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Passions in Poetry

Atlas Shrugged--the movie?

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Drauntz
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150 posted 06-14-2007 08:20 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

I won!
Local Rebel
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151 posted 06-14-2007 08:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Not really Drauntz.  

There is no finish line here -- and in a debate the Ad hominem attacks on Rand wouldn't win you any points (unless the debate was being held about 500 years ago when the Vituperation was considered a valid argument).

In order to beat Rand (which is what you're really trying to do) you have to beat her ideas -- not her.
Huan Yi
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152 posted 06-14-2007 09:08 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Thereís a problem in this that some
have already alluded to in that you canít understand
anotherís view or, more elaborately, philosophy
except as an apperception which then discounts
it as anything the rest of us can rely on or refer to
in making their own judgments.


.
Drauntz
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153 posted 06-14-2007 09:09 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Local Rebel,
no body picked up her idea in real life. or whoever piked up has already dropped.
First, it is not hers.
Second, it is not fit to human behaviors.
Third, I do not like this "philosophy" to whomever it belongs
Fourth. I won again!
Local Rebel
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154 posted 06-14-2007 09:38 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

it is not fit to human behaviors



This, is the beginning of an argument against Objectivism.

Whether anyone (Ronald Reagan, Rush Limbaugh, Alan Greenspan, Anton Lavay) was influenced by Rand, whether or not you like her philosophy, or whether or not Objectivism is Rand's idea -- are not arguments against Objectivism.

hush
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155 posted 06-14-2007 11:53 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Well, there you have it. Drauntz won. "Ryn" Rand is evil.
Drauntz
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156 posted 06-15-2007 02:13 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz


Local Rebel

About Reagan

"On May 15 of that year, the riots increased, and the officers resorted to using firearms, shooting and killing a 25 year old San Jose man and injuring many others.[37] Reagan then called out 2,200 state National Guard troops to the university to crack down on the anti-war protesters"...government

"Please tell me you're Republicans."--freedom?

"Every country and every people has a stake in the Afghan resistance, for the freedom fighters of Afghanistan are defending principles of independence and freedom that form the basis of global security and stability"....Global interest...not self interest.

"Air traffic controllers' strike"... power of Government

"The award, the highest given by the Reagan Foundation, is presented on a regular basis to one person in the world who has "made monumental and lasting contributions to the cause of freedom worldwide"...award to the hero not the self interested head.

"Reagan stated that he considered himself a ďborn-again Christian.Ē....not an atheist.

"Beginning in 1926, Reagan was employed as a lifeguard at Lowell Park in Dixon. He was credited with saving 77 lives during the 7 summers he worked there." life saving job...self interest?

"REASON: What about Rand or Rothbard?

REAGAN: No. I havenít read Ayn Rand since The Fountainhead. I havenít read Atlas Shrugged."

"Miss Rand also speaks her mind on Jane Fonda and Ronald Reaganówhom she described as a "cheap Hollywood ham" and whose presidential candidacy she completely opposed." http://www.boxofficemojo.com/features/?id=1947&p=.htm


if Reagan once admired Rand was when they all testified in Hollywood against the communist activity.

I will post information about other names you dropped.  
Brad
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157 posted 06-15-2007 04:20 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

We are now in Bizarro world where Rand was a communist and Reagan was a social reformer.
rwood
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158 posted 06-15-2007 06:45 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Drauntz,

What exactly did you win?

quote:
Rand is evil!!!!

no body picked up her idea in real life. or whoever piked up has already dropped.
First, it is not hers.
Second, it is not fit to human behaviors.
Third, I do not like this "philosophy" to whomever it belongs.


This is how books and people get burned.

I picked up her idea/s and her book/s and I'm still standing.


quote:
woman "philosophers" and woman preachers, I take no words from them.

I do not take philosophers seriously...too much a burden.

2.She was from family of agnostic and largely non-observant ethnic Jews.

3 she was an atheist.

