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Passions in Poetry

Can you really change a person?

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serenity blaze
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25 posted 07-06-2007 03:09 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Christopher?

quote:
That's where I think many get it all wrong - self is not a clearly defined, unchanging item. I was thinking about saying block of stone, but, just like a person's "self," a block of stone is not unchanging.


and Louis Kahn said:

quote:
"Even a brick wants to be something."


*hugs*
Bob K
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26 posted 11-03-2007 03:33 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Drauntz,
        The question puts you in an uncomfortable position.  Do you want to change somebody you admire?  Love?  Usually only somebody you feel superior to, yes?  In what position does that place you, and are you comfortable there?
Jung says that entering into this sort of relationship is  dangerous; that if you  are really attempting to change somebody, then both of you are at risk.  I think he's right.
What are your thoughts?  Yours, Bob K.

      
Bob K
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27 posted 11-03-2007 03:34 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Drauntz,
        The question puts you in an uncomfortable position.  Do you want to change somebody you admire?  Love?  Usually only somebody you feel superior to, yes?  In what position does that place you, and are you comfortable there?
Jung says that entering into this sort of relationship is  dangerous; that if you  are really attempting to change somebody, then both of you are at risk.  I think he's right.
What are your thoughts?  Yours, Bob K.

      
TomMark
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28 posted 11-03-2007 06:02 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

I agree with you Bob. By the way who is Jung?

Drauntz sometimes does talk nonsense. I don't think that any human has the ability to change another one. But one can influence another, can't he?  

Tomtoo

moondogz
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29 posted 11-03-2007 04:14 PM       View Profile for moondogz   Email moondogz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moondogz

this reminds me of the "story" about the Buddist Monk, he entered a pizza parlour, ordered a pizza and handed the clerk a one hundred dollar bill....the clerk put the money in the till and turned away. The Monk inquired about his change, the clerk replied, "change must come from within."
Stephanos
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30 posted 11-03-2007 06:08 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Chris:
quote:
Who are you (general you, not you specifically) to judge how another person should be?


Are you saying that those who want to change others shouldn't be that way?  


Stephen
serenity blaze
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31 posted 11-03-2007 07:38 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

grin

Stephan? I asked the same thing of my therapist.

Essorant
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32 posted 11-04-2007 01:09 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Impossible is both not to change and not to be changed.
Bob K
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33 posted 11-04-2007 02:49 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear TomMark,
              "Jung" is Carl Gustav Jung, the Swiss  psychoanalyst, who died in '63.  You might like his autobiography,  MEMORIES, DREAMS and REFLECTIONS.  To read some of his other work requires a belief in advance that it's worth the effort; and the autobiography sometimes supplies that.  Some of us get hooked on his thinking process.  June Singer has a good book about him called THE BOUNDARIES of THE SOUL.  She writes very well indeed.  If you follow up, let me know; I'd be interested in what you think.     Yours,     Bob K.    
TomMark
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34 posted 11-04-2007 03:25 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Bob, if you have read his work then do please tell me what a great influence by his words on you. I do not like  psychoanalyst, to be honest. I view them as that I pay them to find fault with me.

I love to read biography. But I have to tell you that there are two books that I have no idea and I think that I'll never understand. one of them is "Seat of the Soul" Anything related to soul scares me. (the other book is Universe in a nutshell".

Tell me something about his thinking process, briefly...I have never heard him before.

Thank you for your kind words.

Tomtoo
TomMark
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35 posted 11-04-2007 05:02 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Bob,

I went to Amazon and read some of the reviews of his autobiogaphy.

One wrote

"Jung's dream about his patient (p. 133): In his dream, Jung looks up at his female patient who is "sitting on a kind of balustrade," "on the highest tower" of a castle "at the top of a steep hill;" he bends his head back too far to see her properly and wakes up with a crick in the back of his neck.

Jung's interpretation based on the compensation hypothesis was this: "If in the dream I had to look up at the patient in this fashion, in reality I had probably been looking down on her." So, he assumed that the dream was telling him not to look down on her. This interpretation was based on the assumption that the dream scene represented what Jung had to do in real life, which means the solution of his problem, or the compensation of the lopsidedness in his conscious attitude."

Do you believe his theory? I don't.

There was a very good discussion not long ago in this site about Ayn Rand.  you may want to start talking about Jung.

Tomtoo
rwood
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36 posted 11-04-2007 07:30 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

People assume identities all the time.

Some like to change for others to fit in or to be whatever it is they think they need to be for people. But if the other person presents a pressure for them to change, they back off or get turned off. I think it has to be on their terms.

I've had several girlfriends take on new self images that seem to mirror whoever their love interest is at the time.

If he's a cowboy: she's all the sudden totally interested in horses & begins to dress the part of a cowgirl.

Whatever he's into, she adopts it as a part of her life & identity, even if she never had an interest before.

