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Local Rebel
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0 posted 2007-06-20 05:53 PM


While I have command of my faculties;

Teaching a man to fish may be a great survival skill if you're marooned on a desert island -- but we live in a complex economic system.

Given the fish analogy -- knowing how to fish is of little value comparatively and competitively because if the man doesn't have a boat, winch, net, fuel, liscence, and a means to deliver his fish to the marketplace -- he has little recourse but to fish all day long on someone else's boat, catch a lot of fish, and get paid in return a very small portion that is decided largely by the owner of the boat.  Most of the time this will be an amount that would make obtaining a boat at some point an unattainable goal.

Moreover -- the owner may or may not be a participant in the fishing process -- but takes a large cut for his 'rent'.  

That is a perfectly acceptable model -- but the axiom doesn't take into account the factors that there are more would-be fishermen than there are boats, or fish, or market -- nor does it consider that the owner will get to pass his boat on to his heirs -- who will have never done anything to earn it.

The West was won on African slave labor, indentured servants, migrant workers, and Chinese rail and mine workers.

Wealth concentrates.

And then there's Marx and T.R.

The age of Adams was long past discredited by the time Rand wrote 'Atlas'.  But wasn't it a brilliant design that she would write it to appeal to the boat owners -- right down to her ideal of femininity?

© Copyright 2007 Local Rebel - All Rights Reserved
Balladeer
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1 posted 2007-06-20 06:18 PM


Well, the actual phrase is "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish  and you feed him for a lifetime.", or something like that. The object is appeasing someone's hunger, not providing them with a means of livelihood.

As far as the extras you have thrown into the mix, come to Venezuela with me and let's fish. There the fishermen use long strands of fishing lines, a hook and a glove on their hand. They twirl the line over their heads like a lariat, let it fly and then let the tide carry it out. When there is a tug on the line, they pull it in, wrapping the line around their gloved hand. No poles, no boat, winch, net, fuel or nets needed. (This, of course, doesn't apply to those fishermen who need a $20,000.00 boat, $500.00 fishing jacket, pants, boots and cap, and thousands of dollars in fishing gear)

It's curious how we can set up our own barricades to excuse our NOT being able to do something instead of just doing it.



oceanvu2
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2 posted 2007-06-20 07:09 PM


Local Rebel:  I am glad you still have command of your faculties.  When I was in school, the faculties pretty much had command of me.

As the grandson, on both sides, of Scots indentured servant girls who each worked seven years to pay their passage, and the grandson on both sides of Scots ship-jumpers, I don't know that they won the West.  On the other hand, they all learned how to fish the hard way.

Best, Jim

rwood
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3 posted 2007-06-20 07:33 PM


Hey, don't knock those of us who have a lot of fun with a cane pole, some string with a hook, a cork, and some night crawlers. Yes, I bait my own hook, and yes, the cork comes from a nice bottle of Zin.


It seems to me that the boats were the same for men and women in Atlas, where usually men got the big boats, and women were only a factor if it sank.

Dagny Taggert was a powerful woman who had her own ship of dreams.


BTW Jim, We're probably related.

Local Rebel
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4 posted 2007-06-20 08:47 PM


So, Mike.  The reason you haven't beaten Tiger Woods is what?

reg;

quote:

While her books championed men and women as intellectual equals (for example, Dagny Taggart, the protagonist of Atlas Shrugged was a hands-on railroad executive), she thought that the differences in the physiology of men and women led to fundamental psychological differences that were the source of gender roles. Rand denied endorsing any kind of power difference between men and women, stating that metaphysical dominance in sexual relations refers to the man's role as the prime mover in sex and the necessity of male arousal for sex to occur.[45] According to Rand, "For a woman qua woman, the essence of femininity is hero-worship – the desire to look up to man." (1968)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand#Gender.2C_sex.2C_and_race



Jim -- how could it have been done without them???

Ron
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5 posted 2007-06-20 09:34 PM


Yep. Capitalism sucks, Reb.

Then again, we both know that everything else sucks more.

Of course, the metaphor you're referencing probably shouldn't be taken too literally. We don't really need fishermen so much as we need people who know how to make a living. You know, as opposed to people who expect others to support them? The adage, I'm sure, was written in a time when most people could still be self-sufficient and live off the land. Or the river, I guess. Perhaps, in today's world, we could come up with something a bit more appropriate?

"You can give a man a burger and feed him for a day, or you can teach him that flipping burgers isn't beneath his dignity and feed him for a lifetime."



Local Rebel
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6 posted 2007-06-20 09:50 PM


Yep, and if he's eating burgers he won't have to worry about living too long at that.  

The Libertine Capitalism that Rand aspired to did suck.  Without a central banking system there was chaos.  Without anti-trust and inheritance taxing, capital concentrated into the hands of the robber-barons.  Adam's (and Rand's) natural aristocracy eventually destroyed even themselves.

If everyone got to start with the same capital, the same opportunity, the same talent, the same intellectual capacity,  and got to collect 200 bucks for passing go that would be one thing.  But you can't even buy Oriental Avenue flipping burgers.

Mike complains about the way Bill Gates gets treated -- maybe he's forgotten that Bill Gates was an intellectual moocher.  (Ask Steve Jobs for his opinion).  Yet Rand would have it that only the government picks the pockets of the 'minds'.

and, I think my mind just ran out..


Ron
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7 posted 2007-06-20 10:47 PM


quote:
But you can't even buy Oriental Avenue flipping burgers.

Yea? I'm guessing you never read my well hidden bio posted on the main site, Reb?

My first job out of the Marines (actually, I started while still stationed locally) was flipping burgers, Reb. I had a wife, a daughter, and another on the way. Flipping burgers got me through college. And a third kid. After graduating, I managed another small handful of restaurants and restaurant chains for some few years, until 1981 when I returned to the classroom to learn a bit about this new fangled thing called computers. No more burgers for this kid!

I didn't buy Oriental Avenue, of course, but I think I did okay. In my opinion, success doesn't depend on how much you make every week, but rather on how much you KEEP each week. If you have to make a living flipping burgers for a while (a long while in my case), you just have to be willing to live like someone flipping burgers. That's the hard part for most folk, I think.

Oh, and of course, Gates was an intellectual moocher. Then again, so was Steve Jobs (ask the people at Xerox for their opinions). Ideas, even really good ideas, are a dime a dozen. The real results are in the execution.



Local Rebel
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8 posted 2007-06-20 11:42 PM


Well I'll try to do this with half-a-brain (which is probably giving myself more credit than I deserved when it was actually working).

Yep -- I never read your well-hidden, well-writen bio -- but I certainly enjoyed it!  That's a great story Ron.

