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Passions in Poetry

Can you really change a person?

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Drauntz
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0 posted 06-30-2007 06:14 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz


I do not believe that you can change a person. But one does can develop another one's underdeveloped area. That is to say that one's job is to water the seeds to make it grow.
serenity blaze
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1 posted 06-30-2007 07:29 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Q. How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. Just one, but it has to really want to change.



A joke, but it's my answer too.

But I'll follow up with a few questions of my own--what's wrong with the person as that person is? Why is "change" necessary? Is it merely a preference to wish someone be this way or that way? And aren't we all changing anyway? Is it a presumption of superiority to judge another and attempt to change them? Is there a "standard" and if so, what is it?

What's up, Mz. D?

Maybe you could expand on this if I'm not getting your intent. I'm a bit confused.

Maybe you could change that.
Drauntz
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2 posted 06-30-2007 08:00 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

My dear lady SB, I am not changing the Bulb. I say that one dusts it.

Who said that there was dust?

what if one comes to ask why one is not bright?! one has to do the dusting, right?
Drauntz
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3 posted 06-30-2007 08:05 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

I try to say that people have always say that you can not change a person... in a friendship or in a marriage.

If one can't not be changed but can one be developed?.. to the better fit for each other?
serenity blaze
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4 posted 06-30-2007 08:51 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Wow. You dust lightbulbs?

(wince)

Don't come in my room. (Spare yourself.)

But I was wondering if you were speaking of "change" in the context of relationships, or perhaps, like, "rehabilitation".

As for relationships, people change. I think it's inevitable. The real question is whether these changes suit each other. I've ranted enough about my own bad relationship for this to amuse some members here who know me. For example, my husband pulled in the driveway just before sun-up this morning, lights out, as not to wake me, the insomniac. Ten years ago he would have had to duck flying objects as he walked in the door. Today I don't even ask where he has been. He hasn't changed in that regard, but I have. I've become apathetic on some things. (Other things still enrage me, though. ) But the opposite of love is not hate--it is apathy. I'm not saying I don't have love for the father of my children. I'm saying that my focus regarding change has switched from him to myself.

Drug rehab? It can work. But I wouldn't bet on it. Not unless that person is prepared for a minimum 90-day stay at a facility with a very good staff of professionals prepared to take an active personal interest in that person. And even after ninety days, I don't think the person should return to the same environment from whence they came. I've observed a higher success rate for court ordered rehab, wherein the addict is forced to take drug tests, seek employment, or otherwise face a jail term. (That's actually the only drug rehab I have personally seen turn out successfully.)

Then there is criminal rehabilitation.

There are a lot of nuances to that one, and I just don't know. (smile...that's still working for me.) I don't know if a sexual offender who equates molestation of children as "giving them candy" can ever be successfully introduced back into society. (I just don't have the education or understanding to answer that question.)

On the other hand, I do believe that other types of criminals can be fully rehabilitated.

But then, what I think won't dust my lightbulbs, or yours.

Maybe the idealist in me has become as dusty as my room, but I do still love the idea of redemption, so I'll leave you with an interesting tale of somebody else--a man whose religious faith dictated to him that no one was beyond redemption.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1920731,00.html

And yeah, sorry, I'm always asking you to read something, huh?
serenity blaze
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5 posted 06-30-2007 08:52 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

and tsk..if you start editing your questions, I'm gonna have to start saving the originals.

Even the questions change!

*laughing*
Drauntz
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6 posted 06-30-2007 10:18 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

I'm preparing food for the 4 legged table. I'll talk to you  later. Thank you for the article.  
Drauntz
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7 posted 07-01-2007 01:29 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

I read the article. Thank you again. Obviously, Frank Longford had a very stupid mind. He was making an experiment on God and of course he failed.

So, my dear lady SB, you want to say that some people  can not be changed? I think so too.

Drauntz
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8 posted 07-03-2007 03:04 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

My dear lady SB, I shall write more of my thought. Forgive me to use bad words in last post. I have  a very short tempered brain.

Frank Longford " believed that no one was beyond redemption - not even Myra Hindley"
which was the base of his action if there were no other purpose of either political or self-gradious. The base is wrong, on common sense and biblical. She was a murderer!! what does the Ten Commendmend say about murder. He was out of his mind do behave like that.

My moden is taking vacation now.
serenity blaze
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9 posted 07-03-2007 06:14 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Smile...

bad words?

I didn't see any.

But I brought up Frank Longford, most deliberately, because as a devout Catholic, his religion recognized (then, I don't know about now) degrees of sin.

Myra Hindley's horrific crimes qualified as a "mortal" sin.

And yet, many (if not most) Christian religions do not differentiate between sins--in fact, even thinking of sin is the same as sinning to some!