If that's what they want, fine. I won't judge them for it, but I say: "Be yourself." but maybe they don't know who that is? And if they are happy with the nuances of this new identity/self image, cool.
Stephanos
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37 posted 11-04-2007 11:13 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Karen:
quote:
Stephan? I asked the same thing of my therapist.


The only difference is that you're wanting your therapist to help change you, evidence being that you've paid him (or her) with lifeblood.     


And if there's anything I can add to this discussion, its along those lines.  I don't think there's anything wrong with desiring others to change for the better, or even making appeals.  But the best way to see others change, is to be more concerned with changing oneself.  It's the plank in the eye.  It's not an "either/or", but a question of order.  For me it amounts to wrestling with God about my own condition of heart.  If I quit doing that, I have nothing to say or offer to others.

When it comes to change in general, such as hobbies and interests, I don't see that there's much to say.  We shouldn't want others to change those things which make this world such a wonderful and diverse place to live.  Regina made a good point about the importance of remaining true to yourself, and avoiding constant flux.  But on the flip side, aren't people who are most secure in themselves, usually open to new things ... firm like pottery, but open like a bowl?


Stephen        
moondogz
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38 posted 11-04-2007 12:25 PM       View Profile for moondogz   Email moondogz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moondogz

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

ISBN 0-670-86994-5
Essorant
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39 posted 11-04-2007 01:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think we may and do change ourselves ("ourselves" meaning "our family, friends, neighbours, etc" too) to some extent, but changing ourselves is not changing something that is good or evil.  To use an offhand analogy, it is like one's hair.  We may comb or cut our hair better or worse,  but the hair itself is neither good nor evil.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (11-04-2007 02:06 PM).]

serenity blaze
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40 posted 11-04-2007 05:10 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"Firm like pottery, open like a bowl"



I shall restrain myself.

(lawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwsy I love ya Stephan!)



Stephanos
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41 posted 11-04-2007 05:26 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

R you making fun of my similes?  

Stephen
serenity blaze
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42 posted 11-04-2007 06:15 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

No.

I am making fun of my own old age.
serenity blaze
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43 posted 11-04-2007 06:17 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I was making fun of my own state of disrepair, my sweet brother.



If I was hewn on a potter's wheel, I am one of those creations that only a mother could love.
serenity blaze
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44 posted 11-04-2007 06:18 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

ooops. One wasn't there--then it was.

ah well...a double-handled jar, then!
TomMark
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45 posted 11-04-2007 09:29 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

"firm like pottery, but open like a bowl?"

wonderful words, Stephen!

But how  do people get such character? how do I get the firmness and how do I open like a bowl?

I can be very stubborn..you will not call it firmness. I could be very soft-eared (so easy to follow other's ideas) you will not call it open, right?
Stephanos
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46 posted 11-05-2007 02:32 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Karen,

I can relate actually, at the ripe old age of 36.  You are hilarious.

I guess philosophy and physicality are only a step away from each other.  I should of anticipated that my little proverb would be taken in another creative and colorful way.        


TomMark:
quote:
how  do people get such character? how do I get the firmness and how do I open like a bowl?

I can be very stubborn..you will not call it firmness. I could be very soft-eared (so easy to follow other's ideas) you will not call it open, right?


Well, you've already identified the problem pretty well, so that's a good start.  We often confuse being open-minded with vacillating (I think of Bunyan's Character Pliable).  And we conflate being resolute with being stubborn.


My own solution (not that I've arrived) is to desire and seek Wisdom from God to know the difference.  "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom; Though it cost all you have, get understanding" (Proverbs 4:7).  The beginning of that is ponder the sayings of the wise.  I've recently begun an in depth study of the book of Proverbs, that is quite good.  I do think such words, meditated upon, can help to shape (and yes change) a human character for the better, by the grace of God.  I always add that phrase, because I think that the "fear of the Lord" is the beginning or foundation of wisdom.  Though the "wisdom" of the book of proverbs is not just another form of pietism, but the marriage of piety to the practical skills of living life here and now.


If you're interested I'll post the link to the book I'm using in my study.  It is very good ... practical as well as scholarly.  And you can get it used for fairly cheap.


http://amazon.com/gp/reader/0664245862?ie=UTF8&keywords=Lady%20Wisdom&ie=UTF8&v=s earch-inside


Change can be good.


Stephen
TomMark
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47 posted 11-05-2007 06:52 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Thank you very  much, Stephen.

You are right that I shall get that one.

Have you ever get reference of Bible from on-line sites?

Tomtoo
Christopher
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48 posted 11-05-2007 07:52 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
Are you saying that those who want to change others shouldn't be that way?  


Stephen
Missed this one!

Nope - never said "shouldn't" ... was just asking.
TomMark
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49 posted 11-06-2007 10:12 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Bob K,

I had a chat with my younger brother who read inch thick psychology book daily. He said that the whole Freud system had failed to truly identify human problems, neither solve any.

I hope that you are not offended because this a  pure philosophical talking.

How does Jung interest you?


Tomtoo
 
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