12.  She was a smoker.

"Reagan stated that he considered himself a ďborn-again Christian.Ē....not an atheist.




I don't know you, but your statements are very discriminatory. Your book, thus far, is taking shape as "Atlas Demonized."

rwood
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159 posted 06-15-2007 10:42 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Stephen:

Clearly Iím not a complete textbook Egoist, because it would be in my best interest to agree with you and everyone else in this forum.  

Heraclitus? Thanks. Iím happy to know who Iím borrowing from, though doesnít death absolve the absolute nature of my statement? Dunno. Absolutes are tricky and Iíve been too busy to think lately, so please bear with me while I try and reply.

Actually heís a good example of my statement of the birth of thought. I didnít know who said what I said, but such ideas span across many different cultures, doctrines, systems, social structures, successors and protťgťs of philosophy. Ideas can be perfected, most respectfully, even in the form of a Savior that some may believe in or disbelieve in. A presence is still formed. Yes?

I think ďpure formĒ is what weíre disagreeing on.

I have a hard time understanding the nature of ďpure formĒ philosophy. The static absolutes.

I feel like weíre missing something. How can a person operate on one single system of belief or principle at all times? Especially a static absolute? Isnít that a bit programmed and impossible? So why not improve or build on it and take it as a form of or a derivative of, instead of dismissing as? whatever.

It seems that Randís objectivism leads to an egoism that advocates continual betterment of self for oneís self, not the world, though the world benefits. Say Iím an alcoholic. I canít quit drinking for you. Though Iím sure anyone would be worth it, I still have to do it for myself.

ďMy philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.Ē (Ayn Rand)

where prior, egoism seems just egoism. Something one dimensional and static, so Iím not sure how that term grew with any clarity unless it contrasted some established means or mores.

quote:
Oppressively imposing morals upon others for the purpose of "self interest" is not what I am suggesting.  I am talking about the ability to make an ethical decision, based upon something other than "me".  That is what egoism, by its own tenet, denies.

If misusing moral law to abuse others muddles things up, I would also suggest that eradicating moral categories also muddles things up.  Morality and rationality often overlap, but they can't be conflated without negative consequences.


Morals are imposed for all kinds of purposes. When I made my statement, I wasnít thinking of abusive case. Labels seem to be a natural phenomenon. Why does my doctor need to know whether Iím divorced or not? So he can ask me for a date after diagnosis? How many heroes get pinned with heroism and they never once thought they were being a hero?

Iíd never suggest the eradication of morality but fitting into the categories can feel like being a square peg in a round hole. Thereís not much space between im & moral, ha, or ir & rational.

itís hard to be human.

Anyway: I donít think Rand meant that man is an island. Oh no, I didnít say it.

P.S. I fed my children for the same reasons you studied Western Philosophy.

They really caught my interest then and still do. They give me new reasons every day of why life is priceless.
Drauntz
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160 posted 06-15-2007 12:00 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

rwood

I am talking about Rand and her "philosophy" not anyone else. Do please focus on her.


since you know her so well, why tell something  about her. like her novel is well written, idea well expressed. I will 100% percent agree with you.

say something about her, not me. You are very right...you don't know me.

again  I won!
Drauntz
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161 posted 06-15-2007 02:06 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Local Rebel

Rush Limbaugh
"Prescription drug addiction" and
"Leukemia and lymphoma telethon"

you know how Rand view those behaviors.
*****************
Rush Limbaugh on Relationships...a man can not hold three marriages?

I shall get a cow from India for butter and milk but not as a god.

If I took his words seriously, call me big fat idiot.

Drauntz
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162 posted 06-15-2007 02:15 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Local Rebel,

Alan Greenspan. a very close friend of Rand and suppose to like her view of "capitalism" and "objectionism"

who is Alan Greenspan?  Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve of the United States from 1987 to 2006.
During the 1950s and 1960s Greenspan was a friend of author Ayn Rand and a proponent of her Objectivist philosophy, which among other things holds that reason, egoism and capitalism are the necessary cornerstones of a free and civilized society. He wrote articles for Objectivist newsletters, and contributed several essays for Rand's 1966 book Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal. In Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal, Greenspan wrote an essay strongly supporting the gold standard.[7] More recently however, he has been criticised by some Objectivists for his actions.

He has come under heavy criticism from Objectivists, most notably Leonard Peikoff and Harry Binswanger,[10] as they believe that working for the Federal Reserve is an abandonment of Objectivist and free market principles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Greenspan

His position in Fed is not the in the "philosophy of Rand" if we know what fed is doing.

and who is Anton Lavay??? i do not know him.

I won again.
rwood
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163 posted 06-15-2007 03:33 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Drauntz,

Did you read my post? No.

Did you read Atlas Shrugged? No.

So how can you disagree/agree with me about something you've never read? Obviously you haven't even read my other posts where I spoke of Rand's work. I'm not going to re-write her book for you since you said you had no interest. Yes, I read that too.

I made an observation about your statements, not about you as a person. You're doing a good enough job discrediting yourself all on your own.

Here's another question you may also care to ignore.

How does it feel when you think someone you don't even know is passing judgment on you as a person?


Drauntz
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164 posted 06-15-2007 05:26 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

rwood

see here, Ron's ice cream becomes your spirit.

"Say Iím an alcoholic. I canít quit drinking for you."

Exactly. To drink is your self interest...your likeness.  To quit is your self-interest too...for your physical and mental health. The two self-interests would fight. Whoever wins is determined by a rational self-interest.....where does the role of "Objectivism" play here?
hush
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165 posted 06-15-2007 05:30 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

What are you even talking about? You sound like a 12-year-old with an 8-year-old's understanding of English language and grammar. People might take you more seriously if we could even make out what you are trying to convey.
Drauntz
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166 posted 06-15-2007 05:42 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

hush,

which part do you misunderstand? I'll try my best to explain.  
Balladeer
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167 posted 06-15-2007 06:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

self interest is the only goal or purpose = an absolute.....presented by Stephanos

I don't know if you presented this as a direct quote or simply your view. If it is a direct quote, I would not agree with it, no matter who said it, even Ms. Rand. If it is YOUR concept, then I would suggest you are not looking at the bigger picture. There can certainly be other considerations which can result as by-products - and these considerations may give the doer pleasure - but self interest is the base, just as the brain may not be the only organ in the body but the body cannot exist without it. In one section of Atlas Shrugged, Henry Reardon, who had just created a new metal to be used replacing railroad ties (along with a myriad of other uses) states to a reporter that he intends to "skin the public to the tune of millions of dollars" with his new product. The reporter replies, "Wait a minute. Wouldn't the public be benefitting greatly from all of the possibilities this new invention open up?", to which reardon replies, "Oh, have you noticed that?"

Let me ask a clarifying question ... one you've seemed to be slipping all around but not really addressing:  
Are you saying that you agree that ALL thoughts and actions stem from self-interest ALONE?  Or, do you think that all other-directed acts have ONLY self interest as their motivation?
Before you answer, remember that I'm not asking whether self-interest is a part of all human action, so don't remind me of that.  I asked a very specific question.


Well, I'm sorry, sir, if you seem to feel I'm "slipping around" your questions. I'm trying to answer in the best way I know how and, if they are not acceptable to you, they are still the best I can do.  I believe that all of our actions stem from self interest. You seem to attach a great deal of importance, having mentioned it several times, to the word ALONE as if that's the part that you have such disagreement with or something. Frankly, I don't see why but I'll state as clearly as I can that I believe that self interest is the vital key of all actions. In sunshine's example of helping an old lady across the street, you don't just stand there and say to yourself "I'm going to help that woman across the street because it makes me feel good and that is my only concern so i'm gonna do it."  You simply help the woman across the street, knowing that she needed assistance and felling good that you were able to exercise an act of kindness for another human being. Let me ask you this. If helping the lady across the street was something you really didn't want to do, or something that you hated doing, would you do it anyway? Let me ask you one better. Have you ever done a kindness for someone that went unappreciated? How did you feel then? If you helped that woman across the street and she responded by saying "Get your filthy hands off me, creep!", what then?? Would you still have that rosy feeling of having helped a fellow human being? I find it unlikely. Ever hear anyone complain about not receiving a thank you note for a gift sent? Of course you have - it's human nature. So is having self interest as the motivation for every act.

