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Passions in Poetry

how a child reads STOP sign

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Drauntz
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0 posted 06-22-2007 01:33 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

At 8:30pm, I saw a little girl about 2 years old and her mom by a little park. She wanted to play more but her mother wanted her to go home. Then the little girl led her mother to the stop sign and said "mommy, there is a sign. it says...don't go home."

Who's interest shall go first?

a child though young, found a stop sign to rational her interest of continue playing

Mother..if she wanted to go home for TV, may have many methods.

but who's interest shall be put first?
rwood
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1 posted 06-22-2007 06:53 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Ohhh…Now I get it! So that’s how people around here learn to run the stop signs and nearly kill everyone at a 4way. As long as they’re not going home, it’s okay?

To be honest: If my 2 year old child were to exhibit such smarts, I’d probably smile and compromise another 10 minutes or so at the park, just because I’d be amused by the child’s clever mind. I'd make that very clear, as well as educate the child on the fact that it says STOP so drivers won’t run over everyone.

8:30pm is bath time, then story time after that. Some of us never did put TV before children or children before a TV.
Sunshine
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2 posted 06-22-2007 08:42 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

I have to agree with Regina.  The parent is still in control, but indeed, would have to smile at the child's way of configuring how "stop" would apply in such an ingenuous manner.

Drauntz
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3 posted 06-22-2007 04:41 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

so, authority limited the free interests of  the child.

Where can we find a place where no authority exists?
Edward Grim
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4 posted 06-22-2007 05:07 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
so, authority limited the free interests of  the child.


The interests of children should be controlled because... They are children. Children need limitations and rules and punishments when they mess up. They need to fall off bikes and get yelled at and get haircuts. They need to eat the food they don't like and be limited in their playtime. Because kiddies grow up, and if they never did these things, their lives will be incomplete and abnormal.

quote:
Where can we find a place where no authority exists?


Why would you want to? There are two reasons why you need authority: to follow it and to defy it. Follow it when needed and defy it when needed. It's called the zest of life. You haven't lived 'til you've defied authority for a cause you believe to be worthy. Civil rights, anybody? Martin Luther King Jr. said, "A man who won't die for something is not fit to live."

But if you still want a place without authority, check Amsterdam.

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

serenity blaze
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5 posted 06-22-2007 10:59 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I am a mother.

I became a mother as a result of sexual intercourse--and I assure you, that was an act of "self-interest"--but perhaps not so "rational".

I am still a mother, most gratefully too, but after some consideration, my role, presently, is less that of a "mother" than it is that of a "parent".

This subtle difference is not a date I can mark on a calendar--it is more like a monochromatc painting--gradual changes that occurred that I cannot define.

As a co-parent of teens, I sometimes long for ultimate authoritarianism. But I will confide in you, Drauntz. I taught my children to look both ways even when a blinking light said "Walk."

I understand that this does not ensure their safety, but it is my job--my job--to give them all the skills I have,  hard-earned by my own mistakes and most certainly limited, as I am merely a human being, learning through trial and error.

I am a human being, and in my own belief system, I am a living symbol of order out of chaos. I've come to appreciate order and rules. I thank my lucky stars (or the god of anyone's choice) that I had a mother and father who grew to be parents as I grew from a toddler to an adult.

So I ask you, now, who taught that child to read the word "STOP"--or even to recognize the symbol and meaning? And it's not without compassion that I ask you, who failed so miserably to teach you the same?

You seem to persist in asking for black and white answers in a world full of rainbows.

I tend to find my own answers somewhere inbetween two rails, much like Rand's loco-motives. loco-motives...pun certainly intended!

*SHRUG*

Ultimately, you must find your own way. I wish you luck and yes, serenity!



(Now google the "serenity prayer"! It just might help.)

hush
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6 posted 06-22-2007 11:45 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I don't understand. Is this your entire identity- to (poorly) argue against one person's ideology? If so, you should seriously rethink your priorities.

I agree with Regina. Kids take (and say) things out of context all the time- they haven't learned to think inside the box yet. Is that a bad thing? In a lot of ways, no, but to function in society, as some people have already pointed out, it is necesary to recognize certain phrases and symbols, and to act accordingly.
serenity blaze
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7 posted 06-22-2007 11:51 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

sorry Drauntz, I am interrupting your thread to tell hush, that my doc today substituted that new drug for my gabapentin...

you are sooooooo smart, hush.

Please, don't ever hush.

(pardon me, Mz. D.)
Drauntz
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8 posted 06-23-2007 01:34 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

thank you all for the reply.

I saw the whole scene myself. I just marveled  that a kid could use a traffic sign to support her idea.

