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Passions in Poetry

Of Mites and Men

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Essorant
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0 posted 06-25-2007 02:32 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


If insects had not become part of evolution, would there still be humans?  

Christopher
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1 posted 06-25-2007 05:37 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Not as we are now.

Of course, the same might be said for the insects, were humans not here.
Essorant
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2 posted 06-26-2007 12:00 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

But was the presence of man necessary for the natural origin of any insects (or other creatures)?  It doesn't seem so.  But it seems the line of lifeforms from which man comes may go all the way back to an ancesteral line of insects, so that the presence of insects was needful for the origin of man to come about.  Just some ponderings.


Drauntz
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3 posted 06-26-2007 12:46 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Essorant,

If you believe the theory then man could be evolved from any lives. So I say, if not all insects, ladybug must be there. What a beautiful creature it is.
Stephanos
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4 posted 06-26-2007 02:49 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I personally think humans came before evolution ... that evolution evolved from human thought.  (my way of saying common descent is doubtful)  But, having said that, I can take evolutionary theory at it's own word, which says that every biological form of life in the branches of the tree is dependent upon what came before it.  


So the answer, I think, is "no".

Stephen

rwood
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5 posted 06-26-2007 04:26 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Yeah, humans are not of the Acrididae family, thankfully, though we act like it sometimes, and by design we are not as resilient as the cockroach, so somehow they need us.

we co-exist in many ways that we don't even know because our bodies are perfect biospheres for many varieties.

I don't support all of evolution's theories. I'm still a kid in those respects. Like Why are there still apes if we evolved from them?  
Brad
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6 posted 06-26-2007 05:59 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Uh guys, we didn't evolve from insects.

We share a common ancestor. And that ancestor was neither insect nor chordate (animals with a spinal chord).

Same goes for chimpanzees. We didn't evolve from them, we share a common ancestor.
Essorant
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7 posted 06-26-2007 10:59 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Of course I am not suggesting humans are directly evolved from insects, but suggesting that there is an "ancesteral" link in the insect kingdom that much earlier and less devoloped stages in the chain of evolution from which man comes needed (in conjunction with other things) in order for man to come about.  Synchronically the humans probably need the presence of insects as well, just in a less obvious way.

Essorant
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8 posted 06-26-2007 11:35 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Why are there still apes if we evolved from them?  "

That is a good question.

I don't believe evolution ever needed a whole species to change in order for a new species to come about.  If one little family is a bit isolated or is in some strange or different condition, then it may undergo a change that the rest of the species doesn't.  But I believe the earth also has much more potentiality to afford more extreme changes based on weather conditions.  Back then it could afford those changes, but today it cannot, otherwise it seems there would be apes simultaneously at different stages of evolving toward "human".  Once the climate changes, the abilities of evolution change as well.  

[This message has been edited by Essorant (06-26-2007 12:11 PM).]

Edward Grim
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9 posted 06-26-2007 11:37 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

I believe in Intelligent design, so the theory that we came from apes or insects is asinine in my humble opinion.

Even Darwin said that the intricacy of the human eyeball disproves evolution.

Insects are a staple in the world, they keep the animals going, food-wise that is. Even the lowest chink in the food chain is important.

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

Essorant
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10 posted 06-26-2007 11:48 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ed

I am not arguing against the involvement of God.  I am just pondering on the evolutionary aspects.  

Edward Grim
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11 posted 06-26-2007 11:55 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Well Ess you said:

"If insects had not become part of evolution, would there still be humans?"

That suggests that you're asking if we might have come from insects.

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

Drauntz
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12 posted 06-26-2007 01:10 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Essorant


"We didn't evolve from them, we share a common ancestor"

How?
Ron
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13 posted 06-26-2007 01:32 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Even Darwin said that the intricacy of the human eyeball disproves evolution.

Would you mind providing a reference for that, Ed? I'd be very interested in learning where and in what context Darwin ever said that.
Edward Grim
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14 posted 06-26-2007 02:34 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Ron,

After I posted it, I thought I'd have problems due to the lack of a reference. I heard/read that a very long time ago; I know it's jack bubkes without a reference but what can you do?

I looked around and found the quote from Darwin I read:

"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." (Darwin 1872)

I heard though that he was maybe taken out of context, so I'll keep lookin'.

My point is that I don't believe in evolution, never will, and I know as an absolute fact that its theories are wrong. No one can change my mind. I know that animals have evolved throughout history and that our physical characteristics have evolved. It's the bit about how we came from apes that's wrong and downright laughable.

I'll try to find the rest of that quote for ya. Have a good one.