And your Veterans benefits enabled your rise from lowly burger flipping.

Let's say someone doesn't have Veterans benefits (and not everyone can-- and under current circumstances I think it may be understandable why someone might not want to pursue that path) -- then -- they will need access to job specific training through other means -- or remain a burger flipper.  

In the current business climate -- I think you'd agree there is not the opportunity to begin a software company that there was in the eighties.  And, there aren't that many kinds of businesses that can succeed with talent and sweat of brow alone my friend.

On the other hand -- if the burger flipper is willing to flip burgers -- why should he have to live in the back of a 20-year-old station wagon (an actual burger flipper I know).  Isn't the veil of ignorance the more rational self-interest?

And --I agree execution is important - but a well capitalized venture with a mediocre idea beats an under-funded great idea any day -- if Jobs hadn't found an $80k angel early on -- it's difficult to say what turn your career might have taken.

When Gates meets his expiration date -- there is no reason that his fortune -- made possible by the burger flippers and floor sweepers -- should remain soley in the hands of those who did not earn it.

Rand's appeal to reason is only sound if everyone's paradigms of truth and intellectual capacity are equal -- and her conclusions are suitably tailored to appeal to her benefactors -- and let's not forget -- her heroine inherited!  

It's the gabapentin... I swear!


rwood
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9 posted 2007-06-21 05:10 AM


Yep, she's allowed to have her views. I never said I admire her every thought, and she has flaws as everyone does.

I may not be completely into hero-worship, but I look up to my Dad and my Granddaddy. I'm honored to have men like them to look up to. But there's some great ladies in my bloodline that helped keep them in line too. They all taught me how to be myself and to go out and get what I wanted in life. Don't depend on others for it.

In fact, I didn't just go for the boats, I went for the trains, planes, surfboards, motorcycles, race cars, and my first car? 49 Ford. When everyone else was driving 80's models.

The only problem I have is finding a Fish who can keep up with me.

Balladeer
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10 posted 2007-06-21 09:36 AM


Actually, reb, you have no idea how many letters I have written to Tiger Woods challenging him to a match. Has he responded? Not once! Go figure...

Truth is that I can enjoy my golf tremendously without having the ability to beat Woods. The "If you ain't number one, you ain't nothing" philosophy is ridiculous. You can only hope to be the best your own capabilities allow. A kid went up to  Cassius Clay (at the time) and said, "If I was as big s you, I'd be heavyweight champion, too", to which Clay replied, "So what's stopping you from being the lightweight champion?" Or, in  a phrase which may be more to your liking, "If you can't be a tree then be a Bush."

John Galt inherited wealth? Reardon? That fellow architect in the other book? Gates?


rwood
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11 posted 2007-06-21 10:23 AM


laugh~

"If you can't be a tree then be a Bush."

I'd rather be a briar patch.

or Poison Ivy

I think I'm a weed.


Drauntz
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12 posted 2007-06-21 03:29 PM


Dear Sir Balladeer,

"Actually, reb, you have no idea how many letters I have written to Tiger Woods challenging him to a match. Has he responded? Not once! Go figure..."

...you need to change your name first. A match between a Tiger and a Deer? be rational!!!!

Balladeer
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13 posted 2007-06-21 05:32 PM


No worries, Drauntz. I was only lion
serenity blaze
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14 posted 2007-06-21 05:49 PM


Just popping in here to groan.


Local Rebel
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15 posted 2007-06-21 08:12 PM


quote:

You can only hope to be the best your own capabilities allow.



I doubt, considering his intellect and ability and work ethic, that the reason that Ron didn't make it in the Photography business or as commercial artist was because he sucked or because Olan Mills was better.  In fact -- I'll bet he furnished his clients with a much better product than Olan Mills ever aspired to.

I also seriously doubt, that you don't want to have more money than Bill Gates -- or win the Masters.

If you reach for the stars eh?  

And Who is John Galt?

Who took John Galt's dream away?  Do CEO's really decide to share with everybody in the company equally?  Every corporation I worked for as an engineer made me sign an agreement as a condition of employment that anything I invented (aka designed) was property of the company?  Why?  Because that's what they were paying me to do -- and thier investment in the tools and facilities for the reasearch involved were expected to bring proprietary technologies.  The sale of which would yeild a profit for the shareholders.  

The real Galts -- men like Tucker, Hughes -- sure they had their pockets picked by the government -- by men who were installed into government positions to represent thier competitor's interests -- not 'the people'.

Shall we have a conversation about K Street?

And, without the sacrifice of Francisco's entire life and fortune -- there is no John Galt -- it seems, he lived his life for another man.  The true irony?

Rand laughed.

rwood
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16 posted 2007-06-23 08:05 PM


Hmm..interesting. Loved the bio on Tucker, the car and there was a movie, but yeah, hate the way they were shook down so to speak.

Do you think Howard Hughes overcame that or  earned things a bit differently?

the Galts of the world...

Ever been to the Biltmore Estate in Asheville NC?

Wow. Not all Galts are from the same cloth, hear tell Mr. Vanderbilt basically went cuckoo in the end and hated the place? So as far as inheriting, he nearly ended it with himself.

But, what a legacy and piece of architectural art he left behind. I've been there several times.

sighs...I have an appreciation for the Gilded Age, because there was still some sense of celebration in refinement. Now there seems to be many gaudy attempts at it.  

i'll just remain humble and plain so I don't mistake it all.


Local Rebel
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17 posted 2007-06-23 08:50 PM


I don't know Regina... Tucker and Hughes both lived by the sword, so to speak, equiping the U.S. Military with materiel for WWII.  

Myself -- I loved the STYLE of the 30's, 40's and 50's -- but, I couldn't have stood the society.

Colored only/White only.  The signs were still up when I was a kid and my school didn't get desegregated until I was in third grade or so.

It kind of makes the plights of rich white men, um, pale  -- in comparison.

rwood
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18 posted 2007-06-23 09:34 PM


so true. I think those times in our American history are most sad and shameful.

I just wondered about Hughes since he wasn't well accepted within the social circles of his own interests. I also wonder if that makes a difference when money is of no object, because we all assume that money buys everything, even acceptance. (that is if one could overlook his peculiarities)


Fish school.


Balladeer
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19 posted 2007-06-23 11:33 PM


also seriously doubt, that you don't want to have more money than Bill Gates -- or win the Masters
Then your doubts are in grave error, reb. I've never given a thought to having more money than Bill Gates. The Masters? Sure, in a daydream I would like to win one but I have never even considered putting in the time and effort to be good enough to make it a reality. Tiger did. Why would you think I would seriously want either of those things? Because that's what people are supposed to want? Believe me, many don't. I'm perfectly content to have what I have but then I've never professed to be a Rand character.