I really want know here is that why mother should let her play for some more time or why a mother wanted her to go home. Either way, it is mother's love for her. Self-interest theory denies love...or says that love is a feeling of self-satisfaction. I do not agree, that is all. my opinion.
serenity blaze
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9 posted 06-23-2007 02:57 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*smile*

I can't help but note that libraries in Los Angeles keep awfully strange hours too.



Dream Sweet, Ms. D...

and *peace*
Grinch
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10 posted 06-23-2007 09:54 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


The consensus seems to be that the parent has the right to impose rules and assert authority over the child (I certainly agree) but what of the rights of the parent to interpret the stop sign as they see fit?

Randian philosophy holds that the individual right to make choices is fundamental and no rule or authority by government or state should supersede or undermine that right.

"the only proper function of government, to assure that social rights, correspond exactly to individual rights,"

If the individuals fundemental right is to make choices based on self-interest and the governments function is to ensure that that right is upheld in a social context is the stop sign enforcable based on randian philosopy?

rwood
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11 posted 06-23-2007 10:21 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

sure, if one runs the stop sign and takes out a family, then they have to personally live with that the rest of their lives no matter what the courts decide.

and I think you have 3 choices on tickets, if caught running stop signs.

Pay by mail
Defensive driving
Contest it in court.

So the law is compromising with her a little bit

It's always your choice, just like the stop sign. What's irrational is removing it. Possibly by not stopping and becoming dead. Nothing more to decide other than funeral arrangements.

We are not silenced by laws, yet. Or I just can't think of any ways at this moment, besides contempt of court? Gag orders? those can be appealed yeah? Yall be quick to correct me!

  
Grinch
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12 posted 06-23-2007 10:58 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Rwood,

I take it then that you do not subscribe to Randian philosophy and that, as in the case of the child and its parent, the individual requires an external control or judgement of rationality regardless of what the individual perceives as rational self-interest.

Or am I simply misinterpreting the quote and being irrational.
Edward Grim
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13 posted 06-23-2007 11:44 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
Randian philosophy holds that the individual right to make choices is fundamental and no rule or authority by government or state should supersede or undermine that right.

"the only proper function of government, to assure that social rights, correspond exactly to individual rights,"

If the individuals fundemental right is to make choices based on self-interest and the governments function is to ensure that that right is upheld in a social context is the stop sign enforcable based on randian philosopy?


quote:
I take it then that you do not subscribe to Randian philosophy and that, as in the case of the child and its parent, the individual requires an external control or judgement of rationality regardless of what the individual perceives as rational self-interest.


I was wondering, and please forgive me if I'm being rude (that's not my intention), but what does it matter? I've been peeking at the Atlas Shrugged thread which I was going to partake in (because the original question was directed towards the "sacredness" of books to films) but I decided not to because the topic soon changed and had nothing to do with me. Fine by me. But I've been reading some of it and I can't help but question the purpose of all that's being discussed, about self-interest and what not. I just fail to see what the point is. Perhaps I'm dim.

And Grinch:

quote:
Randian philosophy holds that the individual right to make choices is fundamental and no rule or authority by government or state should supersede or undermine that right.


What about the extermination of another's life? What if an individual makes the choice to kill someone? Or do you mean "right" as in the fundamental (and legal) rights that have already been granted to supposedly every individual?

Her philosophy sounds very liberal from what I've read here.

“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

Drauntz
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14 posted 06-23-2007 12:28 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Grinch

"Randian philosophy holds that the individual right to make choices is fundamental and no rule or authority by government or state should supersede or undermine that right."

What is the definition of her "individual right"?
Every school has a list of items under individual right, what are hers?

If her "individual right" means "that is what I want" or "that is what I rationally want" then tell me where her right can be exercised?
rwood
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15 posted 06-23-2007 02:38 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

just woke up*

took a cat nap, and I *think* I answered your question Grinch. Unless I'm just not able to understand it or my answer?

and no I don't subscribe to the all of Rand's philosophy.

I try to be objective and rational with most things....I try to stick to the facts. I got lucky. I was raised that way. Except Grandmomma forced me go to a Baptist church when I stayed with her for many years.

spiritualism is purely private and subjective to me.

(Yawn)

got kids Grinch? Now they will wake up your every sense you ever thought you had.

Look up your laws sometime in your city in its beginnings. You'll see how ridiculous some were or still are and just aren't ticketed anymore, but they could be. Rand wasn't all off.


Ed~ I dunno either. People are trying to prove whether thinking for self about self is okay for self and all, or if one must be self-sacrificial, i think. Altruistic.

choices.

they are so grand.


Grinch
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16 posted 06-23-2007 05:47 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I was wondering, and please forgive me if I'm being rude (that's not my intention), but what does it matter?


Asking a question can never be rude, only the manner in which the question is asked and in that regard yours seems to be totally acceptable.

What does it matter?

