, and Ser....mutiple orgasims definitely aide in the transcendence!  *chuckling*

Bliss to all!  (I've been missing y'all.)   ....jo
rwood
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42 posted 07-09-2007 07:54 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Ignorance is good.

In certain situations.

Especially if working for the corrupt.

Makes you angry when you find out, but in a court of law, makes you innocent.
Stephanos
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43 posted 07-09-2007 03:40 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

And then there's the concept of willful ignorance, and the culpability of it.  And the concept of imposed ignorance upon others.

All ignorance is not good.  


I think it's safe to say that knowledge is better than ignorance, in a general way.  But in our present bent toward what is wrong, we can sometimes make ignorance seem better by comparison to the intricate messes we create.  It's the great things which are corrupted the most.  Like certain angels, it's the highest beings who fall the deepest.


Stephen
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44 posted 07-18-2007 10:23 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Got here late, but I can't resist- this thread is great!

Ess- what if the McDonald's worker making minimum wage (which, BTW- have you ever worked in fodd service for minimum wage? It is the farthest thing from bliss I'll ever know.) needs extra money to make rent, so he deals drugs to 14 year old kids after work? I don't know how being poor and having a crappy job lead, in any way, to bliss. Why do you assume the McDonald's worker is ignorant? Maybe the factory he used to work for just got outsourced to Mexico and now instead of making 20 bucks an hour he makes 6 bucks an hour. In fact, I find it offensive to assume that a minimum wage worker is necessarily ignorant. Maybe he knows all about math and science, but couldn't finish college because of other obligations. Maybe there are no better jobs. And maybe that person thinks that sucks.

Karen- you are too much for me. (By itself? We have to talk.)

Ron-

'Do you really want to define personal bliss as a temporary release from a discomfort that inevitably returns?'

So, anytime I'm not having an orgasm I'm uncomfortable? Wow, I wasn't aware of that. To me, that's kind of like saying anytime I'm not on a roller coaster I'm uncomfortable. Now, living about an hour from Cedar Point, I am a roller coaster fanatic. But... I don't walk around constantly needing to scratch the roller coaster itch, thinking to myself 'boy, walking sure is boring. Wish I was on a roller coaster.' I mean, to me, roller coasters (like orgasms) are a pretty good definition of bliss, because the pure physical sensation kind of pushes all other thoughts/wprries away- so, another case of 'ignorance is bliss,' I guess- but I'm not sure why you think moments of bliss cannot occur. Does bliss have to be constant to really be bliss? If we were constantly perfectly happy... I think you're right, we would be like a drugged out zombie society, with no problems, no aspirations. We would all be content to live as Ess's happy poor minimum wage workers- we wouldn't feel the need to be challenged. Oh, wait- utoppia is really a dystopia. Haven't heard that before. So moments of bliss- to me- are the ideal.

And please- what I do with my fiance (or with myself ) in my bedroom is supposed to be as damaging as sleeping around? I think you're conflating healthy urges with (arguably) unhealthy practice- I don't think masturbation is the same as a series of one-night stands.
Ron
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45 posted 07-18-2007 12:19 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
So, anytime I'm not having an orgasm I'm uncomfortable?

No, of course not, Amy. However, generally, any time you want an orgasm, it's going to be the result of discomfort. Similarly, while any time you're not eating doesn't necessarily mean you're hungry, you nonetheless (again, generally) only eat when you're hungry. Our greatest physical pleasures are ALL a release from tension.

quote:
... but I'm not sure why you think moments of bliss cannot occur. Does bliss have to be constant to really be bliss?

I'm merely accepting the defining premise of the originating poster, Amy, and going from there. If the definition of bliss is "complete happiness" or "heaven," then no, I don't think it can be fleeting. I think the connotations of bliss, as opposed to happiness, suggest more.

But, as I said earlier, it doesn't greatly matter. Even if we agree on a definition that includes only momentarily bliss, I don't believe bliss or happiness is a viable goal, but rather, a potential consequence. Remember, your actions are determined by your goals. If your goal was bliss, Amy, you could just sit on a roller coaster all day long. Or get that lobotomy I was talking about earlier. A destination doesn't determine (or eliminate) the vehicle. I honestly believe that people who chase happiness as a principal goal too often choose the easier vehicles -- like drugs, alcohol, or fleeting relationships. The people who shift their focus to the vehicle as a goal, not just a means of arriving, seem to make better choices and, ironically, are more likely to find a more lasting happiness.

quote:
And please- what I do with my fiance (or with myself) in my bedroom is supposed to be as damaging as sleeping around?

Not sure where that came from? Was it directed at me, Amy?
serenity blaze
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46 posted 07-18-2007 04:49 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

quote:
Remember, your actions are determined by your goals.


I'm gonna have to write that down. *laughing* That could be helpful if I ever figure out what the heck it is I actually need...

And amy? Just keep in mind, that when I talk, I have little to no edit function in my brain.

I'll give you a hint though: Meditative bliss.

It happened to me. It could happen to you.


Ron
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47 posted 07-18-2007 05:32 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I think it works both ways, Karen. Looking at a person's actions can often tell you what they really want. And I'm sure it would come as no great surprise to hear it's not always what they tell you they want?


serenity blaze
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48 posted 07-18-2007 06:40 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

ah...wants and needs and imbetweens...



These guys sum that up for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FqGz0z4dI0


But you know, if you want or need to define "bliss" out of your reality, it makes me sad for you, but it's none of my business.

Maybe when "want" and "need" agree, therein lies bliss. But in my own experience, it happens on its own--when I'm not thinking about it--or anythink at all.

rwood
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49 posted 07-18-2007 08:39 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

want-need bliss

or

need, want, bliss


Our mommas would have us thinking as young ladies--

his needs
make you want
to never bliss

or

you never need
to want
any bliss


but I prefer a bliss on my need want.

Just a li'l word play with the current topics.
 
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