Reach for the stars? Anyone can dream of it. How many dedicate their lives to it, study for it, work towards it, get the education necessary for it? Reaching takes more than sticking your hand up in the air trying to grab something.

Who said Ron wasn't a success? If he put everything he had into it, who would you or I be to say he wasn't successful? Is the bottom line on the bank statement the only measure of success? When Rand's character was asked that, if there were an afterlife, what would she want her peers to say to her upon her arrival, she answered, "I would like for them to say 'well done'."

who took John Galt's dream away? No one....

Local Rebel
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20 posted 2007-06-24 12:08 PM


Hughes could have received top medical care now Regina for his OCD -- but I don't know if Trump would be a fitting analog or not -- Trump doesn't aspire to anything except opulence and more of it like our scandal ridden CEO's:

quote:

The hit parade of corporate scandal isn't about money. It's about boredom. It's not about wealth. It's about loneliness. It's not about power. It's about insecurity.
And it's not about greed. It's about unrealistic fantasy.

So say top corporate psychologists, management experts and CEOs asked by USA TODAY to answer the simple question: Why? What motivates wealthy CEOs to steal from their companies? When you're already a multimillionaire, why do you need more?

Take Dennis Kozlowski, former CEO of Tyco, who, along with two others, has been charged with looting $600 million from the company. Or Andrew Fastow, former Enron CFO, who has been charged with masterminding schemes that officials say let him pocket millions of dollars.

Take former Global Crossing chairman Gary Winnick, under fire for selling $734 million in Global Crossing stock before the company's collapse. Or John Rigas, founder of Adelphia Communications, who — along with two sons — was accused of stealing hundreds of millions from the company.

This image — CEO as crook — changes everything. It changes the way millions of investors view Corporate America. It changes the way the nation's best and brightest leaders of the future view the executive seat. It changes the way honest, hardworking CEOs view themselves and their peers. And it changes the way some scandal-weary boards of directors will operate.

"It threatens the very fabric of our system," says William George, former CEO of Medtronic, an outspoken critic of corporate greed.

But it doesn't change one thing: the internal motivations that prodded a plethora of top executives to enrich themselves at the expense of shareholders and workers.

Were he still alive, Dr. Seuss might have his own name for it: Yertle the Turtle syndrome. Sound hokey? Well, the more Yertle got, the more the imperious turtle wildly fantasized about what else he could get — until his kingdom literally toppled into the muck.

Some of the nation's top corporate psychologists say that's precisely what's taking place in Corporate America. This isn't about simple greed. It's about a warped executive mind-set — stoked by the faux tech boom of the 1990s — that's so out of whack it threatens the credibility of big business.

It wasn't long ago that CEOs were equated with rock stars and heralded as corporate messiahs. Now, after various scandals, investors are lumping corporate chiefs into the same ethical junk heap as con artists and two-bit crooks.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2002-10-10-ceo-psychology_x.htm



This behavior more mirrors addiction than irrational self-interest -- but then there is the other dimension of those who are well suited for the tasks of commanding an industry -- they have anti-social personality disorder - aka sociopaths.  It's highly unlikely that Taggert would ever come face to face with exactly who and what he was because men like him have no consciense.  They are exactly like criminals.

But as Twain would say -- it's in their make.

Sorry Mike -- I'll have to catch you on the next sitting.  

Ron
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21 posted 2007-06-24 02:58 PM


Not a lot of time, but two quick points, if I may, Reb.

First, we probably shouldn't forget that a CEO is, when push comes to shove, just another employee. And I've never seen ANY company that didn't have an ongoing problem with employee theft. Not every employee is a thief, of course, but not every CEO is either.

Second, I had to smile at one of the questions in your quotation: "When you're already a multimillionaire, why do you need more?"

I smiled because I have to strongly suspect that many Third World families, subsisting on the equivalent of a few hundred dollars a year, probably say much the same thing about Middle Class America. We already have SO MUCH, and yet it seems as if we're all scrambling for just a little bit more. Isn't that pretty much symptomatic of the human condition, though? When we have everything we could ever possibly want, we either stop breathing or very quickly find something else to want. It doesn't necessarily have to more of the same, of course, but up to a certain point, that seems to be almost inevitable. Why does a Middle Class family have to have two or three cars? I think it's pretty much the same reason the wealthy might have two or three houses. The more one has, the more one needs to support it.

At the end of the day, the rich are the same as the poor. They just have more money is all.

rwood
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22 posted 2007-06-24 04:19 PM


*shiver* up my spine, here.

all this talk about Corporations and CEO's is chilling me cuz I remember, all too well, what it was like working for them.

there was some high times, but more often than not the air was filled with bloody fear and greed. There were bowls of anti-depressants in the "green room".

Thankfully, there is always a window, somewhere, where one can get some fresh air.

I'm a sucker for rags to riches stories, like the one LeeJ posted in announcements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k08yxu57NA


I couldn't be happier for this man, but I'm worried at the same time. I hope he never loses his humble heart.


what he has, you can't teach, but it can be taken away. Sighs. Media Moguls.


Local Rebel
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23 posted 2007-06-24 08:55 PM


Ron,

Motivation is quite a bit more complex than that. The unchecked motivation for revenge, for example, is so strong that a person will give up everything to obtain it.  Also for love.  Neurotransmitters take over.  That doesn't mean that self-interest isn't still present -- but rationality is a hard thing to come by when you're really ticked off -- or just aroused.

That doesn't mean that I don't buy Maslow's intent -- it's just that subsequent studies have shown that the real motivations don't come in any specific hierarchy.  

It makes sense that people may care more about surviving than art -- but, not more than status or revenge, or schadenfreude.

Giving our reward-center in the brain what it wants is ultimately what motivates.

The personality types that are suited to making the kinds of decisions that many CEO's have to make -- especially the ones that have to climb from the bottom to get there -- are willing to do things to get there that most 'normal' people aren't willing to do.

On the other hand -- studies have shown that our reward center responds to paying taxes (involuntarily) -- but that voluntary charity donations do produce a stronger response.  (in normal people)

Twain was more right a century earlier.


Local Rebel
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24 posted 2007-06-24 09:07 PM


Mike,

quote:

Who said Ron wasn't a success? If he put everything he had into it, who would you or I be to say he wasn't successful? Is the bottom line on the bank statement the only measure of success?