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

Edward Grim
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15 posted 06-26-2007 02:50 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Drauntz,

quote:
Essorant


"We didn't evolve from them, we share a common ancestor"

How?


First off, Ess didn't say that; Brad did.
Second, of all the animals we are related to primates the closest. Just in how their anatomy is set up and how ours is set up. They have opposable thumbs, as do we. They have a spinal cord. Their rib cages and so on and so forth.

I think Darwin saw these similarities and automatically assumed that we came from them. It's like a child who thinks the crescent moon and a banana are related because they share the same shape.  


“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”
Christopher
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16 posted 06-26-2007 03:28 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

you can argue whether or not we descended from apes, but I think it's silly to claim disbelief in evolution. At the least, look at language, then tell me evolution doesn't exist.
rwood
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17 posted 06-26-2007 03:35 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Thanks Ess.

Good explanation there, but you know I'm human and I'm impatient. I wanna see one in the actual process, like fast food evolution, or fast forward on my CD player. Not really, but it would help solidify certain theories.

I know the Galapagos Islands still have some interesting finds.

hmm...if you were an insect.

What would you be?


"When I grow up I wanna be a Stick Bug!"
Edward Grim
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18 posted 06-26-2007 03:57 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
you can argue whether or not we descended from apes, but I think it's silly to claim disbelief in evolution. At the least, look at language, then tell me evolution doesn't exist.


I believe I said that I don't believe we evolved from apes.

quote:
I know that animals have evolved throughout history and that our physical characteristics have evolved. It's the bit about how we came from apes that's wrong and downright laughable.


Of course this world has evolved. We're driving Lexuses without keys for the love of God!

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

Edward Grim
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19 posted 06-26-2007 03:59 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Reg,

"or fast forward on my CD player"

You can. Just hold down the "next" button and watch the seconds fly by. It acts as a fast forwarding. Same with "rewinding," just hold down the back button. I've been doing it for years.
rwood
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20 posted 06-26-2007 04:17 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

laugh.

Doh!

got me.

I will scurry away under the rug now
Drauntz
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since 03-16-2007
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21 posted 06-26-2007 05:44 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Edward Grim,
I see that you are pampered with intelligence.
very smart explanation. Thank you.


Brad,

don't always get yourself into trouble.
God
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22 posted 06-26-2007 07:29 PM       View Profile for God   Email God   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for God

Evolution huh? Sounds like kindergarten finger-painting to me.

Grinch
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23 posted 06-26-2007 08:01 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
If insects had not become part of evolution, would there still be humans?


It's possible but a little complicated.

The common ancestor of both wasn't an insect so you could remove the branch that became insects and leave the branch that would eventually leas to the evolution of man. However removing insects and their antecedents causes a fairly large hole in the food chain down the millennia. Life being what it is though would probably fill the hole or niche with something similar to insects, but that raises another problem.

Whatever replaces insects wouldn't necessarily be insect like, so animals which have developed to pray on insects wouldn't exist in the same form. Also some early mammals prayed on insects and as their shape and physiology was influenced by the shape and physiology of insects their decedents (including man) would have differing shapes and physiology too. In which case humans could still exist but looking a lot different than they do now.

Then there's the K-T boundary to worry about, whatever replaced insects would have to survive the mass extinction that insects survived because of their physiology if they didn't the small mammals that ultimately evolved into humans would have died out with the dinosaurs.

Of course you also have to consider the effect on plant life, without insects flowers wouldn't look the same and pollination and the propagation of fauna could mean that oxygen levels never ruse to a point where large land based animals could survive, in which case Humans would be aquatic

So my answer is yes humans would still be here if something closely resembling insects filled the niche they left behind, though they may not resemble the humans we know and love.

They might even be aquatic.  

quote:
It's the bit about how we came from apes that's wrong and downright laughable.


I agree, it's as wrong and downright laughable as the one about Chihuahuas being descended from wolves; they're like chalk and cheese, ever tried stroking a wolf? Who in their right mind believes these stories?


Edward Grim
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24 posted 06-26-2007 09:32 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
I agree, it's as wrong and downright laughable as the one about Chihuahuas being descended from wolves; they're like chalk and cheese, ever tried stroking a wolf? Who in their right mind believes these stories?


Well Mr Grinch, both being in the canine family helps a bit. Your example is just a matter of size and attitude is it not? Are there not short and tall people? Thin and fat people? Nice and snarky people? Sure.

Now apes and humans. It's a little more involved than outward appearance and demeanor. So, you can keep your dogs.

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

 
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