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Kitherion
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0 posted 2007-04-20 12:50 PM



My heart goes out to all those who knew someone, or lost someone in the Virginia Tech massacre...
But, some thought on why this happened... or how to identify and stop this for recurring?

© Copyright 2007 Donovan - All Rights Reserved
Drauntz
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1 posted 2007-04-20 01:09 AM


good parenting!
Kitherion
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2 posted 2007-04-20 01:27 AM


Profound. Parenting doesn't control ones actions.
Stephanos
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3 posted 2007-04-20 01:33 AM


Kith,

I'm sure you would say that there is nothing that controls one's actions, except one's own will.  And yet we know that there are factors which help to shape the nature of one's will ... parenting being one reasonable answer.


Stephen

Kitherion
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4 posted 2007-04-20 01:36 AM


I understand that Steph, but still, ones parenting may support decisions, but still, during a stage of increased brain activity one doesn't really think back to what one's parents taught you (in some cases yes, but in most cases not... unless you have an exceptional memory )so, how would one identify something like this?

I know from my studies of psychology that the mere fact that he resented others, and was a loner would have triggered me off, but how do you find all the people that resent society?

nakdthoughts
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Between the Lines
5 posted 2007-04-20 06:40 AM


The world is more of a  "ME" world today without  much thought for others.

Outside influences can affect a person, the treatment of them etc... but the  first thing  to do is to  make sure your children, friends and relatives learn how to cope with comments from others and to learn to like themselves and not compare themselves to others.

Other than that I think that when the symptoms show up and a  child or adult  shows suicidal or dangerous tendencies as was shown in the case this week, individual freedoms have to  be put aside and the student should have been admitted for  psychiatric help and kept there or  kicked  out of the school although that couldn't keep him from doing what he did if he really was set free without any emotional help.

I can't believe that parents, friends, roommates or acquaintances didn't see something coming and I believe  some have said so..so why  wasn't the appropriate response taken in such  circumstances?

Only those who allowed him to be there know the answer to that.

LeeJ
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since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296

6 posted 2007-04-20 12:06 PM


I believe the world is loosing contact with reality...and reality has it, that what we do, think and feel, effects so many others.


ChristianSpeaks
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7 posted 2007-04-20 03:50 PM


Spend one day in a classroom and you will see how parenting effects children and the choices they make.

Dane

nakdthoughts
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Between the Lines
8 posted 2007-04-20 06:14 PM


ChristianSpeaks... I am teaching at an elementary level so I see it everyday...but it's not just parenting, it also includes the total environment and those that are friends and influences in a child's life.



Huan Yi
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since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688
Waukegan
9 posted 2007-04-20 06:31 PM


.

So who’s buying a one way ticket
to Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan?
Anyone for India?   How about Russia
or is it that there’s too much snow?
Father Stalin and Papa Mao
where are you now?


.

Drauntz
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since 2007-03-16
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Los Angeles California
10 posted 2007-04-20 06:42 PM


Sir Yi Huan, do you mean every body is bad or every head is bad?
Edward Grim
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11 posted 2007-04-20 07:45 PM


The world is as nasty as the news will let you believe. Remember, there's no story in Billy giving Suzy a flower. The news makes money off the bad so that's what they'll show you. Don't forget that.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Huan Yi
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Waukegan
12 posted 2007-04-20 08:19 PM


.


The world of man
has made major progress in its time.
That should be appreciated.

.

Local Rebel
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Southern Abstentia
13 posted 2007-04-20 08:37 PM


Young Edward, it's not that the news makes money off of what's bad -- it's that they make money from what WE buy.

If we buy 'flowers for suzy' stories -- then they'll surely be reported.

But, on a less cynical note -- the thing that we have to keep in mind is that it's a good thing that when a sociopath at VT goes postal it's news -- that means about 6 billion other people on the planet didn't go postal or get killed by somebody who did.

Edward Grim
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14 posted 2007-04-20 08:43 PM


"Young Edward, it's not that the news makes money off of what's bad -- it's that they make money from what WE buy."

If that's the case then, yes Kitherion, the world really is nasty.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

oceanvu2
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Santa Monica, California, USA
15 posted 2007-04-20 09:34 PM


Hi -- I don't think the question revolves around good parenting or other outside influences.  When you look at a mis-wired, sociopathic or psychopathic brain, you are looking at a profoundly biologically flawed individual.  It's nature, not nurture.