On reading his bio the apparent bar Ron set for himself was avoiding starvation.

quote:

Then your doubts are in grave error, reb. I've never given a thought to having more money than Bill Gates. The Masters? Sure, in a daydream I would like to win one but I have never even considered putting in the time and effort to be good enough to make it a reality. Tiger did. Why would you think I would seriously want either of those things? Because that's what people are supposed to want? Believe me, many don't. I'm perfectly content to have what I have but then I've never professed to be a Rand character.



Are these excuses Mike?  You wanted to be a Rand character.  You've said you tried -- couldn't do it.  What do you think about that attempt tended to drive away your friends?  

Is it possible your poker buddies don't really want to win either -- but just enjoy the game?  Gambling addicts -- they aren't really about winning are they?  It's just the thrill of the risk that they're addicted to -- win or lose -- the game is the thing.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way -- it's really only my intent to get people to stop beating themselves up for not reaching the stars -- which is what philosophies like Objectivism tend to do -- and why I prefer Twain to Rand.

On the other hand -- it's also my intent to get people who have 'success' to be disabused of the notion that they are 'self-made' -- or that thier success belongs to them alone -- it doesn't.

You may invent a confection better than ice-cream.  How boring if there is no one to eat it.

Balladeer
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25 posted 2007-06-24 10:28 PM


Excuses, Reb? What am I trying to excuse? That I'm not richer than Gates? That I haven't won the Masters?  Those have never been goals of mine so why should I have to make excuses for not reaching them? Afraid I don't understand the comment.

On reading his bio the apparent bar Ron set for himself was avoiding starvation

I can't presume to speak for Ron and have no idea what the situation was back then but I find it highly unlikely that ron considered himself a failure in that department. He may have lost his money. He may have been facing starvation. It would appear that we have different definitions of failure. It is my belief that, when a man does everything he can possibly do to reach a specific goal, he is a success, no matter what. Did Ron do EVERYTHING he possibly could for years to achieve that specific goal? Only he would be able to answer that one. Of course you have to understand what "everything one can possibly do" signifies. It's not simply opening a store, putting an ad in the paper and, when no customers come, say "Well, I tried." Thomas Edison failed hundreds of time to create the light bulb. When asked how he endured all those failures, he replied, "Those weren't failures. I discovered hundreds of ways NOT to create a light bulb!"
You are exactly right about gambling addicts....winning is secondary to the thrill. Do my poker buddies want to win? Sure? Is it their only goal? Nope. The comraderie, the recognition of being a "competent player", the armosphere....all of these are equally important. If one were to add up all the wins and losses by equally capable players for the year, the money won or lost would be negligible.....the 52 nights of comraderie and friendship priceless.  You want losers? Go to Vegas or Atlantic City and you can pick them out every night. You want people dedicated to winning? Go to (I forget which) university where 8 students trained for years to break the bank in blackjack and then went to Vegas and did just that (for which they are now permanently banned from all casinos).

What do you think about that attempt tended to drive away your friends?   Great question there, reb. I tried to think rationally at all times, act rationally and make everything I did count....tough for a 19 year old soldier together with a battalion of other 19 year olds. there was no laughing at jokes I didn't find funny, no drinking just to get plastered, no "moral santions" given to mindless actions....the list can go on and on. I was as liked as Howard Roark or Francisco D'. In one part of Atlas Shrugged francisco asked Dagny if it  ever bothered her that in school she had had no friends or popularity. She slapped him and he understood because he had felt the same way. It is a downside, and a big one. The biggest reason for my failure, though, was much more important. I had no purpose. All of her characters were driven to fulfill a purpose. I had none and therefore nothing to drive myself toward, nothing to dedicate my life toward achieving. Without that, the attempt was meaningless. Guess what? I still don't, in terms of financial gain. I can live with that...even if it means I'll never be John Galt.

it's really only my intent to get people to stop beating themselves up for not reaching the stars -- which is what philosophies like Objectivism tend to do

In that case, you don't get the point of Rand's philosophy at all.  Rand did not advocate reaching the stars. She only advocated TRYING to reach the stars....trying to do the best one can do based on their abilities. It does not condemn those not willing to try. It simply advocates lead, follow, or get out of the way. For those who would beat themselves up for not becoming richer than Gates, they can blame their own irrational view of reality and not Objectivism. Religion encourages that all men be holy, which no man can fully attain. Do you then condemn religion for causing people to beat themselves up for not achieving sainthood?

it's also my intent to get people who have 'success' to be disabused of the notion that they are 'self-made' -- or that thier success belongs to them alone -- it doesn't.

No intelligent successful man worth his salt would claim that their success belongs to them alone. Success relies on many thing including chance, luck, right place-right time, and a host of intangibles. However he realizes that his success was made possible by the fact that he initiated it. He put out the effort to make it possible and to give the intangibles a chance to come along. As Lee Trevino once said, "It's funny but the more I practice the luckier I get!"  So, if your two goals stated here (1) getting people to stop beating themselves up and (2) disabusing self-made people of their "all mine" notions, relax and have a beer. They are taken care of.

Lastly, success is never boring


Ron
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26 posted 2007-06-24 10:48 PM


quote:
On reading his bio the apparent bar Ron set for himself was avoiding starvation.

That was a bit tongue in cheek, Reb. The studio was actually more than mildly successful and I sold my interest in it to my partner after two years for a nice profit. He kept it going another five years.

I sold the studio for the same reason I eventually got out of Commercial Art. I discovered, first, that the emphasis was much more on commercial than on art, and -- much, much worse -- I realized I was personally much better at the commerce than I would ever be at the art. I still remember the precise moment my career as an artist ended. My downfall was Pablo Picasso and the realization I would never be THAT good. I was still young enough, naïve enough, and idealist enough to be unwilling to settle for second best.

quote:
On the other hand -- it's also my intent to get people who have 'success' to be disabused of the notion that they are 'self-made' -- or that thier success belongs to them alone -- it doesn't.

On the contrary, Reb, I believe we are all self-made, success or failure notwithstanding.

If you want people to share the credit, Reb, you also have to be willing to let them share the blame. What you're suggesting is just another way of saying, "It wasn't my fault." I really don't think you can have one without the other. Taking credit is just the flip side of accepting responsibility.



Local Rebel
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27 posted 2007-06-25 12:34 PM


quote:

No intelligent successful man worth his salt would claim that their success belongs to them alone. Success relies on many thing including chance, luck, right place-right time, and a host of intangibles.



Let's start there since we are in total agreement Mike, and, I'll add that invention is a process of happy accidents.  Sometimes all you have to do is sit under a tree and have an apple hit you in the head.

Granted -- one would have required a lifetime of preparation to understand what's happy about the accident when it happens.

quote:

On the contrary, Reb, I believe we are all self-made, success or failure notwithstanding.