Michael (Balladeer) put forward a similar question when he asked "So what" in the Atlas thread. I wrote a reply but decided that the thread may have veered too far from the original intent and so didn't post it. This thread however and your post in particular seems a good opportunity to explain the relevance.

Almost all Philosophical thought and debate can, due to its very nature, be seen as a waste of time because in most cases the subject always remains in the realm of philosophy and have no influence in the real world. The questions "so what" and "what does it matter" are reasonable in such cases.

Occasionally however certain philosophical ideas can be taken beyond the realms of philosophy and applied in the real world, at that point they start to acquire names like ideology and doctrine or are put into practice in political systems such as Capitalism and Communism. Objectivism is one of those philosophical ideas and as such it really does matter that people debate and discuss its validity because its application in the real world could affect us all directly.

quote:
I just fail to see what the point is. Perhaps I'm dim.


I doubt that but to answer your question there is a point, a lot less grand than the one I gave above granted but clearly connected to it, we argue and debate because we are free and able to and enjoy exercising our right and brain doing so. The point is to expand our experience and knowledge for future use - a concept Rand would have encouraged.

quote:
What about the extermination of another's life?


Randian philosophy attaches a caveat that in seeking your own self-interest you should consider the self-interest of others although the taking of life is not expressly denounced. For instance Rand spoke against both world wars and the Vietnam war but wasn't a pacifist, she recognised war under certain circumstances as being legitimate and necessary.


Drauntz,

quote:
What is the definition of her "individual right"?


You'd be better asking someone who prescribes to her philosophy but my understanding is that Rand promoted the rights of the individual above that of the collective and that those rights should not be undermined by the sate. As to the specifics of those rights Rand professes few directly apart from the right to make choices based on rational self-interest that enhanced the individuals life. In essence the right to pursue individual happiness.

quote:
If her "individual right" means "that is what I want" or "that is what I rationally want" then tell me where her right can be exercised?


Rands philosophy, as it pertains to the ethics of choices driven by self-interest  can be exercised anywhere and everywhere; in fact it is every minute of everyday which is why it's so popular.

Rwood

quote:
and no I don't subscribe to the all of Rand's philosophy.


Nor do I, but I openly admit that there are some good bits.

Drauntz
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17 posted 06-23-2007 08:06 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz


Grinch,

I shall move this to SB's thread

yours is the fourth definition of Rand's self-interest's "philosophy".

others, Sir Balladeer's, Ron's, Brad's.

"Rands philosophy, as it pertains to the ethics of choices driven by self-interest"

What is "ethics of Choices" in your thought?
Grinch
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18 posted 06-23-2007 08:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


The options where an ethical value can be assigned to the result
Drauntz
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19 posted 06-23-2007 09:13 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Grinch,

then I ask you, where do you think that "ethical value" comes from? and what is the motivation we judge ourself by it?

(if it is from outside..means other's rule or public rules---still other's, then this will be contradict from the concept of "self-interest".)

If it is from within? then how?

Brad
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20 posted 06-23-2007 09:14 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

They are all facets of the same thing.

Long term, short term interest is simply another way of saying that no man is an island. We do not live in world without consequences.

Respect for others in that they have the same right to pursue their self interest as I do is based on the ethical principle that I must allow others the same rights that I demand. To think otherwise is neither ethical nor a recognition that choices have consequences.

The ethical base for a choice driven by self interest necessarily employs an understanding of consequences, a respect for others (to do the same as I), and an understanding that we are not automatons, it is an implicit statement of free will. Furthermore, it is an acceptance of the responsibility of that choice. I can't blame others if I choose to help them because it is still my choice.
Drauntz
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21 posted 06-23-2007 09:20 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Sir Brad

"Long term, short term interest is simply another way of saying that no man is an island"

the best definition so far for "self-interest".
I love this.
Drauntz
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22 posted 06-23-2007 09:46 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Sir Brad,

"Respect for others in that they have the same right to pursue their self interest as I do is based on the ethical principle that I must allow others the same rights that I demand."

You require other to have the "same right" to pursue the interest. what if your self-interest and his self interest conflict? as two Rands and one man bridge, who is going to cross first? this is every day reality.

Does Round Table or United Nations limited any fights of between "self-interest"s? how you apply Rand's thinking here?
Brad
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23 posted 06-23-2007 09:47 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

An ethical value comes from reciprocity.

What makes this idea really interesting is that cultures around the world seem to abide by it albeit in many different ways.
Brad
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24 posted 06-23-2007 10:01 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
You require other to have the "same right" to pursue the interest. what if your self-interest and his self interest conflict? as two Rands and one man bridge, who is going to cross first? this is every day reality.


No, it's not. Everyday reality is a lot more complex than that. But, all else being equal, the answer to your question is that they fight.

If the choice and action were based on selflessness, neither would cross the bridge,  both would die, and your problem would be solved.

 
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