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Passions in Poetry

Intelligent Darwinism?

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oceanvu2
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0 posted 05-08-2007 05:44 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi!  Per the suggestions of Stephanos and Drauntz, I put up these questions:

1.  How is atheism related to Darwinism?

2.  Was Darwin an atheist or a reporter?  I thought he was a member of the Church of England....

3.  If you took "intelligent design" away from Darwin, what difference would it make?

4.  Is "intelligent design" a Western notion, not debated elsewhere?

Any one up for the old thesis, antithesis, synthesis?  

Best, Jim


Grinch
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1 posted 05-08-2007 06:36 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


1 Darwinism or to be more precise the theory of natural selection gave Atheists an explanation of their disbelief. Atheists don't believe in a creator and Darwinism explains the diversity of life without the need for one.

2 Darwin was both atheist and reporter and just to confuse things was religious for part of his life too, the order was religious, reporter then atheist.

3 Intelligent design plays no part in natural selection or Darwinism, in fact it's the exact opposite so it wouldn't make any difference.

4 Intelligent design is the belief in a creator which isn't geographically restricted.

oceanvu2
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2 posted 05-08-2007 06:57 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Grinch!  Well, I guess that explains it all

One positive thing about certainity is that it's certain.

Best, Jim
Brad
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3 posted 05-08-2007 08:02 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I am certain of two things:

1. Darwin was right on the whole.

2. Darwinists (or evolutionists -- akin to gravitationalists or globularists) are wrong about something, somewhere, and sometime.
Stephanos
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4 posted 05-08-2007 09:17 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

oceanvu:
quote:
1.  How is atheism related to Darwinism?

2.  Was Darwin an atheist or a reporter?  I thought he was a member of the Church of England....

3.  If you took "intelligent design" away from Darwin, what difference would it make?

4.  Is "intelligent design" a Western notion, not debated elsewhere?


1)  I'm sure that atheism is not integrally related to Darwinism, since such a gradual process would still require God.  However, its advent (which is late in a long chain of gradualistic naturalistic explanations of origins, only being innovative by providing a scientific theory for its mechanism) was doubtlessly reared alongside general religious malcontent, and atheistic tendencies.  I can cite you many quotations to back that up.


So, yes atheism has been ideologically related to Darwin's ideas, but is not necessarily related.  Though I've tended to disagree with them, I know there are many Theistic evolutionists whose thinking I respect.


2)  I think it could be argued that he was a disgruntled churchman, as it were, during a time when church membership was simply a part of cultural practice, with or without the inward belief.  Of course I can't say for sure.  There are, however, writings which might support that idea.  Needless to say there is controversy surrounding the whole question of Charles Darwin's religious (or non-religious religious) beliefs.  


3) I don't understand this question exactly.  Though I think I might know what you're getting at ... it's unclear.  Could you rephrase / clarify / expand on it?


4)  Since the West is where most of the scientific activity of the world originated from, I think it is mainly Western, in the same way Darwinism is mainly Western.  Of course Darwinism is the big established orthodoxy right now, and ID the smaller and less organized, less funded, reformatory nemesis.  So it's no surprise that Darwinism as a Western idea, has had a wide and far reaching influence.


Brad:
quote:
I am certain of two things:


I am certain of two things:

1) Darwin was wrong on the whole (that the mechanism of natural selection has the explanatory power to give account for the complexity and diversity of life that we see)

though judging from his own ink he was much more agnostic and "hypothetically humble" than his later representatives.

2)  Darwinists (or evolutionists -- akin to gravitationalists or globularists) are right about something, somewhere, and sometime.
    


Stephen    

[This message has been edited by Stephanos (05-09-2007 12:09 AM).]

Essorant
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5 posted 05-09-2007 03:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

God is the Universe's head
Nature the body of the whole,
And Man its toe, swollen and red;
Thus goes the Universe's Soul.

oceanvu2
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6 posted 05-09-2007 05:43 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Stephen re:

"So, yes atheism has been ideologically related to Darwin's ideas, but is not necessarily related.  Though I've tended to disagree with them, I know there are many Theistic evolutionists whose thinking I respect."

This addresses the "synthesis" possibility.  There's clearly a record in the rocks, (and gaps, so far), which doesn't negate the possibility, probability, or actuality -- depending on the strength of one's stance -- that a Creative Impulse kick-started the whole works.

I once asked a Buddhist friend:  "What was there before the big bang?"  His answer was: "Something, right?"  So I got to thinking about that, and what I've come up with so far is that the something that was there before that is What Creates, and What continues to create.

I lean toward the synthesis, the Theistic Evolutionsist approach, a kind of Wonderful Blend.

Best, Jim
    



oceanvu2
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7 posted 05-09-2007 06:02 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Essorant:  re:

"God is the Universe's head
Nature the body of the whole,
And Man its toe, swollen and red;
Thus goes the Universe's Soul."