I'm kind of short on attention span and time as well Mz. D, but hopefully I'll be back with more--scriptural references as well as more on the life of Frank Longford.

(pssssst...there's a movie too--"Longford" but there is a notable bias presented there, which conveniently overlooks much about the man and his life.)

OH. And if I can inspire some assistance, I believe this question came up before in this forum--in reference to Jeffrey Dahmer, if my meager memory serves me at all.

Double OH. As in "Uh Oh"--if this thread starts going where I suspect it might, you might wanna consider starting a new thread--the other issues might muddy up the place.
Drauntz
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10 posted 07-03-2007 08:58 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

my dear SB, I will say the same thing even if I had the chance face to face with him.

Why Myra said that he was the pain in the neck?  She knew that she was guilty.

Everybody has a chance but soemone intentionally give the chance up for other pleasures. this is a fact.

have a very wonderful 4th of July, dear SB
and drive safely. love hugs and kisses!!!
serenity blaze
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11 posted 07-03-2007 09:46 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I don't drive, but thank you for your well-wishes.

I have a phobia, Mz. D. Regarding driving. It's like my fear of falling. Note I didn't say fear of heights--I'm not afraid of being high (and do I hear laughter? shush) I am afraid of falling. I'm afraid of accidents--and I don't think someone who is terrified of what might leap out in front of them would make a responsible driver. So I just...don't.

Anyhoo... Enough of my habits, implied or otherwise.

I don't know that if there is a religious system of belief that you adhere to Ms. D.

But the premise of "hate the sin, but love the sinner" is known well enough, I think, to lend some understanding to Longford's stance on Myra. I do have some questions for you though--

How many times should one forgive?

And who benefits most from forgiveness? The transgressor or those that have suffered the results of the transgressions?

Was Jeffrey Dahmer (for one example) beyond redemption when he was murdered in prison? (He'd reportedly had been "saved" before his death, via acceptance of Jesus Christ as his Savior.)

And in this concept of Christ as savior, martyred for our sins, is the need for confession and the very plea for forgiveness already reconciled by the cross?

Please know I'm not asking you questions as any attack or even personally--these are questions I ask of myself...

I'm still searching for Longford's answer regarding regret for his actions and support of Myra Hindely. I'd hoped to find a factual account, since I don't trust movie embellishment, but his answer in the film version voiced one of no regret--but gratitude to her, for in knowing her, he had the opportunity to test, in a most profound and ultimate way, a concept of his religion and faith to a degree that he might not otherwise have realized.

---

So my final question must remain--in the assumption of an ominscient, omnipotent God--perhaps atrocities committed by others exist as an experiment by said God, as opportunity for other, lesser souls such as myself to grow in understanding, via the peace of forgiving?

*shrugging*

I can't say that I know.

But it would sure make sense of the Old Testament--and through that lense of understanding, it would certainly make the new testament--actually new.



Drauntz
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12 posted 07-05-2007 04:51 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

My dear lady Sb,

"hate the sin, but love the sinner"  

……does not mean that sinner can get away from punishment. Longford  tried to get her out of jail…which is not based on his faith.

“How many times should one forgive?”

……..More than 7X70 times. But one can not get away from the punishment for his crime.

”And who benefits most from forgiveness? The transgressor or those that have suffered the results of the transgressions?”

……….You want the answer that the suffered will benefit from the forgiveness.  You see, dear SB,  God shall forgive us all if only for His own happiness, then why hell?

”Was Jeffrey Dahmer (for one example) beyond redemption when he was murdered in prison? (He'd reportedly had been "saved" before his death, via acceptance of Jesus Christ as his Savior.)”

……Upon God to judge.
God gives every body a chance because consciences is a build-in human character.

Cross ..is always there on the back of the followers.

”but gratitude to her, for in knowing her, he had the opportunity to test, in a most profound and ultimate way, a concept of his religion and faith to a degree that he might not otherwise have realized.”

………At his age? Not  late. One shall always think what he is believing.
Two month ago, I happened to  lectured a pastor of 79 and on his birthday ( I do not know that) because he was bad tempered blame someone stealing sheep….what a nonsense to attach to his preaching.

”So my final question must remain--in the assumption of an omniscient, omnipotent God--perhaps atrocities committed by others exist as an experiment by said God, as opportunity for other, lesser souls such as myself to grow in understanding, via the peace of forgiving?”

...My dear SB, allow me to say it straight forward, any of this kind of talking… atrocities ( which did not exist in the creation when God saw that it was good) were considered  as a test of God are all human being's cold blooded, stone hearted and self-righteous, idolized  religious  talking.

[This message has been edited by Drauntz (07-05-2007 07:06 PM).]

Christopher
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13 posted 07-05-2007 07:36 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

You can change a person.

Should you?

Who are you (general you, not you specifically) to judge how another person should be?
serenity blaze
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14 posted 07-05-2007 07:48 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Nodding at C, here.

