How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Of Mites and Men   [ Page: 1  2  3  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Of Mites and Men

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


25 posted 06-26-2007 09:54 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Now apes and humans. It's a little more involved than outward appearance and demeanor. So, you can keep your dogs.



You're right -- it's called DNA.  

But if you insist you haven't evolved from an ape --  
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


26 posted 06-26-2007 11:11 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Reb, we didn't evolve from apes. You can think however you want, but I'm just tellin' ya how it is. I guess we'll all find out sooner or later. Me later, you sooner; I'm younger than you.

Have a good one.

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


27 posted 06-26-2007 11:41 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I've already found out young Edward.

Along with the scientific community.

If it really bothers you that you share a common ancestor with baboons -- here's something to really ponder -- you share a common ancestor with ME!
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


28 posted 06-27-2007 12:07 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
I've already found out young Edward.

Along with the scientific community.


So I guess by "scientific community", you mean majority.  For while the majority believes this, (I chalk it up to the fact that naturalistic evolution has become a kind of 'orthodoxy') there is no small number of scientists who doubt it, due to the leaping inferences involved in that conclusion.

Actually if it were only from apes to man, the inferences (though still quite gazell-like) would not be quite as incredible.  It is indeed, to quote Frank Peretti "From Goo to You by way of the Zoo".


Stephen.
    
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


29 posted 06-27-2007 12:33 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Thanks for your comments.

What were the earliest lifeforms of the line that eventually led to the evolution of man?  I see that they perhaps weren't specifically "insects" but weren't they probably insect-like creatures, smaller links of a chain that would lead to something bigger and more complex?

  


Drauntz
Member Elite
since 03-16-2007
Posts 2907
Los Angeles California


30 posted 06-27-2007 12:39 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

C,H,O,N ---------> NC,AA, etc
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


31 posted 06-27-2007 12:41 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Stephanos

Don't diamonds come from coal?

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


32 posted 06-27-2007 12:48 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

For evolution to be cogent, you have to get from non-organic molecules to DNA.  So start with your non-organic molecule, and join in the highly speculative art of theorizing about abiogenesis.  Or if you want to accept a naturalistic abiogenesis as a matter of "faith" or assumption, you could skip the first 1000 chapters of the unwritten evolutionary book, and begin with something like an amoeba or a paramecium.  

Stephen  
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


33 posted 06-27-2007 12:49 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Stephanos

Don't diamonds come from coal?



Yes, and we've demonstrated it.  It's not conjectural, unlike macro-evolution.  Why do you ask?  It has little bearing on this conversation unless chipmunks come from coal.

Stephen
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


34 posted 06-27-2007 12:54 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I am just giving an example of something lovely that goes back to much coarser beginnings.  A metaphor for the Human.
Drauntz
Member Elite
since 03-16-2007
Posts 2907
Los Angeles California


35 posted 06-27-2007 01:16 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Essorant,

Will you please next time use star as "A metaphor for the Human", so we might just talk about the Big Bang or something like string, black hole and where they come from.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


36 posted 06-27-2007 01:21 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Where do the stars come from?
Drauntz
Member Elite
since 03-16-2007
Posts 2907
Los Angeles California


37 posted 06-27-2007 01:33 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Ask John. John knows everything.
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


38 posted 06-27-2007 06:32 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I've met some pond scum in my time.

a few busy bees.

some parasites.

the worst are the horse's ass. They're not even functional as a whole. ha.

the most interesting are the Dung Beetles.
at least they keep their crap to themselves.

I've been called Cat Woman several times. Meow.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


39 posted 06-27-2007 07:00 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Abiogenesis isn't part of evolution theory Stephen, any more than electical theory requires an explaination of where electrons come from.

There is no macroevolution.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


40 posted 06-27-2007 07:32 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't see how "abiogenesis" should be excluded.  Where did the evolution of the first living thing on earth come from, if not from the evolution of a nonliving thing?  Even the bible says that Adam was ultimatly shaped from the dust and that Eve was wrought from Adam's rib.  Very many, if not most creation myths acknowledge that a shaping and transition in nature of nonliving to living took place.

Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


41 posted 06-27-2007 10:24 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
If it really bothers you that you share a common ancestor with baboons -- here's something to really ponder -- you share a common ancestor with ME!


It doesn't bother me that I share a common ancestor with baboons. I already told drauntz that our anatomies have close similarities. That doesn't mean we're related to them because we're not.

And I don't mind sharing a common ancestor with you; you're a pretty smart guy. At least you don't swing through the trees... often.



Have a good one.


“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


42 posted 06-27-2007 03:43 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Actually Reb, abiogenesis IS a part of the evolutionary idea as a whole, whatever you may say.  It just happens to be a part that involves a complete scientific roadblock.  Are you suggesting that you don't believe molecules evolved into more complex molecules and then into replicating cells?  Remember that the philosophical idea of evolution, or gradualism (which dates back to the pre-Socratic philosophers) is the impetus behind all evolutionary theory and  assumption.  The most famous evolutionary thinkers had already accepted this idea well before any scientific mechanisms were proffered.    


And yes there is a distinction between micro-evolution and macro-evolution, though some would deny it.  Micro-evolution involves observable changes within the genetic limitations of a species.  Macro-evolution is attributing things like eyes, bones, organs, cellular systems, and species themselves to simple mutation, and principles of survival and reproduction.  One can reasonably be called empirical.  The other has more gap space than can reasonably lend to empiricism, especially if we are to take Darwin's own words seriously about small incremental changes which also have to be advantageous to survival.  Microevolution is scientific.  Macroevolution is Philosophic.

Stephen  

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (06-28-2007 04:02 PM).]

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


43 posted 06-27-2007 06:34 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Summer repeat time?
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001326-2.html#25

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


44 posted 06-27-2007 06:38 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Stephen,

If evolution isn't the answer what is?

rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


45 posted 06-27-2007 06:54 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

magic


we need more
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


46 posted 06-27-2007 08:39 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Grinch,

Special Creation by God.

You must remember that in the murky recesses of time, I am scientifically agnostic.  And so is everyone else.  I'm only sure that God did it, and that it didn't happen naturalistically.  I believe that we can take certain revalatory things on authority, especially when they square with how most people intuitively view themselves and the universe.  Natural revelation invites special revelation.  

The lack of a detailed alternative scientific theory doesn't help the implausibility of another.  


Regina,

We certainly need more than the idea of a magical impersonal nature which generated the complexity of life, quite on its own.  Spontaneous generation has been scientifically ruled out for quite some time.  Life begets life.
  

Stephen  
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


47 posted 06-27-2007 08:54 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Wouldn't the more altruistic approach be to sacrifice some of one's own theory to make a compromise with other peoples theories?  
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


48 posted 06-27-2007 09:02 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

With all due respect Stephen, unless you want to come up here and start walking across Lake Michigan in the summertime I'm going to have to assume that you're agnostic about God too.  Or, alternatively -- Monteagle always got in my way when I was trying to drive to Chattanooga in the winter time -- if you could slide that out of the way!  

You never did answer my question though --

True or false:

Through any two points there is exactly one line.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


49 posted 06-27-2007 09:49 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
unless you want to come up here and start walking across Lake Michigan in the summertime I'm going to have to assume that you're agnostic about God too.


You're at least right about one thing ... that it would be an assumption.  

quote:
True or false:

Through any two points there is exactly one line.


Okay.  Sure, I suppose.  But why?

Stephen
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Of Mites and Men   [ Page: 1  2  3  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors