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Passions in Poetry

Is logic useful?

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oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
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0 posted 04-23-2007 04:29 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

A proposition set to the tune of "Oh Tannenbaum."

Oh Wittgenstein, Oh Wittgenstein,
Why is language such a pain?
     Canít we just say that in the main,
     Language is what shapes the brain?
Oh Wittgenstein, Oh Wittgenstein,
     Logic is so damned mundane.

Replies in doggerel earn extra points  
Drauntz
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1 posted 04-23-2007 05:26 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

One of the many functions of Brain, so It must be useful. But which life activities use it? all except writing poems.I guess.

Local Rebel
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2 posted 04-23-2007 07:16 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

<,'';[-!%)#())@+=``==/.,<"??,ol;,,[oik osajdg98e;lklkamkmgh ohejnjjkmkll,ls,dp[i8eikjksjpo-
Stephanos
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3 posted 04-23-2007 07:21 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

If poems had no logic, then the best of them would lose their force.  Syllogistic thought can be hidden quite well and still be present or implied.


oceanvu2
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4 posted 04-23-2007 08:10 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

OK, Logic can be a useful tool, but can it do anything other than confirm or refute what is already presupposed?  I wasn't so much talking about logic in poetry  -- or maybe I was, now that I think about it some more -- but whether logic can lead to anything new.

Jim
Drauntz
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5 posted 04-24-2007 12:04 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

in science, in medical diagnosis.
logic analysis brings out prediction. All management needs prediction and then plans.
serenity blaze
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6 posted 04-24-2007 12:17 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Hmmm.

Most of my best decisions (in retrospect) have been those that I made following my heart, and not my head.

I'll have to think on this'n.

And the longer I think? The more likely I am to be wrong.

With me? It's kinda like target practice or darts--I tend to hit the bull's eyes when I don't think.

But I'm an over analyzer.

I think.
Drauntz
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7 posted 04-24-2007 12:35 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

my dear serenity blaze

the poor boy needs extra point.  so I just pour out whatever in my mind. I am still thinking and thinking and thinking hard.
Stephanos
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8 posted 04-24-2007 01:28 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Karen:
quote:
But I'm an over analyzer.


Yes, but might not this be one definition of poor thinking?  


Excess thought muddles logicality.  It's kind of like when people try to answer a simple question by rambling.  You wonder what happened to their answer.  


Or to put it more simply, it is illogical to exclude emotions in decision making.  But we've all seen the other extreme as well ... those whose emotions are not tempered by their brains.    


Stephen
serenity blaze
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9 posted 04-24-2007 01:31 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I would like an example, because if I read you logically, you are arguing the same point twice, and not considering another resolution at all...

But I could be wrong. <--my disclaimer to save me from dogmatism.

Kitherion
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10 posted 04-24-2007 04:50 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Well, philosophers argue the exisistance of 3 dimensions/worlds/realms (whatever tickles your fancy) the physical, the spiritual/etherial/astral, and the logical... and many argue that during the destruction of the universe that only the realm of logic will be left...

So I guess, and for this I'm throwing a long shot, that without logic the universe couldn't really exist in it's origional capacity.

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

Brad
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11 posted 04-24-2007 08:34 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Huh?

Who argues that?

It's Dualism versus Monism.

Ontologically speaking, that is.

And we, the Monists, are winning!

(Please forgive me, Stephen.)

rwood
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12 posted 04-24-2007 11:32 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Logic helps
when you're not sure
because life is full
of the obscure

so dig a little
or dig a lot

it's illogical
to be not
oceanvu2
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13 posted 04-24-2007 04:06 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Rwood.  So far, you're the winner!

Jim


Stephanos
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14 posted 04-24-2007 05:29 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Karen:
quote:
I would like an example, because if I read you logically, you are arguing the same point twice, and not considering another resolution at all...

But I could be wrong. <--my disclaimer to save me from dogmatism.



Choosing a spouse is a great example.  Lean too much on intellect, or emotion, and you're probably in for it.  


Stephen
oceanvu2
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15 posted 04-24-2007 05:30 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hello Drauntz.

Re: "in science, in medical diagnosis.
logic analysis brings out prediction. All management needs prediction and then plans."

In science, logic is uselful in learning the "scientific method."  The "scientific method" seems to consist of making the same mistake over and over again until somebody else gets it right.

In medical diagnosis logic is a useful process of eliminating wrong answers until the right answer shows up.  But the right answer will only show up if it is already known.  

The trail of logic doesn't doesn't lead to anything new.  There seems to be another factor at work, variously labeled insight, or epiphany or enlightment.  The Eureka moment.

Now, logic can be used to test the validity of an insight and explain that insight to others, but logic doesn't lead to insight.

"logic analysis brings out prediction."

