How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Tyranny
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Tyranny

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


0 posted 06-10-2007 04:27 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.


--CS Lewis
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


1 posted 06-10-2007 04:48 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Can you think of any government we have legitimately called a tyranny that did not sincerely believe it was working in the best interests of its people?  
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


2 posted 06-10-2007 05:08 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I dunno.

I'm on triple secret probation.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


3 posted 06-10-2007 03:28 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

The Soviet Union run by Stalin
and his friends.

Iraq under Saddam Hussein and his sons.

PS, Look North Brad . . .

.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


4 posted 06-10-2007 05:49 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Whether they actually worked in the interest of their people wasn't my question.

But whether they believed they were working in the best interest of their people.

Drauntz
Member Elite
since 03-16-2007
Posts 2907
Los Angeles California


5 posted 06-10-2007 06:03 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

tyranny, with an ego as large as his ideal and as broad as his thought, put his interests always first. And if any goodness came out from him was because he did not want to be viewed as a bad person based on his own value.

I believe that they do not even think about other people's interest.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


6 posted 06-10-2007 07:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

First, let me say that I agree with your opening quote completely. May whatever God that rules save us from those that do things to us for our own good.

Having said that, I agree with John. As horrible as Hitler was, it is reasonable to accept that his actions were done to make Germany great. Hussein & family, along with your northern neighbor, showed no such nationalism. Their actions were/are for personal power and gain, period, and anyone who opposed them were eliminated. They have/had not even tried to disguise it.

Castro would be a good example of your quote.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


7 posted 06-10-2007 08:00 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

What about Jefferson, Adams, Hancock, Madison, Franklin, Washington et al?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


8 posted 06-10-2007 08:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

ok, if you want to make the case that they were tyrants, robber barons and leaders who tormented the citizens while proclaiming it was for their own good, be my guest. Expose them evildoers! (which it appears you are fully prepared to do)
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


9 posted 06-10-2007 11:22 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

On the contrary.

I'm merely pointing out that Lewis isn't giving us the divining rod for sniffing out tyrants.

Good intentions are good intentions.

The roads to hell AND heaven are paved with them.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


10 posted 06-10-2007 11:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aha...my apologies for the misconstruism..is that a word?

It doesn't read to me like he is trying to give a divining rod or clue into definitions.

but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

what he is pointing out is that, when people convince themselves that their atrocities are committed for good reasons, people are in big trouble. Hitler jumps to mind immediately, a man convinced that he was doing what was right for Germany and the Aryan race by eliminating as many "inferiors" as possible. On any level, when you can convince yourself that your actions are justifiable or you can give yourself a "moral sanction", you are apt to keep going strong. For decent or moral persons, that's a good thing. For despots, it's a bad thing for somebody!

I doubt there's a litmus test or divining rod available.....a shame.
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


11 posted 06-11-2007 10:28 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
But whether they believed they were working in the best interest of their people.


Saddam wasn't working in the best interest of his people, not did he mean to. He used them as target practice.

I do think Hitler probably thought he was working in the best interest for the German people. Man, he had the cloak over Germany's eyes. The whole of the country was unaware of his evils. And Goebbels had the country in a baby carriage. Unlike Hussein, Hitler's hatred was directed towards everyone but his Mother land.


I just read Balla's above statement. I guess I'll say I agree. LOL


“Suddenly a giant Cabbage Patch Doll jumps out from behind the shower curtain and grabs him violently.”
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


12 posted 06-11-2007 07:05 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Brad,

I think Lewis' quotation has to be taken with the understanding of his theology.  The possibility of deception (self deception being the worst kind) is prominent in his works.  Therefore someone doing terrible things believing they are noble things, doesn't mean that they were always considered noble.  It doesn't mean that he never had to battle with conscience, misgivings, and a thousand clues to the contrary.  My point is ... the distorted belief that can confuse evil with good, is not a testament to the unreliability of conscience, as much as it is to our ability to stifle, callous, and willfully cripple it.


Here's a Lewis quote from his book "Perelandra" to illustrate what I'm talking about:

"It (Dr. Weston) looked at Ransom in silence and at last began to smile.  We have all spoken- Ransom himself had often spoken- of a devilish smile.  Now he realised that he had never taken the words seriously.  The smile was not bitter, nor raging, nor, in an ordinary sense, sinister;  it was not even mocking.  It seemed to summon Ransom, with horrible naivete of welcome, into the world of its own pleasures, as if all men were at one in those pleasures, as if they were the most natural thing in the world and no dispute could ever have occurred about them.  It did not defy goodness, it ignored it to the point of annihilation.  Ransom perceived that he had never before seen anything but half-hearted and uneasy attempts at evil.  This creature was whole-hearted.  The extremity of its evil had passed beyond all struggle into some state which bore a horrible similarity to innocence.  It was beyond vice."


And while, I admit that Weston is not a picture of the supposedly "philanthropic" character you are talking about, he still illustrates that the acceptance of evil as good, with no twinge of conscience, is a late stage of corruption ... the rest period of a longer process that involved anesthetizing of conscience along the way.  


Nietzsche expressed the same idea (though oppositely to Lewis, not in censure) in The Joyful Wisdom:

"Who can attain to anything great if he does not feel in himself the force and will to inflict great pain?  The ability to suffer is a small matter;  in that line, weak women and even slaves often attain masterliness.  But not to perish from internal distress and doubt when one inflicts great suffering and hears the cry of it- that is great, that belongs to greatness."


Brad, I just think it's a long hard road to get to that point.  God made it hard.  In "Crime and Punishment" Raskolnikov was blessed enough to fail in his attempts to go down that path.  

Stephen.      

    
jbouder
Member Elite
since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


13 posted 06-12-2007 01:45 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad:

I thought you might like that essay.

I think the problem of consolidating executive, legislative, and judicial power in the hands of one or a few tends to narrow the field of who the tyrant considers "his people."  Perhaps it is possible for tyranny to begin with a movement to benefit the people (or at least be represented as such), but once power is consolidated, I believe history bears witness to the tyrant's inevitable shift to preserving his power - often by brutal means but, modernly and especially in the Western world, through demeaning rhetoric.

The checks and balances system isn't a remedy against self-interest in politics or in the judiciary.  Rather, it makes it more difficult for leaders in one political branch to encroach too far into the domain of another political branch.  In such a system, both political idealism and self interest work to the benefit of suppressing tyranny.  Doesn't always work, but most of the time I think it does.

But I think Lewis' main point is that who in power really "knows what is good" for his or her subjects?  I think it is painfully obvious to anyone who is active in lobbying that we are not living in a land ruled by Philosopher Kings.  This is true of Christians activists seeking to establish a Christian state AND liberal thought police.

Jim
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


14 posted 06-17-2007 08:56 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Does it have to be a government?

what about a bad parent?

Cruel school teachers?

abusive power and authority of autocratic sub-societies/cultures.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


15 posted 06-17-2007 11:54 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad


quote:
I think the problem of consolidating executive, legislative, and judicial power in the hands of one or a few tends to narrow the field of who the tyrant considers "his people."  Perhaps it is possible for tyranny to begin with a movement to benefit the people (or at least be represented as such), but once power is consolidated, I believe history bears witness to the tyrant's inevitable shift to preserving his power - often by brutal means but, modernly and especially in the Western world, through demeaning rhetoric.


I think so, too.

"Power corrupts, absolute power . . . ."

quote:
The checks and balances system isn't a remedy against self-interest in politics or in the judiciary.  Rather, it makes it more difficult for leaders in one political branch to encroach too far into the domain of another political branch.  In such a system, both political idealism and self interest work to the benefit of suppressing tyranny.  Doesn't always work, but most of the time I think it does.


But it is also a delicate balance. Since I'm quoting today,

"Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice."

quote:
But I think Lewis' main point is that who in power really "knows what is good" for his or her subjects?  I think it is painfully obvious to anyone who is active in lobbying that we are not living in a land ruled by Philosopher Kings.  This is true of Christians activists seeking to establish a Christian state AND liberal thought police.


Yes, though my point is that one's personal authority/power simply becomes conflated with the good of the people. Both Liberal thought police and Christianists believe that it is the best interests of all people to do what they want masking it as the word of God or concern for minorities.
Kitherion
Member
since 08-01-2006
Posts 179
Johannesburg


16 posted 06-19-2007 12:44 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Hate to be a "bad" person, but I do feel that during the examples of tyranny, man people have either - by choice or accident - forgotton to mention Mr. George, W, Bush. although not as defined as Hitlers tyrannies, if you were to do a comparison, I'm sure that you would agree.

I have no want to argue politics - I took a test and it said i have no affiliation to patriatism whatsoever - but I just thought that since we were adding in names to a possibly endless list I'd give you my 2 cents.

Now, what is to say however, that tyranny is evil? How can it not bee seen as good? Surely I understand that one ruling many is a ridiculous concept (see why i got that score?!) however, and I can see this being open for an attack , surely if IT IS PROVEN that the group are unable to take care of themself, and tus appoint a person as leader, then tyranny can't be all that bad?

Love Me

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


17 posted 06-19-2007 06:48 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Look North Kitherion


.
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


18 posted 06-19-2007 07:29 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Kitherion,

It seems you are confusing tyranny with monarchy.  Monarchy implies one ruling over all, but tyranny implies one overhwelmingly ruling over all to an extent that often leads to abuse of power and oppression.

 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Tyranny Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors