”The question of self-interest is important, if human beings make decisions solely based on it, and I believe they do.”
….No they don’t. How do you know they don’t? Better yet, how can you, altruistically, argue against what another man believes? It’s not in his best interest for you to do so nor are you sacrificing anything toward the survival of his beliefs.
“it offers the possibility to influence those decisions. That's where the big issue of Rational self-interest as proposed by Rand comes in, the inclusion of Rational suggests that the way forward is to encourage and teach rational thinking to guide self-interest in the direction of group-interest.”
…..Group interest is not self-interest. It is only part of it.But you just said humans don’t make any decisions based on self-interest, so Which part could you possibly be talking about?
”A man decides to steal a car, radian philosophy would maintain that the man had made an irrational choice based on self-interest and that if he could be taught to apply rational thought his decision would be different.”
….Why ‘irrational” ? human are the same. We are? That’s odd. You can’t get an irrational form other “irrational”. I think you’re confusing “nothing can come from nothing,”
but irrationality is something and as you’ve proven it can go about anywhere across the gamut of fact or conjecture and imagination.
They are all irrational, if you say. Which is it? They are all irrational? Or only if Grinch says they are? All the ideas are? Is IF the deciding factor? Confused? Me too.
”A man decides to steal a car, my belief is that if the man's decision already seems rational to him and the only way to affect his decision is to change the balance of pain and pleasure his self-interest is basing the decision on.”
…..why do you have such a belief?
…..If for instance the man steal the car and the owner happily claimed insurance to get a new car. Both self-interests were granted. Then why wrong? Now you are arguing FOR self-interest? Because of the moral and the law and the rules? If rational is based on those law, rules and morals then it is not a pure self-interest. So if you remove all laws, rules, and morals, then you’ll have a rationally pure self-interested world? And all it takes is insurance?
”It's difficult for people to accept that self-interest can motivate positive or 'good' results such as your fire-fighter example.”
…..Not true. What’s false about that statement?
“Self-interest allows people to do good things in fact it absolutely compels them to the point where that in some cases they couldn't do anything other than good.”
…..What is good thing? Teachers. By self-interesters? Teachers are usually interested in learning everything they can so they can teach, encourage, inspire. Without taking a true self-interest in their curriculum and believing it to be important and worthy of teaching, I doubt the low wages, punk kids, restricted materials & environment, or bullying parents would be too much of a draw.
“your firefighter story”.
…..Why not try one day of firefighter to experience their job and thought.
First, it is their job.
Second. It is their training.
Third. Their heart and love.
You may want to talk about B first instead A. the fire shall extinguished itself when those firefighters sort out their rational –self-interest.
The above is just quibble and bits for your dead horse over in the other thread.
You won’t even read a book before you engage in a debate. So why should someone trust your comprehension of a firefighter story?
“We can deduce that that choice isn't based on a universal moral code, otherwise everybody would choose to be a hero.”
Wrong. Self-interesters consider that hero is a negative term. Did you really research that statement, or did you just throw that in there for giggles.
“We can deduce that as one of the fundamental imperatives of life is to survive, which is solely based on self-interest”
…wrong. To survive is a build in fact. It needs self-interest and also it needs other things. It? Like “It puts the lotion in the basket?” You mean people? Okay we’re back to people who now need to possess elements of self-interest in order to survive. No wait. Survival is built in, like a wet-bar, with all kinds of concoctions besides just self-interest. What if the person quits drinking? He/She has no lust or taste for survival anymore. He/she decides they have no interest at all in self or others and jumps off a bridge. Are you saying people do this because their wet-bar is not stocked properly with equal amounts of self- and whatever other magical potion you keep speaking about but never quite reveal? Is the secret ingredient other people? I’ll agree that suicide seems to be a very selfish thing, but I don’t know, I’ve not tried it. Though other people have tried to run me off the bridge. Thankfully, I was more interested in myself than pleasing them.
“some reason must exist that is greater than the need to survive.”
If you can name them…
Freedom Many have died so the bigger need could be experienced by all.
“We can also deduce that that reason must be based on the same scale of measurement - self-interest.”
…..Which self-interest is greater than the need of survive?
Why survive? If it’s all about the world without you in it. If one’s not allowed to think for self, about self or do for self, then eventually Earth will be a planet of sheep.
And then you come back to Grinch with this:
People do not make decisions solely based on self-interest, esp, as group. In teamwork people make sacrifices. Mostly because they know it’s in their own best interest to do so. But above you speak clearly of needing self-interest to survive, along with other “things”. Balance? Is that your platform? I’m not sure since you spout so much disdain for “self-interesters” in one sentence then embrace them in another. That’s a bit Fickle isn’t it?
If you believe that individual self-interest is as same as group interest then all Rand's believers shall go to Iraq immediately to fight for the group interest of American which is your country too.
America. America. Get it right. You’re living in America now, am I correct? American is not a country. Americans don’t need you to tell us it’s our country “too.” That is just so…..redundant.
So are you going to host the deployment party? Since you’re basically saying you’re not an American and you’re not a believer in Rand, which both are perfectly okay, but I expect you to be gracious and kind, lots of sausage balls, fruit punch, chocolate dipped strawberries, you know the good stuff, because that would be altruistic and courteous to a people who are standing up for what they believe in and they’ll be leaving you to question stop signs.
Really Drauntz, You’re growing on me. Bless your heart.