That was the gist of what I tried to say in the first place--as always, you get to the point more readily and with more clarity than I.

Drauntz--it wasn't my intent to annoy you. As I said, these are questions I ask of myself. I don't have an opinion of Longford either way, btw. I have admiration though for those willing to test their faith with such determination.

M'self? Shrug. I'm trying to be more cautious regarding things I do not understand. It's been my experience that once I say I do not understand something, I am placed in a situation that requires me to stretch my thinking a bit. So...smile?

For those who know me as curious, just know that has been tempered a bit.

There really are some things I never want to know, and never wish to understand.

(Glad to see your modem didn't fry, Mz. D.)



Drauntz
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15 posted 07-05-2007 08:00 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

My dear SB, you will never annoy me. I shall thank you for your sharing your thought.

Sir Christopher,
I do not believe that a person can be changed at all...if there is no seed, one can not grow out a flower from none, right?
icebox
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16 posted 07-05-2007 08:29 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox


Discounting the affect of binding magick, one can not change other; one may choose only to change self.  

Drauntz
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17 posted 07-05-2007 08:45 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

icebox, yours is a very interesting point.
may I ask, then,

Why one wants to change oneself? and based on what one would change?
serenity blaze
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18 posted 07-05-2007 08:49 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I know your question wasn't addressed to me, but I think I can answer why, as I stated above, I switched my focus of change from my husband to myself.

Simple Unhappiness and acceptance of personal responsibility.

As I told my husband, he is just as worthy of of love and acceptance the way he is, as I am.

I'm thinking "no fault" divorce.

Surely we are both perfect for someone, just maybe not for each other--y'see?
icebox
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19 posted 07-05-2007 09:52 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox



This is dancing perilously close to the meaning of life.  Self does not choose change without need; life imposes need just as it provides the random factor of chance.  Without change, self (or soul if you prefer) can not evolve.  Obliquely, by choosing life, self chooses in each life to be in circumstances that promote and even demand change.  A single life is a tapestry woven from threads of choice; all of self is a larger tapestry, arrayed in four dimensions.  Some threads are plain, simple and make up the background.  Some threads are bold, stark, vibrant, earned through much pain, and perhaps connect one part of tapestry to another part.

"Why one wants to change oneself? " Often in a life setting, self does not want to change; there can be comfort in stagnation, but in a longer view change (evolution) is inevitable.  Often, the closer self gets to the point of change the greater is the resistence to that change.  It is the terror of passing through the fire.  

In a sense, life is a simple process of making choices and of acting upon those choices.  The individual choices are not always simple and often involve much anxiety and pain, but we exist to learn and to grow.  The motivation in life for self is that when finally we are done, we are free.


Christopher
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20 posted 07-05-2007 11:01 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

That's where I think many get it all wrong - self is not a clearly defined, unchanging item. I was thinking about saying block of stone, but, just like a person's "self," a block of stone is not unchanging.

To clearly define self would require being able to look inside and learn what that self is - it's the researcher's paradox; nothing can be studied without being changed.

To change someone, simply allow them to be. Their physicality will change, their mind will change, their habits will change. It's evolution on a daily scale. Environment, interaction, etc., all affect people and cause them to change.

But none of this is what I got out of the initial question. What I read was can you make someone change in a definitive manner from what they are into something you want them to be.

I believe one of the biggest examples of this would be changing someone in a relationship to be better suited (nodding to k's marital comments here) to "better suit" their partner; you like this, this and this about the person, but don't care so much for this.

That's the part I am asking "should you" about.

If taken from a broader sense, I would turn my answer around and say you can't help changing a person by simply being around them.
Christopher
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21 posted 07-05-2007 11:02 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Oh, and Drauntz? Your analogy of a seed is flawed. We use a fraction of our brain's ability. To suggest that the "seed" is absent in any given person is to suggest that they don't have that other 90+% of their brain.

The seed is there, it's the desire and motiviation that usually isn't.
Drauntz
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22 posted 07-06-2007 12:38 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Sir Christopher

"The seed is there, it's the desire and motivation that usually isn't"
.....I agree with you partially.

If there are seeds,  some of them may stay dormant and some of them may  grow.  Desire and motivation do make them to grow.

What do you think about the difference of personalities.  People are different. Is it because that they are genetically different or because their desires or motivations are different?

I use genetic here is to say that people are seeded(gifted) in different ways.
Drauntz
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23 posted 07-06-2007 01:03 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Sir Icebox,
"Often, the closer self gets to the point of change the greater is the resistance to that change.  It is the terror of passing through the fire." This is very true. But do you believe that one indeed changed oneself after passing through the fire?  if you have some life examples. I doubt it.  
serenity blaze
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24 posted 07-06-2007 01:48 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*smile*

 
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