I think that every philosophy "expert" has their own opinions on what true egoism is. Ayn Rand has hers and others have theirs. You seem to have zeroed in on the definition of egoism itself which explains why Brad wondered what happened to the direction of this thread, since the thread was initially about Any Rand, her book, and the feasibility of making it into a movie. Much of my responses has been to HER philosophical views and not egoism as a whole, since i have never studied it. Actually, i didn't read Ayn rand to study philosophy, either. I read her books because they were incredible stories and, since i happened to agree with the way her main characters thought and acted, that influenced me to learn more about what made the author tick.

Like her on not, she can tell a good story....


BTW.....Brad, I have to tell you I'm impressed by the way you were able to discuss what her views and thoughts were with such accuracy. For a fellow who hasn't read her "for some time", your knowledge of her views has a lot of merit

rwood
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168 posted 06-15-2007 08:07 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
Like her on not, she can tell a good story.


Amen. I certainly hope they do her book justice.

I second Brad's kudos and yours too, Mike. Refreshing input.

I think Karen's thread might be a slight example of the tension and release Ayn was marvelous in building.
Huan Yi
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169 posted 06-15-2007 08:30 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Letís take this to another scene.
What would Rand say about Jesus
giving up his life for the sins of others,
or his father letting him do it?


.
rwood
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170 posted 06-15-2007 08:55 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Drauntz,

So be it. I'll take Rand's philosophy and Ron's Ice Cream any day over your prejudiced, sexist, and downright inconsiderate views.  

Sincerely,

A smoking philosophical female who's not afraid or disrespecting of Atheists, Agnostics, Ordained females, or Jews.

huh, there's that rhyme thing again.

Drauntz
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171 posted 06-15-2007 09:05 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

rwood,

Rand was an Atheists and Reagan was a Christian. those are facts. why does it bother you?

people have different faiths which is fact too.


and why does Ron let you take his ice cream, rwood?

Local Rebel
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172 posted 06-15-2007 09:45 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

You could argue Drauntz (and win), that the people interacting with you about Rand aren't influenced by her because of the mere fact that they are still talking to you.

You continue to be sidetracked by your own red-herrings.

What you have to defeat, in order to defeat Rand, are:

Reason
Individualism
Capitalism

quote:

But few people knew that Reagan ranks among the most prolific Presidents, author of more than 5,000 letters on everything from his love of Snoopy to his guilt about sex, his hatred of gossip and his taste for Ayn Rand. And so the private account of a public life, to be published in Reagan: A Life in Letters, is a code breaker for anyone still curious about which version most resembles the Real Reagan.
http://www.amazon.com/Reagan-Letters-Kiron-K-Skinner/dp/book-citations/0743219678



The Conservative movement that overtook the Republican Party with the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980 walked straight out of Galt's Gulch.

It's possible that you don't fully comprehend the meaning of the English word 'influence'.  

Since you are obviously good at impressing yourself -- perhaps you are an inadvertent practitioner of Rand's philosophy.  

quote:

We are now in Bizarro world where Rand was a communist and Reagan was a social reformer.  



Drauntz
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173 posted 06-15-2007 09:54 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Finally, we are at the same side.

Bravo!!!!
rwood
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174 posted 06-15-2007 10:26 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Drauntz,

Reb's right. You win!!

How very Randy of you.<---That is a pun meant to make you smile. Now I'm going to be blunt with my point to you because you don't seem to actually be reading anyone's posts.

Properly address my questions and I'll address yours.

Otherwise? You're playing with yourself.
 
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