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Is logic useful?
| Philosophy 101 |
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Is logic useful? |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
A proposition set to the tune of "Oh Tannenbaum." Oh Wittgenstein, Oh Wittgenstein, Why is language such a pain? Can’t we just say that in the main, Language is what shapes the brain? Oh Wittgenstein, Oh Wittgenstein, Logic is so damned mundane. Replies in doggerel earn extra points  |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
One of the many functions of Brain, so It must be useful. But which life activities use it? all except writing poems.I guess. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
If poems had no logic, then the best of them would lose their force. Syllogistic thought can be hidden quite well and still be present or implied. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
OK, Logic can be a useful tool, but can it do anything other than confirm or refute what is already presupposed? I wasn't so much talking about logic in poetry -- or maybe I was, now that I think about it some more -- but whether logic can lead to anything new. Jim |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
in science, in medical diagnosis. logic analysis brings out prediction. All management needs prediction and then plans. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Hmmm. Most of my best decisions (in retrospect) have been those that I made following my heart, and not my head. I'll have to think on this'n. And the longer I think? The more likely I am to be wrong. With me? It's kinda like target practice or darts--I tend to hit the bull's eyes when I don't think. But I'm an over analyzer. I think.  |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
my dear serenity blaze the poor boy needs extra point. so I just pour out whatever in my mind. I am still thinking and thinking and thinking hard. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Karen: quote: Yes, but might not this be one definition of poor thinking? Excess thought muddles logicality. It's kind of like when people try to answer a simple question by rambling. You wonder what happened to their answer. Or to put it more simply, it is illogical to exclude emotions in decision making. But we've all seen the other extreme as well ... those whose emotions are not tempered by their brains. Stephen |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I would like an example, because if I read you logically, you are arguing the same point twice, and not considering another resolution at all... But I could be wrong. <--my disclaimer to save me from dogmatism.  |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Well, philosophers argue the exisistance of 3 dimensions/worlds/realms (whatever tickles your fancy) the physical, the spiritual/etherial/astral, and the logical... and many argue that during the destruction of the universe that only the realm of logic will be left... So I guess, and for this I'm throwing a long shot, that without logic the universe couldn't really exist in it's origional capacity. "Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..." |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Huh? Who argues that? It's Dualism versus Monism. Ontologically speaking, that is. And we, the Monists, are winning! (Please forgive me, Stephen.) |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Logic helps when you're not sure because life is full of the obscure so dig a little or dig a lot it's illogical to be not |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Rwood. So far, you're the winner! Jim |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Karen: quote: Choosing a spouse is a great example. Lean too much on intellect, or emotion, and you're probably in for it. Stephen |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hello Drauntz. Re: "in science, in medical diagnosis. logic analysis brings out prediction. All management needs prediction and then plans." In science, logic is uselful in learning the "scientific method." The "scientific method" seems to consist of making the same mistake over and over again until somebody else gets it right. In medical diagnosis logic is a useful process of eliminating wrong answers until the right answer shows up. But the right answer will only show up if it is already known. The trail of logic doesn't doesn't lead to anything new. There seems to be another factor at work, variously labeled insight, or epiphany or enlightment. The Eureka moment. Now, logic can be used to test the validity of an insight and explain that insight to others, but logic doesn't lead to insight. "logic analysis brings out prediction." True-ish, but it doesn't lead to certainty except in the most mundane of circumstances, which I think was the notion that started this thread. If you drop a paperweight a thousand times, logical analysys can suggest with certainty that it will fall to the floor the next time you drop it, too. At the same time, if a basketball player makes 20 foul shots in a row, logical analysis cannot predict with certainty that the player will make the next shot as well. Too many variables, and this is only mildly complex. "All management needs prediction and then plans." Well, the Army Corps of Engineers predicted that they could control the flow of the Mississippi river, made plans, and even carried them out. This history of the Mississippi flood control plan is the history of flooded cities. "The best laid plans of mice and men gang aft agley. -- Robert Burns In rereading the above, it occurs to me that I have entirely too much free time. Best, Jim [This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (04-25-2007 01:53 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Stephan? I have come to the conclusion that it has been a very chummy 33 year drug connection. Lean on that.  But if you want logic: a symbiotic dysfunctional functioning relationship, taking place at this very moment in the cesspool of the nation.  But okay. I'll just...bounce!  |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Karen... Okay... "Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..." |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