My goodness! I find myself agreeing with you in principle, if not in specific terminology.

PS, I put up a poem for you in the Critical A forum, (Grocery List) just to rattle your cage in a friendly way about the nature of poetics.  Take a peek?

Best, Jim
Ron
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8 posted 05-09-2007 10:00 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I once asked a Buddhist friend:  "What was there before the big bang?"  His answer was: "Something, right?"

That's a bit like asking, "What time was it before it was five o'clock?"

We live in a world wholly dominated by the passage of time, and our resultant faith in the religion called Cause And Effect would put most Christians to utter shame. We believe, with absolute conviction, that for every Effect there must be a preceding Cause. Few ever even try to question that conviction, and I suspect fewer still could actually imagine a world where Cause And Effect did not hold sway.

The word "before" assumes a universal time frame that, according to Einstein's equations, simply does not exist. Stephen Hawking was the first to realize that a rapidly collapsing singularity, when run in reverse motion, looks an awful lot like an explosion. And reverse motion, of course, is just another way of saying reverse time. We can't talk about anything before the Big Bang because, when time ceases to run linearly or perhaps ceases to exist at all, the word before no longer has any meaning. Time, as we know it today, only began flowing some fifteen billion years ago. And even today it doesn't flow quite so evenly as the human mind perceives it.

Hawking probably said it best (and certainly more succinctly) in 2005. When asked to explain why the question "What came before the Big Bang?" was meaningless, he compared it to asking "What lies north of the North Pole?"
Stephanos
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9 posted 05-09-2007 11:03 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
and our resultant faith in the religion called Cause And Effect would put most Christians to utter shame.


What do you know of Ron, that is uncaused, besides God?  Bring your Christian Theology into the discussion as well as your ponderings of intelligent fools (which even the smartest of us are).     You may accuse me of bringing humanistic ideas (such as a faith in Cause and Effect) into Theology, as a kind of foreign thing.  But even before the age of science, the apostle Paul said things like: "Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made".  Does this not involve something akin to an inference?  I don't think that Paley was so far off in his watchmaker analogy.  And in that sense, Hawkins is wrong, or at least unaccomodating to the nature of language.  It may make no sense to ask (in the sense of time alone) what came before the big bang.  But it surely makes sense to ask whether or not the wonders we see, were intended, or merely happened.  Time may, in eternity, be only a poor metaphor for something higher.  But whatever it is, it is not a negative.

Jim:
quote:
I lean toward the synthesis, the Theistic Evolutionsist approach, a kind of Wonderful Blend.


I can see that.  Though, I think there are things about evolutionary theory which make it dubious.  I don't, however, object to it on a mere theological basis.  

Stephen
Ron
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10 posted 05-09-2007 11:47 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
What do you know of Ron, that is uncaused, besides God?

Stephen, I'm not even sure where to begin. LOL. Maybe you should talk to Werner Heisenberg?

But, really, what I know of that is uncaused is exactly my point because what I know of depends entirely ONLY on what I know of. That's the whole problem with the way Jim's question was phrased. The human mind seemingly does not work well outside its own narrow confines, which is why much of modern science (especially relativity and quantum mechanics) is very, very non-intuitive. It just doesn't make sense! But that's a limitation imposed on us, on our own limited senses, not a limitation on the universe.

To again paraphrase Hawking (who was, himself, paraphrasing Einstein), God not only plays dice with the universe, but He sometimes throws them where they can't be seen.
Stephanos
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11 posted 05-10-2007 12:00 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
God not only plays dice with the universe, but He sometimes throws them where they can't be seen.



I get your point Ron.  I'm reading a book right now on Einstein.  Mind-blowing stuff.  

But I guess I can only reply that Hawkings was still surmising that God was doing something, in a very positive sense, hidden or not ... invoking both time and space and narrative into his playful paraphrase.


Stephen    

serenity blaze
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12 posted 05-10-2007 07:52 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

1.  How is atheism related to Darwinism?

It ain't.

2.  Was Darwin an atheist or a reporter?  I thought he was a member of the Church of England....

You could have left off the little um, "I thought he was a member of the Church of England"... It could be that Darwin, was a thinker who had ideas, and insufficient explanations--like so many of us do now? It is possible to recognize evolution and see the spark of creation of soul as co-existant. Now pardon me while I go scratch myself and swing from trees just because it is fun.

3.  If you took "intelligent design" away from Darwin, what difference would it make?

It would make a personal difference, in achievement of "faith"--I happen to think that the differences meld in the dissolution of "Id"--and mythology and the stories of religion are all hero journeys. *ahem* (I believe in "faith".)

4.  Is "intelligent design" a Western notion, not debated elsewhere?

I don't know. I have not traveled, although I have investigated different religions--they all require the aforementioned "leap of faith". I have noted though, that the happiest peoples I have met, never questioned, maverick style, these leaps of faith.