If you want people to share the credit, Reb, you also have to be willing to let them share the blame. What you're suggesting is just another way of saying, "It wasn't my fault." I really don't think you can have one without the other. Taking credit is just the flip side of accepting responsibility.



Which man could have succeeded without a market?  Without a Constitution of rights,laws, and courts?  Without teachers?  Without a central banking system?  Public schools?  Post-secondary grants, loans, scholarships, veterans benefits, a culture to give success context?

Here's the test Ron -- was Edison's Lightbulb our (humanity's) achievement -- or was it Edison's?  Or both?  Was stepping on the moon Armstrong's achievment?  Nasa's?  Ours?  A small step for a man, a giant leap for mankind?

People used to come to me, companies, in the process of launching new products -- with the product in design phase -- show me the concept and then ask me to invent (design) something that would produce it at an economical price-point.  I'd bid the jobs with a cartoon concept -- If I won the bid -- then I had to start hammering that concept into the constraints of reality -- time, money, and physics.  Very seldom did it look the same when I got done with it as what was sold at the begining of the process -- point being -- it was always a process of work, knowledge, and lots of LUCK!

But still -- even when lucky (and good) -- it had no context without the need to make the product.  The product had not context without a market.

quote:

Excuses, Reb? What am I trying to excuse? That I'm not richer than Gates? That I haven't won the Masters?  Those have never been goals of mine so why should I have to make excuses for not reaching them? Afraid I don't understand the comment.



On page one you said;

quote:

It's curious how we can set up our own barricades to excuse our NOT being able to do something instead of just doing it.



This is where the rubber hits the road guys.  Mike -- you say, if I may paraphrase, that if someone is just willing to try -- that is success -- but Rand's capitalism doesn't reward trying.  There is no consolation prize for attempting to build the perpetual motion motor.

And I'll pick this up in the Einstein thread later..


Ron
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28 posted 2007-06-25 01:29 AM


quote:
Which man could have succeeded without a market?  Without a Constitution of rights,laws, and courts?  Without teachers?  Without a central banking system?  Public schools?  Post-secondary grants, loans, scholarships, veterans benefits, a culture to give success context?

And what man could have failed without the same? You essentially blur the distinction between George Washington and Adolph Hitler, Reb. If neither man can have succeeded, then surely neither man could have failed. They were the same.

And society fares no better in your imagined world. If Edison's accomplishments were not his own, if they are to be claimed by you and I, then I'm afraid you and I have to also lay claim to the accomplishments of Jeffrey Dahmer. If we are all to be inventers and geniuses, then we must all also be murderers and sociopaths.

quote:
But still -- even when lucky (and good) -- it had no context without the need to make the product.  The product had not context without a market.

Without a market, Reb, there never was a product. I think, as an engineer, you are perhaps confusing the thing with the need (perceived or real) that every product must fulfill to even be a product. Edison didn't invent a light bulb. He devised a solution.

Of course, what you're actually referencing, Reb, is the need for an infrastructure. The man who invented the wheel didn't have a lot of infrastructure behind him, Newton and Edison certainly had a great deal more, and you have still more yet. Success isn't diminished by the need for an infrastructure, Reb, but rather is defined by it. The wheel, Classical Physics, the light bulb, and yea, hopefully even the products you design, are all accomplishments that extend the existing infrastructure. That's hardly an indictment of individual achievement to may way of thinking.

quote:
I'd bid the jobs with a cartoon concept -- If I won the bid -- then I had to start hammering that concept into the constraints of reality -- time, money, and physics.

But you could never win a bid in your reality, Reb. After all, that would be a success and something you would clearly have to share with me and Mike.



Local Rebel
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29 posted 2007-06-25 06:39 AM


If society/the economy demanded mass murders and megalomaniacs then Dhamer and Hitler (you brought him up Ron -- you lose   ) are providing solutions.  Is that the case -- or are they working against the terms of cooperation?

I'm not confusing the tool with the need.  As I've said many times -- people don't want drills -- they want holes.  Nobody wanted a light 'bulb' -- we wanted light.

Every bid that I won was yours and Mikes Ron -- because it fulfilled a part of your infrastructure.  When I made a buck and went to the store and bought a can of beans the farmer who produced the beans, the factory workers who made the tractors, combines, wagons, trucks, that were necessary to produce that can of beans -- the fuel company that went to the ground to get oil and coal -- the people who pulled the ore out of the ground and turned it into iron - the chemists who made the plastics -- the tool makers and engineers who produced the tools -- the people who made the can -- the truck drivers that drove it to the store -- the advertising agency that told me about the beans -- the people at the store where I bought it -- the computer programmers who provided software to keep track of all that data -- the revenues paid to the local, state, and federal governments -- all won that bid and made a buck.  (with apologies to Zig Ziglar for mangling his speech from 30 year memory).


Brad
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30 posted 2007-06-25 07:06 AM


Zig Ziglar? Now that was a long, long time ago.



rwood
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31 posted 2007-06-25 07:47 AM


Zig Man Ziglar? Wow. I haven't heard that name in eons.


quote:
it's really only my intent to get people to stop beating themselves up for not reaching the stars -- which is what philosophies like Objectivism tend to do


Now hold on. I tend to try to keep my feet planted firmly on the ground with a level head, while I admire the stars. If by chance I do something that catapults me to the top of whatever mountain of responsibility it took for me to get there. I'll be a bit closer to the stars, but I'll never forget the valley from whence I came and how easy it might be for me to roll back down into it.

It's irrational to beat one's self up in the game of success. Causes over achievement, early burn out, the need for stress and anger management courses, heart attacks, divorce and detachment because people are married to their jobs.

but mainly, that's how some struggle with delusions of grandeur which goes against Objectivity. That type of behavior resists reason and the focus becomes success at any price.

I'm glad I didn't succeed at some of my cockamamie ideas.


Balladeer
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32 posted 2007-06-25 08:44 AM


So why would people beat themelves up for not suceeding if success depended on so many other people, events, luck, the market, etc.? They can go to you to let them know it's not really their fault

Rand's theory on capitalism does not reward effort without financial success? Again I will remind you of Howard Roark, her main character in The Fountainhead. Financial-success wise, he was a zero all the way through the book up to the end. He was a hero because he had a set of goals and ideals he would not abandon, even when he was offered millions to do so, even while starving. What about Halley, whose music was the most glorious sound Dagny had ever heard? He struggled for years in the "outside" world. His music was what made him a hero of hers, not how many times he topped the charts, like Snoop Doggy Dog. Even John Galt could have - and was prepared to - live out his days at the Gulch and would have if the national collapse of the country had not presented itself while he ws still alive. Her books are riddled with examples of characters who were not capitalistic successes but heroes, nontheless.