In this instance, it appears that fellow students, and at least one teacher, had the insight and courage to "invade the privacy" and report a deranged individual.  That these concerns resulted in no protective action of consequence is a horrific example of legal or collegiate authorities to move beyond PC cowardice and take preemptive action.

It is possible that the assassin might have been helped with brain chemistry assisting drugs in a regulated environment. It is also possible that nothing would work, in which case a long term regulated environment might at least have blocked the danger this dysfunctional human being  posed to others.

The "world" is really nasty, and has been since Cain bashed Abel on the head, if you are Biblically oriented., but this man and other  non-politically or religiously fanatical assassins (products of nurture) was, quite bluntly, just a nut job.  Statistically, they are going to turn up.

I mean in no way to justify the killer’s actions.  By his own failure to follow through with his awareness that he was seriously out of whack, as indicated by his earlier self-commitment to a psychiatric facility, he bears the full responsibility for this atrocity.  

rwood
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16 posted 2007-04-21 12:04 PM


Anguishing and nasty, hon. The heartache runs deep.

I have to agree with oceanvu2. The thing I hate: These killers are wolves among sheep and the schools or similar buildings offer them maximum advantage to victimize. Somehow, it's become heroic, in the minds of psychos, to pick the easiest range and the easiest targets. To instill fear where they've been cultivating their general hate of anyone and everyone?

Maybe it's me, but in the past it seems like these mental cases were driven by challenge. They seemed more calculating or in the least more "intimate" with their victims. Does that make sense? Not just randomizing.

New breed?

I don't know, but we can't live in fear. We can only reach out to those long suffering and help hold each other up when people like that hurt us.



oceanvu2
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17 posted 2007-04-21 12:24 PM


Just a quick thought:  "We're here to help each other out."  I think it's our only purpose.  

Jim

Denise
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18 posted 2007-04-21 06:38 AM


Nature, nurture, psychosis, evil, derangement, who really knows how much each element plays into the various individuals who commit such heinous crimes.

I think one thing that would have helped would have been if the Hippa laws didn't prevent the sharing of this guys prior troubling actions and mental health issues with his parents and the FBI. If so he may have gotten the help that he needed, perhaps, and he wouldn't have been able to legally buy a gun.

Another thing that would probably have saved most of those kids would have been if guns had been allowed to have been carried on campus by those licensed to carry them in the state. The deck is stacked against the "good guys" when only the "bad guys" have weapons.

Local Rebel
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19 posted 2007-04-21 04:35 PM


Yeah, they could've had a REAL (Deadwood) shootout then.  Cause nothing like that ever happened in the old (Tombstone) west.

And we should bring brothels back too.  If the poor guy would've just had a legal affordable outlet...

Once again -- let's all give up just a little bit more privacy and civil liberty in the name of security.  

serenity blaze
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20 posted 2007-04-21 08:23 PM


Smiling at Reb--

I wish I could remember the comedian who said it first, since I'll have to paraphrase and I'll prolly get it wrong--but it went something like this:

"We human beings are so arrogant, we tend to forget that we are tenuously surviving on a speck of dust barrelling through space, with other specks of dust barrelling through space. We go to work and act like we own pieces of it, and then, with smug superiority, when faced with our inevitable mortality, what do we do? We  buy more insurance."



Hope you are feeling better lovie.

Brad
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21 posted 2007-04-22 09:38 PM


So far, who has been blamed:

1. 2nd amendment supporters

2. gun control advocates

3. atheists

4. feminists

5. liberals

6. "Old Boy" producers (Great movie, I own a copy)

7. Asian pop culture (not just Korea)

And this:

“Well, who has created a situation ethics, essentially, zone of not being willing to talk about any of these things. Let me carry another example. I strongly supported Imus being dismissed, but I also think the very thing he was dismissed for, which is the use of language which is stunningly degrading of women — the fact, for example, that one of the Halloween costumes this last year was being able to be either a prostitute or a pimp at 10, 11, 12 years of age, buying a costume, and we don’t have any discussion about what’s happened to our culture because while we’re restricting political free speech under McCain-Feingold, we say it’s impossible to restrict vulgar and vicious and anti-human speech. And I would argue that that’s a major component of what’s happened to our culture in the last 40 years.”

