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Passions in Poetry

Mythos to Logos: What happened in the Garden?

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oceanvu2
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0 posted 05-18-2007 04:53 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

What Happened In The Garden?

This begins with a quote from Serenity's post in another thread (Intelligent Darwinism) in which she says: “mythology and the stories of religion are all hero journeys.”

To kvetch:

The Hero with a Thousand Faces” is only one aspect of Joseph Campbell‘s work, dealing with hero stories of death and renewal. Certainly, the New Testament reflects this.

However....

In other writings (and in writings by others) Campbell takes a deeper look into the Garden of Eden story, (not a “hero” story) which seems to go: We used to live in this wonderful place, then we did something to annoy the Gods, God, the Goddess, Spider Woman, etc, and now we’re stuck in this place where life is a stinker, and then you die, but, with any luck, sooner or later we get to go home.

What happened in the Garden?

This is my  take on it: When humans, Adam/Eve, ate from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Judeo-Christian version, Adam/Eve’s unity with their world was broken, and they made the distinction that “I Am Not That” which physically surrounds me. Somehow, we’ve been placed apart.  Hence, a longing for reunion with the Godhead.  

The mechanism for this sense of apartness is the acquisition of language. Per Mark, “In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” In religion and mythology, the usurpation of the “Word,” or language, a God quality, is the usurpation of the ability to make distinctions between “This” and “That.”

Prior to events in the universal Garden, only God had the ability to make distinctions, or separations, like between Heaven and Earth, Night and Day, Before and After,  You and Me, etc.

Granted, this is a gloss on the text.  At the same time, the thought that Adam and Eve discovered their sexuality in the Garden is also a gloss on the text, and, to my mind, a bit off the Mark  (excuse pun).

For correlatives, what was Prometheus doing when he delivered Fire?  What happened when Krishna created Atman and Brahman?  What is the “Veil” in the Sikh “Veil of Illusion?

Here’s a kicker:  Can Poetry be a tool to effect reunion?  For the poet of the reader?  Or is poetry just another mind-trap, the logos running amok?

Best, Jim
Ron
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1 posted 05-18-2007 08:36 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The mechanism for this sense of apartness is the acquisition of language. Per Mark, “In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” In religion and mythology, the usurpation of the “Word,” or language, a God quality, is the usurpation of the ability to make distinctions between “This” and “That.”

Sorry, Jim, but the chronology of Genesis doesn't support your suppositions.

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

In short, Jim, Adam was introduced to language prior to being expelled from the Garden, not after.

Oh, and "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (emphasis added) is generally accepted as a reference to and harbinger of Jesus. It's a metaphor, not a direct allusion to language.
serenity blaze
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2 posted 05-19-2007 12:00 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

To kvetch right back, I KNOW that the one book that I alluded to was only one aspect of the many works of my beloved Joe Campbell. (Yes he is mine.) *laughing*

I believe there are over three thousand volumes of his work, and no sir, I do not claim to have read all of them, but I aim to try.

But?

I can just as easily compare/and contrast the Fall in the Garden of Eden to The Fool's Journey--laid out in symbolic form by the major arcana of the Tarot.
http://www.learntarot.com/journey.htm


I confess I just glanced at this, but it pretty much corresponds to what I've read in The Rabbi's Tarot by Daphna Moore, although less in depth.

The metaphorical concept of the Garden of Eden as the womb is fairly standard viewpoint in many of the groups with which I had the honor of studying--and my love of symbolism does not necessarily contradict a hero from a fool. (Convenient, I know, but I like it that way.)

And nope, I haven't addressed your point, but I WAS reading--and actually just popped in to check my mail and such.

Hopefully I'll have a better response when my head isn't full of Jung. (I jump around a lot.)

I do hope to come back to this though, until then I think that in the spirit of Joseph Campbell, other creation myths should be included for consideration.
http://www.mythinglinks.org/ct~creation.html

And now I believe I'll bounce back to bed.

I'm a little distracted by the stack of books I have waiting for me there--not quite three thousand, but closer to twenty.

I do like a buffet.  

Interesting topic, though. (Naturally, I would think so, but y'caught me with my synapses down. )

sigh

I'll yank some of the Gnostic volumes down too, and I think I still have a volume of Judaic folklore as well--when I have the fortitude to face the dust storm that will ensue from my shelves.

Which reminds me, I need more shelves.

Somebody STOP me. Sheesh.

OY.

g'nite for now!

serenity blaze
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3 posted 05-19-2007 12:10 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

ooops

and a correction, according to the Pacifica Graduate Institute site:

""Joseph Campbell's Book Collection consists of nearly 3,000 volumes in fields of anthroplogy, literature, the arts, philosophy, religion, and mythology. Some are rare and many are inscribed with Campbell's marginalia. A catalog is available on the Internet."

okay? okay. I'm tard. g'nite folks.
Essorant
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4 posted 05-19-2007 02:43 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Here is how I summarize it:


-The first two humans, and at first immortal, Adam and Eve are left starknaked and vulnerable in Paradise, Eden.

-They are then decieved by the subtlest fieldbeast, the snake, into disobeying God, and eating from the forbidden Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that shall bring upon themselves eventual death.

-They are then punished and doomed by God to further woes and banished from Paradise.  

Larry C
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5 posted 05-19-2007 08:55 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

And quote is from John not Mark. So there is no pun.

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane,
I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

serenity blaze
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6 posted 05-23-2007 03:53 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Hey Jim!

I'm back. Maybe. (I never actually know for sure these days.)

But anyhoo...

Whatever happened in the Garden, I think we both agree that it probably wasn't Ed Grim's fault.  

But, I think I'm having problems focusing (entirely my own fault) and was wondering if you would re-phrase your question? I'm a little confused.

I don't understand why my interpretation of Genesis, in the context of a hero's journey, would be the cause of any misunderstanding. I believe that the beauty of the Hero's Journey is that it can be applied to pretty much anyone's story--even that of a lone valient sperm cell.

Would you mind very much helping me out here? Sometimes, when things are phrased differently I understand better. Much appreciated.

  

Oh. And this? I think this is where I got off track--

What was Prometheus doing when he "delivered" fire? Um, it was my understanding that he "stole" it--and I'm sure someone will correct me if I err, but in retaliation for his impudence, he was given the gift of "woman"--Pandora. According the Greek mythology, she came bearing the infamous gift of a jar, (not a box) a jar, from which all manner of vile and evil was delivered into the world of man. But-- not without a token of some possible mercy.

For famously, in the jar, remained "Hope". Just this morning, I heard an interesting professor on some channel (don't ask, I don't know, I was sleeping with the television on again) state that hope was actually removed from the jar and considered but was returned to the jar, because it could not be defined specifically as "good" or "evil". In other words, hope is ambiguous, and the quality of "hope" as "bad or good" depends entirely upon the unknown outcome. (Gotta love the Greeks for that one, eh?)

Then there is the mythology of Hope, herself. Who begat two daughters, Anger and Courage. (Anger for incentive of injustice, and Courage to change or otherwise rectify the "fill-in-the-blank" situation. (And I'm not sure if that's from the Greeks or the Romans. *frown* Sorry, but the brain fog has only partially lifted.)

But anyhow, I think the implications are sublime.

Now, what was your question?

Love you all! (especially Ed Grim)
Stephanos
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7 posted 05-26-2007 04:14 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Hey guys,

I'm back in the states, with a baby boy, and a joy that words can hardly express.  I thought this thread would be as good as any to jump back in with.  


Ron:
quote:
Oh, and "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (emphasis added) is generally accepted as a reference to and harbinger of Jesus. It's a metaphor, not a direct allusion to language.


I agree with your reply to JIm, that the "fall" can't be equated with the advent of language, or something like that.  But if that's true, then the designation of God as "Logos" in John, and its allusion back to Genesis, should remind that there's something basic about God that is at least akin to human language.  I'm aware of what linguistic philosophers have observed, and that Brad would remind us that language (by its nature) denotes absence.  I'm certainly not suggesting that our "babel" language isn't just as frail, as we are in many other areas, but surely something about God corresponds to our speech, much more than impersonality, or absolute silence.  I can't help but think of what Francis Schaeffer meant when he coined the phrase "He is there, and he is not silent".  


So in the final analysis, I think the most traditional interpretation of the fall in Genesis, as the loss of moral innocence and spiritual grounding, is the best interpretation.  It bears out well in history as well, with our inability to live according to our own moral standards, and the nagging conscience and conviction to still try, in various degrees.    


Stephen.  
serenity blaze
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8 posted 05-26-2007 05:03 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Congratulations Stephan!

Many hugs to you and yours!
Stephanos
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9 posted 05-26-2007 05:41 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Thank you Karen.     

Stephen
 
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