smiles... sometimes, what's illogical is more useful but then it becomes logical, yeah. I'm just always a day late and a dollar short to market the idea and someone else makes millions off of it. how is it that the same ideas seem to take off at the same time when no one's shared anything, as if there's some type of radar or a virus? it's logical to study trends, but illogical to take risks without a backup plan. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Rwood re "how is it that the same ideas seem to take off at the same time when no one's shared anything, as if there's some type of radar or a virus?" As in Crick, Wilson, and Watson "discovering" the structure of DNA more or less at the same time? Jung had some mumbo-jumbo about synchronicity. But then, he also thought that sitting in an "orgone box" would do more than improve your tan. Jim |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Reg? Karen's back-up plan married her sister.  It ain't easy being me. And about Jung? Don't criticize what you don't understand. And don't ask me to explain Jungian theory/analysis to you, because I know I don't fully understand it--I went nuts and ordered a stack of Edinger and James Hollis too. That's why things are so peaceful around here. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Serenity -- OK, I won't ask you to explain Jung to me. I promise not to explain him to you, either. You weren't sounding very serene, Serenity. I admit I get a little snarky sometimes, but I'm really a sheep in wolves' clothing. Everybody has to believe in something, and I believe I'm going to have a Bloody Mary. Pax vobiscum, Jim Oooh, and how do you get that humpty-dumpty thingy to come up? I fall on my face so often I'd like to try it. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
"I admit I get a little snarky sometimes, but I'm really a sheep in wolves' clothing." lol, if you're not careful they might start to like you as much as they like me. And that treads the fine lines of dislike. hehe "Everybody has to believe in something, and I believe I'm going to have a Bloody Mary." hahaha, ah, you crack me up Jimmy. Have a celery stick on me. Cheers - Ed Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
Hi, oceanvu2 logic is seal between bricks of thinking where only on bricks with solid definitions it stays. then on some of them a new brick may lay upward again. The new brick may have no name but it is something new to the tower of human knowledge. Neptune.....Discovered on September 23, 1846, Neptune is notable for being the first planet discovered based on mathematical prediction rather than regular observations...Wikipedia there are more I am sure. I'll try find time to get some for you. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Jim~ You mean the info they stole from Rosalind Franklin's x-ray diffraction reports on DNA, which was the last bit they needed to put the puzzle together? Sort of, but more like... One questions in their mind, "Why don't we have a sticky substance that sticks/pulls off/re-sticks?" A month later, damn if Post-its ain't every where as if someone's been reading your mind. I've always liked the word "synchronicity." Ha, orgone, whose fickle cousin is uranium? You make me smile. Karen~ Well, hon. At least it was your back-up and not your current plan. I canceled my plan hehehe. I'm now the charter member of my own single club. There's no I do's, dues, or don'ts put on ya by no one. Tho there is this viking that dresses up like a pirate and he sings karaoke. He seems 10 feet tall and he can clear a night sky for the moon. He also does Willies. (amateur Shakespeare plays) Totally off my path, but what the hell, my logic just got me all dressed up for nothing in the past. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Drauntz. I still don't see how logic leads to the new brick. Isn't the mortar applied post facto? "Neptune.....Discovered on September 23, 1846, Neptune is notable for being the first planet discovered based on mathematical prediction rather than regular observations...Wikipedia" OK, but this too from the Wiki: "Neptune was discovered as the result of observed irregularities in the motion of Uranus and was the first planet to be discovered on the basis of theoretical calculations." Wasn't the important event that someone, actually several people, intuited that mathematical calculations could be used to predict the presence of something previously unseen? Again, isn't the rest post facto -- mathematical logic used after insight to verify the validity of the insight? More Wiki, because it gets curiouser and curiouser. "J. C. Adams of Britain and U. J. Leverrier of France independently predicted the position of Neptune, and it was discovered by J. C. Galle in 1846, the day after he received Leverrier's prediction." Not only does that darned syncronicity show up again but, as the above sentence is phrased, it calls into question the etymological use in this case, of the word "prediction." And there's that darned language thing again. Thank you for taking the time to provide serious responses. I truly appreciate your thought, and try to respond appropriately. Best, Jim |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Hmm, someone likes Wikipedia...  (Caution: Post hopping in progress) Edele... That's a new one. I must admit, I like Edster better. Mostly because it sounds like Teamster and since your name is Jim and Jimmy Hoffa was the leader of the Teamsters, I thought it'd be an appropriate moniker for you to give me. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Define insight for us, Jim? Preferably without throwing cause and effect out the window? Seems to me that logic isn't necessarily confined to what we can easily articulate. Logic is simply what the human brain does while we're looking. I think insight and intuition are examples of the same thing . . . except it typically happens when we're NOT looking. |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
What the hell is up with wikipedia???????????????????????????????????? Does everyone not know tht it is subjective to media veiwing???????????????????/?????????/???? "Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..." |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
It is fun to talk about this topic. oceanvu2, how about boiling kettle led to locomotive |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Brad! How about "Insight is a specific experiential event engendering the shock(the effect)which occurs when neural synapses connect in a way they haven't connected before(the cause). Logic is a process. Insight is an event. When child notices, outside the context of logic, that he or she is not the same thing as the grass, that's an insight, an experienced event. When an adult notices, outside the context of logic, that he or she IS the same thing as the grass (tat tvam asi)that's an insight, an experienced event. Happily twisting your words, adding my own and distorting your meaning, I mangle your quote: "Seems to me that logic is what we can articulate after the experience. Logic is what the human brain does while we're looking. I think insight and intuition are can ONLY happen when we're NOT looking." Here's an insight that just snapped my head up: I'm pontificating! I never thought before that that was going to happen, not to The Grand Equivocator! Blessings on thee, then, my children, and at least I gave it a shot. Best, Jim-Paul the First. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Drauntz. re "how about boiling kettle led to locomotive" Yup, I like that one a lot better. It's very logical! Hi Kith! Huh? Jim |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Jim, Brad is the smart one. I'm the cute one. I can certainly understand your confusion, though. Sometimes, I think even Brad forgets which is which. So, am I to understand then that you contend that events don't have antecedents? I sort of always thought that processes lead to events, and that it's often a bit subjective where one separates the two? |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi Ron! Sorry for the confusion. When I watch mythbusters, I can never remember Jamie or Adam wears the beanie... "So, am I to understand then that you contend that events don't have antecedents?" Nope. I was trying contend that a specific event, the insight/intuition event, doesn't have an antecedent. It's not a "truth," it's a contention. "I sort of always thought that processes lead to events, and that it's often a bit subjective where one separates the two?" Yup. Process does lead to events. The contention is that process doesn't lead to this particular event. Your proposition opens up neat new line of thought: the yin yang thing. In this thread, it can be looked at in one of its suggestions, that there's a little bit of truth in every lie, and a little bit of lie in every truth. I'm not married to my initial proposal or my current contention, just putting them up for the sake of discussion. There have been some pretty good refutations so far. In a discussion forum, the process seems to be the point, or is it vice-versa? Wish I could be more insightful... Best, Jim |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
 eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee OW Ron, you just became the cute one, again! LMAO |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Uh, I don't know the mythmakers (or mythbusters, see?), but did somebody mention scoobysnacks? Ron gets to wear purple all the time, and I'm stuck with those funky glasses. Hmmm, I guess I'm stuck with p- envy (or is that a different thread?). |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