What I do know, however, is that if you call someone a "gimp" and tell that gimp he is cripple, and drum that "fact" into his head relentlessly "his" entire life, then what you have achieved is the creation of a "gimp".

Maybe.
Essorant
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13 posted 05-10-2007 11:51 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Oceanvu2

Yes, I did see your poem in Critcal Analysis.  Sorry I didn't respond. I was not sure what to say.
Stephanos
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14 posted 05-10-2007 12:13 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Essorant,

When have you ever been at a loss for words?



Stephen
Essorant
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15 posted 05-10-2007 02:34 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Alas, If we talked together in "real life", Stephanos, you would know how difficult and clumsy I am with words.
Grinch
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16 posted 05-10-2007 07:36 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch



quote:
I'm sure that atheism is not integrally related to Darwinism, since such a gradual process would still require God.


Stephen,

Why does natural selection require the existence of a god?

quote:
This addresses the "synthesis" possibility.  There's clearly a record in the rocks, (and gaps, so far), which doesn't negate the possibility, probability, or actuality -- depending on the strength of one's stance -- that a Creative Impulse kick-started the whole works.


I agree but it should be made clear that the record in the rocks isn't put forward to prove or disprove what kick-started natural selection - the fossil record is simply offered as evidence that evolution occurred during the time the rocks were laid down and that's as far as it goes. You're free to posit the notion that an intelligent designer created single celled animals and evolution by natural selection took over from there but that's contrary most religious beliefs and texts and definitely just as hard for this atheist to swallow.

quote:
There's clearly a record in the rocks, (and gaps, so far)


I had to comment on the gaps, they're often put forward as an argument against evolution when in fact they're simply evidence that fossilisation is a very very rare occurrence. To be fossilised a creature needs to die in an area where it's body will be covered almost immediately by exactly the right kind of mud of soil, where no scavengers or further movement can scatter the bones. Then the hard parts of the body such as bone and teeth have to undergo permineralization, a process where the bones are infused with mineral deposits, which dissolve and replace the existing structure to create perfect rock casts of the original bones. The odds against fossilisation are immense but lets make them less immense, lets say that one in a thousand was fossilised, given those odds out of a species that numbered one hundred thousand individuals only one hundred would be fossilised. That's one hundred fossils scattered across the area they lived, if that happened to be the USA that’s roughly two per state - it's amazing when looked at like that we find any fossils at all.

What the fossil record shows, even with the gaps, is the steady change within species which evolution by natural selection predicts and explains.

Huan Yi
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17 posted 05-10-2007 08:06 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Everyone’s going to find out soon enough
Carpe diem

.
Stephanos
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18 posted 05-10-2007 09:42 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Grinch,

no time to respond now ... Will have to get back to this when I can.  I'm going to China.


God bless all,

Stephen.

Brad
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19 posted 05-11-2007 03:14 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Why don't you drop by Korea?
oceanvu2
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20 posted 05-11-2007 07:03 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Ron:  Re:

"We live in a world wholly dominated by the passage of time, and our resultant faith in the religion called Cause And Effect would put most Christians to utter shame. We believe, with absolute conviction, that for every Effect there must be a preceding Cause. Few ever even try to question that conviction, and I suspect fewer still could actually imagine a world where Cause And Effect did not hold sway"

OK, maybe I'm one of the few, but I can readily imagine at least a subset of the "world" where cause and effect does not hold sway.  This is the realm (at least) of human creativity.  What "causes" an artist, mathematician, logician, theoligist, or grocery store clerk to see things in a way that haven't been seen before?  

It goes back to basics.  What "caused" an early human to notice that if you chipped flint, you got a sharp edge?  What "caused" early humans to outline their hands on a rock?  What "caused" the first painter to notice perspective?

For me, this causal element remains "What Creates,"  and it's darned mysterious.

I just put up some questions.  I have some opinions.  I don't have definite answers.

Best, Jim
Essorant
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21 posted 05-12-2007 01:05 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Carpe diem


Et noctem.

Kitherion
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22 posted 05-15-2007 12:21 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Hey Ocean! (Mwah! ^_^)

Intelligent Darwanism... what an oxymoron! Teehee, just kidding. But still, in order for natural selection to be, intelligent as you say ^_^, it has to have a driving factor, other than survival. I would quite happily still be a fish if it meant I survived (which, since we still have fish today, means that they did ^_^).

Love Me

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

serenity blaze
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23 posted 05-15-2007 05:59 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"nobody loves me..."

rwood
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24 posted 05-15-2007 07:19 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I thought natural selection dealt with the ability to adapt? True, a survival trait, but a very creative one. Such as, when faced with a predator turn green/blend in to the bushes. When vying for a mate, get flashy or do a funny dance kind of thing, much like people do, only some are less intelligent than wild animals.

How did the first one to ever manage such creativity find another? Make another? Meet another that would accept his or her "strange" ability? Hmmmm.

 
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