True-ish, but it doesn't lead to certainty except in the most mundane of circumstances, which I think was the notion that started this thread.  

If you drop a paperweight a thousand times, logical analysys can suggest with certainty that it will fall to the floor the next time you drop it, too.  At the same time, if a basketball player makes 20 foul shots in a row, logical analysis cannot predict with certainty that the player will make the next shot as well.  Too many variables, and this is only mildly complex.

"All management needs prediction and then plans."

Well, the Army Corps of Engineers predicted that they could control the flow of the Mississippi river, made plans, and even carried them out.  This history of the Mississippi flood control plan is the history of flooded cities.  

"The best laid plans of mice and men gang aft agley. -- Robert Burns  

In rereading the above, it occurs to me that I have entirely too much free time.

Best, Jim

[This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (04-25-2007 01:53 PM).]

serenity blaze
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16 posted 04-24-2007 05:54 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Stephan?

I have come to the conclusion that it has been a very chummy 33 year drug connection.

Lean on that.

But if you want logic:

a symbiotic dysfunctional functioning relationship, taking place at this very moment in the cesspool of the nation.

But okay. I'll just...bounce!
Kitherion
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17 posted 04-25-2007 12:52 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Karen...

Okay...

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

rwood
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18 posted 04-25-2007 06:35 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

smiles...

sometimes, what's illogical is more useful but then it becomes logical, yeah. I'm just always a day late and a dollar short to market the idea and someone else makes millions off of it.

how is it that the same ideas seem to take off at the same time when no one's shared anything, as if there's some type of radar or a virus?

it's logical to study trends, but illogical to take risks without a backup plan.

oceanvu2
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19 posted 04-25-2007 10:30 AM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Rwood  re "how is it that the same ideas seem to take off at the same time when no one's shared anything, as if there's some type of radar or a virus?"

As in Crick, Wilson, and Watson "discovering" the structure of DNA more or less at the same time?

Jung had some mumbo-jumbo about synchronicity. But then, he also thought that sitting in an "orgone box" would do more than improve your tan.

Jim
serenity blaze
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20 posted 04-25-2007 11:19 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Reg? Karen's back-up plan married her sister.



It ain't easy being me.

And about Jung? Don't criticize what you don't understand. And don't ask me to explain Jungian theory/analysis to you, because I know I don't fully understand it--I went nuts and ordered a stack of Edinger and James Hollis too.

That's why things are so peaceful around here.
oceanvu2
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21 posted 04-25-2007 01:51 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Serenity -- OK, I won't ask you to explain Jung to me.  I promise not to explain him to you, either.

You weren't sounding very serene, Serenity.  I admit I get a little snarky sometimes, but I'm really a sheep in wolves' clothing.

Everybody has to believe in something, and I believe I'm going to have a Bloody Mary.

Pax vobiscum,  Jim  

Oooh, and how do you get that humpty-dumpty thingy to come up?  I fall on my face so often I'd like to try it.
Edward Grim
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22 posted 04-25-2007 02:30 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"I admit I get a little snarky sometimes, but I'm really a sheep in wolves' clothing."

lol, if you're not careful they might start to like you as much as they like me. And that treads the fine lines of dislike. hehe

"Everybody has to believe in something, and I believe I'm going to have a Bloody Mary."

hahaha, ah, you crack me up Jimmy.


Have a celery stick on me. Cheers   - Ed

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Drauntz
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23 posted 04-25-2007 02:39 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Hi, oceanvu2
logic is seal between  bricks of thinking where only on bricks with solid definitions it stays. then on some of them a new  brick may lay upward again. The new brick may have no name but it is something new to the tower of human knowledge.

Neptune.....Discovered on September 23, 1846, Neptune is notable for being the first planet discovered based on mathematical prediction rather than regular observations...Wikipedia

there are more I am sure. I'll try find time to get some for you.

rwood
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24 posted 04-25-2007 03:02 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Jim~ You mean the info they stole from Rosalind Franklin's x-ray diffraction reports on DNA, which was the last bit they needed to put the puzzle together? Sort of, but more like...

One questions in their mind, "Why don't we have a sticky substance that sticks/pulls off/re-sticks?" A month later, damn if Post-its ain't every where as if someone's been reading your mind.

I've always liked the word "synchronicity."

Ha, orgone, whose fickle cousin is uranium?

You make me smile.


Karen~ Well, hon. At least it was your back-up and not your current plan. I canceled my plan hehehe. I'm now the charter member of my own single club. There's no I do's, dues, or don'ts put on ya by no one. Tho there is this viking that dresses up like a pirate and he sings karaoke. He seems 10 feet tall and he can clear a night sky for the moon. He also does Willies. (amateur Shakespeare plays) Totally off my path, but what the hell, my logic just got me all dressed up for nothing in the past.


 
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