People set up excuses for their failures? I certainly stand by that but I didn't and don't see how tht applies to my not winning the Masters, for example.   If you were to hear me whine about not having a green jacket because people just didn't give me a chance, because I didn't have the money for good equipment, because the committee at Augusta are jerks or a variety of other reasons (while excluding the fact that I never practiced or made any serious effort to get to that level of expertise), then I could see your point. People have a ready finger to point all over the place at things or events to justify their failures. People won't buy your new creation better than ice cream? DOn't waste that one on Famous Amos. The possibility of that happening didn't deter him.

As soon as you set up all your "failure" option on why you may not succeed (none of them being your own fault, of course) you have insured non-success. If someone were to come out with a book entitled "You're a Failure But It's Not your Fault, it would probably sell millions. I would do it but there are so many hours in a day, you know, and a man has to work and when I get home I'm too tired to think and the kids have the darn tv going all the time and I don't have any pencil;s handy to jot down notes...it's not my fault!

Ron
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33 posted 2007-06-25 01:39 PM


quote:
Every bid that I won was yours and Mikes Ron ...

You really should have called, Reb. There were a few bids there I probably would not have accepted as optimally profitable. Ultimately, our net to the infrastructure could have been much higher had you but listened to me. You should have called.

But that's okay, too, I guess. It's certainly not your fault you didn't call. Not in a world void of successes and failures. What say we blame that one on Mike?  

Balladeer
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34 posted 2007-06-25 02:27 PM


Don't blame me! Everybody knows he's a Rebel
Local Rebel
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35 posted 2007-06-25 07:59 PM


quote:

You really should have called, Reb. There were a few bids there I probably would not have accepted as optimally profitable. Ultimately, our net to the infrastructure could have been much higher had you but listened to me. You should have called.

But that's okay, too, I guess. It's certainly not your fault you didn't call. Not in a world void of successes and failures. What say we blame that one on Mike?  



Inadvisable Ron.

Analyzing a business on a product-by-product or project-by-project basis is misleading to the overall gestalt of the organization. Even a money-losing project can be beneficial to the enterprise if it absorbs overhead, thus supporting the margins on other projects.  In an endeavor that is heavily dependent upon skilled specialists in particular it is important to keep thier hours in 'inventory' for future profit.

Moreover -- sometimes it's better to take on a losing project with a new customer in order to learn how to make money off of him or her.

Remember, Brad is the cute one.  

Local Rebel
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36 posted 2007-06-25 08:11 PM


All;

quote:

Another aspect of her philosophy that I would like to talk about -- one of the hazards -- is the appalling moralism that Ayn Rand herself practiced and that so many of her followers also practice. I don't know of anyone other than the Church fathers in the Dark Ages who used the word "evil" quite so often as Ayn Rand.

Of all the accusations of her critics, surely the most ludicrous is the accusation that Ayn Rand encourages people to do just what they please. If there's anything in this world Ayn did not do, it was to encourage people to do what they please. If there is anything she was not, it was an advocate of hedonism.

She may have taught that "Man's Life" is the standard of morality and your own life is its purpose, but the path she advocated to the fulfillment of your life was a severely disciplined one. She left many of her readers with the clear impression that life is a tightrope and that it is all too easy to fall off into moral depravity. In other words, on the one hand she preached a morality of joy, personal happiness, and individual fulfillment; on the other hand, she was a master at scaring the hell out of you if you respected and admired her and wanted to apply her philosophy to your own life.

She used to say to me, "I don't know anything about psychology, Nathaniel." I wish I had taken her more seriously. She was right; she knew next to nothing about psychology. What neither of us understood, however, was how disastrous an omission that is in a philosopher in general and a moralist in particular. The most devastating single omission in her system and the one that causes most of the trouble for her followers is the absence of any real appreciation of human psychology and, more specifically, of developmental psychology, of how human beings evolve and become what they are and of how they can change.

So, you are left with this sort of picture of your life. You either choose to be rational or you don't. You're honest or you're not. You choose the right values or you don't. You like the kind of art Rand admires or your soul is in big trouble. For evidence of this last point, read her essays on esthetics (Rand, 1970). Her followers are left in a dreadful position: If their responses aren't "the right ones," what are they to do? How are they to change? No answer from Ayn Rand. Here is the tragedy: Her followers' own love and admiration for her and her work become turned into the means of their self-repudiation and self-torture. I have seen a good deal of that, and it saddens me more than I can say.

Let's suppose a person has done something that he or she knows to be wrong, immoral, unjust, or unreasonable: instead of acknowledging the wrong, instead of simply regretting the action and then seeking, compassionately, to understand why the action was taken and asking where was I coming from? and what need was I trying in my own twisted way to satisfy? -- instead of asking such questions, the person is encouraged to brand the behavior as evil and is given no useful advice on where to go from there. You don't teach people to be moral by teaching them self-contempt as a virtue.

Enormous importance is attached in Rand's writings to the virtue of justice. I think one of the most important things she has to say about justice is that we shouldn't think of justice only in terms of punishing the guilty but also in terms of rewarding and appreciating the good. I think her emphasis on this point is enormously important.

To look on the dark side, however, part of her vision of justice is urging you to instant contempt for anyone who deviates from reason or morality or what is defined as reason or morality. Errors of knowledge may be forgiven, she says, but not errors of morality. Even if what people are doing is wrong, even if errors of morality are involved, even if what people are doing is irrational, you do not lead people to virtue by contempt. You do not make people better by telling them they are despicable. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work when religion tries it and it doesn't work when objectivism tries it.

If someone has done something so horrendous that you want to tell him or her that the action is despicable, go ahead. If you want to tell someone he is a rotten son-of-a-(pip-edit), go ahead. If you want to call someone a scoundrel, go ahead. I don't deny that there are times when that is a thoroughly appropriate response. What I do deny is that it is an effective strategy for inspiring moral change or improvement.

The great, glaring gap in just about all ethical systems of which I have knowledge, even when many of the particular values and virtues they advocate may be laudable, is the absence of a technology to assist people in getting there, an effective means for acquiring these values and virtues, a realistic path people can follow. That is the great missing step in most religions and philosophies. And this is where psychology comes in: One of the tasks of psychology is to provide a technology for facilitating the process of becoming a rational, moral human being.

You can tell people that it's a virtue to be rational, productive, or just, but, if they have not already arrived at that stage of awareness and development on their own, objectivism does not tell them how to get there. It does tell you you're rotten if you fail to get there.