shaking my head-- the visuals are gettin' to me  *ahem* To address the question, tho: How the hell would I know? I would ask for a free, thirty day trial period (for LOGIC, heh) but I can't write and think at the same time. And now, after reading the above post, I truly know I can't think. About much else. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Ah. So you do want to throw out cause and effect, Jim? You believe that Newton's Eureka moment with the apple, or Einstein's with the equivalence of mass and energy, could just as readily have happened to any Joe Schmoe on the street? Clearly, if there is to be no antecedent to insight then there can be nothing we can do to prepare ourselves for it. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Okay. I'll behave. But this brought up something that Joseph Campbell touched on in one of the Bill Moyers interviews. and I'm gonna have to search my DVD's too, 'cause I can't find the quote, so please forgive my faulty memory and paraphrasing. The conversation they were having was the difference between an epiphany and what is termed in more spiritual circles as a "peak experience." A peak experience, generally has some foresight and intent, whereas an ephiphany can occur more spontaneously, and is not necessarily deemed as a lovely experience. An epiphany, however, can be a result of horrible trauma beyond a person's control. Is that anything close to what you are saying Ron? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
frown... Okay, I couldn't remember the word. (That happens to me from time to time.) But Campbell and Joyce agreed that one word that distinguished an epiphany from a peak experience is that it must be "sublime." A word we usually take to mean "exquisite" and normally has a positive connotation-- but Joe pointed out that sublime does not necessarily mean "beautiful." I found this interesting--a "peak experience" would be more desirable as an affimation of what we had prepared ourselves for, whereas an epiphany, or "sudden insight" can be life altering, and horribly frightening--such as described in, for example, the visitation of angels in the Old Testament, or...terrible shocks, such as a an unexpected death in the family or even storms. sublime...yes, yes, she was. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Karen, I think what you are describing is something imposed upon us from without ... or if not "without", at least from someone or somewhere else. In which case, a logical deduction is not necessary, seeing we are being fed an insight that is someone else's. This is where "revelation" might come into play. It may sound spooky, but in reality it can be quite simple (in theory) as any form of communication. But I agree with Ron, that whatever it is, whether from oneself or someone else, insight has an antecedent source. It doesn't just pop up randomly. Stephen. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Jim: I just don't get it. How can you argue that intuition and insight are not a process? Perhaps logical formulae can be regarded as a formal intellectual exercise and intuition/insight can be considered an intellectual process (a "fuzzy" logic - intuitively making connections between phenomena and drawing conclusions from the same without considering all the data), but I'm unconvinced by your assertion that intuition/insight is an event. Since intuition and insight are typically applied to a particular problem, then the problem is the antecedent. All behavior - reflex and operant behavior - is preceded by an antecedent. The antecedent is the event, object, problem, etc. ... - not intuition/insight. I suppose the discoveries attained through the applications of intuition and insight are events as well. Consequences to the application of intuition or insight, if you will. The other Jim |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Hi All -- I think that some of you might have noticed that I suffer from IDD -- Intellectual Deficeit Disorder... To comment briefly on one or two of the great thoughts above: Other Jim: Yes, an implication of the proposal is that every insight is available to every Joe Schmoe, though some Joe Schmoe's might not know what to make of it. Somewhere in here is the makings of a wonderful Monty Python sketch.... I see the merit in arguing that Einstein's formal academic process of studying everything then known (or of interest to him) about physics, gave him a ground in which to make use of his insight. I wonder, and really don't know, what process grounded Ramanujan, or why Planck didn't get it in the first... Serenity: Thank you for pointing out the differences you see between "epiphany" and insight/intuition. With this new, and dare I say insightful, light, I'll be more careful. Passing thoughts: I don't wiki my references. All of this nonsense is in my head. I think of my brain as a jar of Prego spaghetti sauce. All kinds of ingredients are in there, including too much salt, and some ingredients I wish weren't in there at all. As a Freudian slip, I offer: "Freud was a seminal thinker." Next, but not last: I've been trying to avoid the rhetorical strategy of throwing "sand in the eyes of the bull," that one remembered from William Pirsig's "Zen and the "Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." And finally, my mind seems to make bizarre, if not particularly useful or insightful connections. This thread started out with a little satirical poem that was running around in my head. I've since been preoccupied with the start of another one: Out of the mythos and into the logos To Grandmother's house we go. Descartes knew the way To follow the sleigh Over the bounding snow-ow... Jimbeaux |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
"I suffer from IDD -- Intellectual Deficeit Disorder... " You're right Jim, you're stupid and Michael Jordan can't play basketball. Yeah I have IDHD (Intellectual Deficit Hyperstupidity Disorder). Coherent thoughts be damned! It's hereditary I think. My father has it in spades and his father was a lawyer too, so there ya go. Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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