Ayn Rand admirers come to me and say, "All of her characters are so ambitious. I'm thirty years old and I don't know what to do with my life. I don't know what I want to make of myself. I earn a living, I know I could be better than I am, I know I could be more productive or creative, and I'm not. I'm rotten. What can I do?" I've heard some version of this quite often. I've heard it a lot from some very intelligent men and women who are properly concerned they they have many capacities they are not using, and who long for something more -- which is healthy and desirable, but the self-blame and self-hatred is not and it's very, very common.

The question for me is: How come you don't have the motivation to do more? How come so little seems worth doing? In what way, in what twisted way, perhaps, might you be trying to take care of yourself by your procrastination, by your inertia, by your lack of ambition? Let's try to understand what needs you're struggling to satisfy. Let's try to understand where you're coming from.

That is an approach I learned only after my break with Ayn Rand. It is very foreign to the approach I learned in my early years with her. And it's very foreign to just about every objectivist I've ever met. However, if we are to assist people to become more self-actualized, that approach is absolutely essential. We are all of us organisms trying to survive. We are all of us organisms trying in our own way to use our abilities and capacities to satisfy our needs. Sometimes the paths we choose are pretty terrible, and sometimes the consequences are pretty awful for ourselves and others. Until and unless we are willing to try to understand where people are coming from, what they are trying to accomplish, and what model of reality they're operating from -- such that they don't see themselves as having better alternatives, we cannot assist anyone to reach the moral vision that objectivism holds as a possibility for human beings.

.........

So here in Ayn Rand's work is an ethical philosophy with a great vision of human possibilities, but no technology to help people get there, and a lot of messages encouraging self-condemnation when they fail to get there.

Her readers come to me and they say; "Boy, it was so great. I read her books and I got rid of the guilt that the Church laid on me. I got rid of the guilt over sex. Or wanting to make money." "Why have you come to see me?", I ask. "Well, now I'm guilty about something else. I'm not as good as John Galt. Sometimes I'm not even sure I'm as good as Eddie Willers," they respond.


NathanielBranden



Local Rebel
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37 posted 2007-06-25 08:33 PM


quote:

I tried to think rationally at all times, act rationally and make everything I did count....tough for a 19 year old soldier together with a battalion of other 19 year olds. there was no laughing at jokes I didn't find funny, no drinking just to get plastered, no "moral santions" given to mindless actions....the list can go on and on. I was as liked as Howard Roark or Francisco D'. In one part of Atlas Shrugged francisco asked Dagny if it  ever bothered her that in school she had had no friends or popularity. She slapped him and he understood because he had felt the same way. It is a downside, and a big one.



quote:

In the days of my association with Ayn Rand, we heard over and over again the accusation that we are against feelings, against emotions. And we would say in all good faith, "What are you talking about? We celebrate human passion. All the characters in the novels have powerful emotions, powerful passions. They feel far more deeply about things than does the average person. How can you possibly say that we are against feeling and emotion?"

The critics were right. Here is my evidence: When we counsel parents, we always tell them, in effect: "Remember, your children will pay more attention to what you do than what you say. No teaching is as powerful as the teaching of the example. It isn't the sermons you deliver that your children will remember, but the way you act and live." Now apply that same principle to fiction, because the analogy fits perfectly. On the one hand, there are Rand's abstract statements concerning the relationship of mind and emotion; on the other hand, there is the behavior of her characters, the way her characters deal with their feelings.

If, in page after page of The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, you show someone being heroic by ruthlessly setting feelings aside, and if you show someone being rotten and depraved by, in effect, diving headlong into his feelings and emotions, and if that is one of your dominant methods of characterization, repeated again and again, then it doesn't matter what you profess, in abstract philosophy, about the relationship of reason and emotion. You have taught people: repress, repress, repress.

If you want to know the means by which they were taught, notwithstanding all the celebrations of passion in Ayn Rand's books, study the scenes in The Fountainhead that deal with Roark's way of responding to his own suffering, study the ruthlessness toward their own feelings and emotions exhibited by the heroes and heroine of Atlas Shrugged, and study also consistent way in which villains are characterized in terms of following their feelings. And understand the power of role models to shape beliefs.

When admirers of Ayn Rand seek my services professionally, they often come with the secret hope, rarely acknowledged in words, that with Nathaniel Branden they will at last become the masters of repression needed to fulfill the dream of becoming an ideal objectivist. When I tell them, usually fairly early in our relationship, that one of their chief problems is that they are out of touch with their feelings and emotions, cut off from them and oblivious, and that they need to learn how to listen more to their inner signals, to listen to their emotions, they often exhibit a glazed shock and disorientation. I guess I should admit that seeing their reaction is a real pleasure to me, one of the special treats of my profession you might say, and I do hope you will understand that I am acknowledging this with complete affection and good will and without any intention of sarcasm. The truth is, seeing their confusion and dismay, that it's hard to keep from smiling a little.

One of the first things I need to convey to them is that when they deny and disown their feelings and emotions, they really subvert and sabotage their ability to think clearly -- because they cut off access to too much vital information. This is one of my central themes in The Disowned Self. No one can be integrated, no one can function harmoniously, no one can think clearly and effectively about the deep issues of life who is oblivious to the internal signals, manifested as feelings and emotions, rising from within the organism. My formula for this is: "Feel deeply to think clearly." It seems, however, to take a long time -- for objectivists and nonobjectivists alike -- to understand that fully. Most of us have been encouraged to deny and repress who we are, to disown our feelings, to disown important aspects of the self, almost from the day we were born. The road back to selfhood usually entails a good deal of struggle and courage.

I know a lot of men and women who, in the name of idealism, in the name of lofty beliefs, crucify their bodies, crucify their feelings, and crucify their emotional life, in order to live up to that which they call their values. Just like the followers of one religion or another who, absorbed in some particular vision of what they think human beings can be or should be, leave the human beings they actually are in a very bad place: a place of neglect and even damnation. However, and this is a theme I shall return to later, no one ever grew or evolved by disowning and damning what he or she is. We can begin to grow only after we have accepted who we are and what we are and where we are right now. And no one was ever motivated to rise to glory by the pronouncement that he or she is rotten.

NathanielBranden



Ron
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38 posted 2007-06-25 10:43 PM


quote:
Analyzing a business on a product-by-product or project-by-project basis is misleading to the overall gestalt of the organization.

Yep. That's why I specifically said "optimally profitable," Reb. Sometimes you have to accept a deal where the profit is NOT money, but something less tangible. Trust me, Reb, programmers are no less expensive a resource to maintain than are engineers. I understand what you're saying.

But that wasn't the point, was it? By not calling me on our bid, I never had the opportunity to make a decision.

Ironically, Bill Gates hasn't called me about our company, either.

Question: Do you want us to debate Rand's estranged protégé, Nathaniel Branden, Reb? Or are we to assume that everything you quoted from him also mirrors your own stance? Are you prepared to answer questions about the stance you and Branden are advocating?



Local Rebel
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39 posted 2007-06-25 11:20 PM


quote:

But that wasn't the point, was it? By not calling me on our bid, I never had the opportunity to make a decision.

Ironically, Bill Gates hasn't called me about our company, either.



What you land on is up to the dice you roll Ron.  If you buy it or not is up to you.  If you put houses and hotels on it, up to you.  You may win the game.  I may lose the game.  But you can't win if there isn't a game.  We all own the board.

Moreover -- Rand's fantasy that an elite class holds up the world is a blatant appeal to vanity.  Do you deny the interstitchal nature of the economy.  Doesn't the rising tide lift all boats?

My chocolate is in your peanut butter.

How can you have a discussion about Rand without Brandon Ron?  Discuss away -- I'
m up all night no matter how bad it hurts me --I have an EEG in the morning and I have to limit sleep.

Ron
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40 posted 2007-06-26 12:32 PM


quote:
What you land on is up to the dice you roll ...

Sure, Reb, but we don't generally get just one turn. Over the course of a lifetime, most of us are going to land on every single square. Usually several times. And, unlike board games, there's nothing to prevent us from both buying Oriental Ave.

Is luck a factor? Absolutely. But, statistically, in the long run, we all have exactly the same luck. Contrary to popular opinion, Chance doesn't play favorites.

quote:
Moreover -- Rand's fantasy that an elite class holds up the world is a blatant appeal to vanity.  Do you deny the interstitchal nature of the economy.  Doesn't the rising tide lift all boats?

First, Reb, let me clarify something. I'm not a proponent of Ayn Rand so much as I'm a proponent of some of her ideas. Personally, I think Newton was a bit off center, too, but that doesn't change the value of the gravitational constant by so much as a decimal place.

Addressing specific differences, especially in light of this particular thread, I believe capitalism is the ONLY economic system viable in any setting larger than a family, but I am NOT in favor of Rand's brand of laissez-faire capitalism. I think we need controls, lest capitalism run amok. However, I should quickly add that I typically advocate slightly fewer controls than necessary rather than risk too many controls.

And, yes, of course, the rising tide lifts all boats. Just as the receding tide lowers them again. We are ALL under exactly the same constraints, Reb. Sure, the successful stand on the shoulders of giants. So do the failures, though.

Certainly we should give all due credit to the giants of the past, as well as to the contemporaries that support our efforts today. A restaurant can't exist without its vendors, and a restaurant on the local Restaurant Row is as dependent on the success of the other restaurants on the street as on its own marketing. No economy exists in a vacuum. I know exactly what you mean, Reb, and I completely agree.

It does not, however, follow that we should attribute our success or blame our failure (and, again, you can't advocate one without advocating both) on others. That's just a cop out, in my opinion. We have to accept responsibility for our own decisions, and that's just as true of success as it is for failure. I acknowledge the dependencies, Reb, but regulated Capitalism bends over backwards to make sure we get to choose our dependencies.

Those choices, I think, mean the difference between success and failure.

(And good luck at the doctors, Reb.)



Local Rebel
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41 posted 2007-06-26 04:03 PM


Thanks Ron -- since they were just looking at my brain waves there's not really any chance of them finding anything!  

I, like you, am not against ALL of Rand's ideas, and my major point of contention is not so ironically, and almost predictably -- the same as yours -- that laizzes-fare capitalism is rational self-interest.  In fact -- if I were an Objectivist -- I'd accuse Rand of 'evading' and being evil for it.  Because, I don't personally believe that she believed what she was saying was true.  I think she merely recognized that she could buck a trend and make a move into an uncontested field in a way that would resonate with the people who were most in a position to benefit HER.  So, that was rational self-interest.  

I'm also not advocating that we take away, or fail to acknowledge individual success -- I am pointing out that we, as a collective share in that success -- because if it hadn't been for our need of light in the cold dark night (hey it's a poetry site) there would have been no impetus to make an electric light bulb.

We, as a collective, gave him a patent that protected his individual acheivement so that Edison, and Edison alone (along with whomever might make a financial investment and take the risk that went along with it) could benefit from that achievment.  But, when the time was up the time was up.  The electric light bulb reverted to the property of us all, and the world.

Of course, through good management he was able to turn that head start into the powerhouse that is still General Electric.  Anybody feel like investing money in a company that does exactly the same things as General Electric?

We don't, statistically, have the same luck though.  In fact, it's more accurate that a histogram compiled of the entire population is going to be extremely multi-modal and surrounding those many humps we will see issues such as race, gender, and economic/social class emerge as the assignable causes.

Now, anybody know a good solvent to get this crappy conductive paste out of my hair?  

Drauntz
Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905
Los Angeles California
42 posted 2007-06-27 01:06 PM


make you head bald, sir Rebel.
Drauntz
Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905
Los Angeles California
43 posted 2007-06-27 01:55 PM


to Sir local rebel or whoever has answers

The kind of economy what Sir Rebel talked about  almost did not exist because which is base on everybody had equal consuming need and all the profit he earns will back to the investment market and the investment all profit from it.

so

1. Do all the CEO's put their profit back to  the market? if they all invest their money in America not globally.( or like some one invest ?$ for a picture of Paris Hilton)

2. Do all the CEO's try hard to keep the quality of product while try hard to cutting down the cost then to control the price?  if they did not try to monopoly the market to  rise their price as much as it goes for profit?

3. what is the effect of global free trading on American economy? If individual consumer all buy online much cheaper and same quality goods from  other countries?

4. what is the function of Fed if they invest  government money (tax) by Billions for another country's political stableness  but end up causing  more chaos. and the investment lost all its capital...like half built dam or half anything?  

4. what do you benefit from Fed's ability to manipulate stock market? if the government is so scared that  all the CEO's claimed bankrupt , then 100% unemployment..people will become mobs or if not that bad, several banks where your money  is saved closed forever?  The Fed sure would support their losing on the stock market.But do they do a fair investment after being saved by Government? (they all shall be begged by Government and also invest within  in US). Is there any benefit, in general development of a society, of stock market down?

5.What if lots of money did not come back to the market like big bombs? do we benefit from that spending?


the horse of Capitalism obviously  needs a cowboy..a reasonable one as we wish due to human nature of greediness and selfishness.  But it is quite marvelous and more advanced than the pig of socialism   that every body wants to have cut but no body wants to feed it.

do I know what I am thinking? no idea.


[This message has been edited by Drauntz (06-28-2007 12:42 PM).]

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