--Newt Gingrich

What's happened to Newt? He used to be an inspiring speaker (Yeah, even for me.)

What can we say except that it's going to happen again. And again.

I wish I knew how to stop it but I don't.

The difference is that, looking at the above, nobody else does either.

Balladeer
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22 posted 2007-04-22 10:10 PM


Meaning that WASN'T a real shootout?

Back in the old West (under our current laws) badmen ride into town and just shoot everybody, avoiding the hard sourdough biscuits thrown at them by unarmed citizens.

Denise is right. The majority of these types of people show signs before they act. Under law, the school was not allowed to inform the parents of his paranoid or possible suicidal behavior without his approval. What kind of ridiculous law is that?

Kitherion
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23 posted 2007-04-23 12:31 PM


Well now ocean, you've opened up another huge debate. The fact that you imply that it was nothing more than an imprinted "nurture" ideology is something that I will not be inclined to agree with in anyway.

If you were arguing for nature, witing the confines of the nature nurture debate, then you might have a point. However, to say that a killer has an inborn trait to kill is nothing more than an insult [Like saying I have a natural inclination to my stuffed frog Suzie... strangly I do, but that's out of the question ] to people who have an intellectual capacity.

The issue, is that people are affected both by nature, and nurture, because the humnan indiviadual learns responses from it's environment, not simply by a single instinct...

Here's a question ocean:

By claiming that it is nature, are humans then nothing more than unsentient animals? I think that while humans may only be a higher form of life, in order to be sentient we as a species must learn from past expieriences...


P.S If you are going to use war to defend your statement about not leraning from past expieriences, then know: The only reason countries send their soliders to war is because the leader of the country has a small p... ... ... brain

Aurelian
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24 posted 2007-04-23 01:22 AM


It's always seemed to me that the whole nature/nurture debate leaves out a most important element: human free will.
It presupposes that we're just marionettes jerked around by either our upbringing or our genetics.
I don't doubt that some folks are either genetically or socially more predisposed to the sort of behavior we're talking about, but I don't think predisposition equates with fate - it's just predisposition.
And I think if we were to try and pass a bunch of laws to try and "fix" the situation, we'd just end up with a lot less freedom and the same problems we have now.

Edward Grim
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25 posted 2007-04-23 01:54 AM


"So far, who has been blamed:

6. "Old Boy" producers (Great movie, I own a copy)"


Why is Oldboy being blamed? I love that movie. Why do people always blame films for stuff like this?

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

oceanvu2
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26 posted 2007-04-23 02:42 PM


Re: "The issue, is that people are affected both by nature, and nurture, because the humnan indiviadual learns responses from it's environment, not simply by a single instinct..."

Sure, even crazy people are affected by their environment.  That's not where I was going, particularly.  I was trying to say that this particular person in this particular case seemed to have a faulty neural network, a physically bizarre set of synapses.  

"Here's a question ocean:

By claiming that it is nature, are humans then nothing more than unsentient animals? I think that while humans may only be a higher form of life, in order to be sentient we as a species must learn from past expieriences..."

My claim was that it was nature in this case, a biologically flawed brain.

Humans are sentient animals, which isn't always a good thing.  One large function of the brain is to solve problems.  If there is no real problem readily at hand, the brain tends to create one.  That's part of its job.  

One of the great made up problems is the notion that there is a ghost in the machine which somehow makes us a higher form of life.

"P.S If you are going to use war to defend your statement about not leraning from past expieriences, then know: The only reason countries send their soliders to war is because the leader of the country has a small p... ... ... brain"

I didn't make a statement about not learning from past experiences.  We learn some things from some past experiences, little or nothing from other past experiences, but for the most part, we don't even seem to experience our experiences. (Which is a whole other whole ball of wax and goes to the "What is reality" thread.

As to the war anology, which I didn't make either, "countries," -- a dangerous abstraction -- go to war for any number of reasons.  This doesn't mean I think that people are disposed to go to war through some function of the amygdala or hippocampus.  People seem to be so unwarlike that they have to have their "normal" brains seriously modified by forces such as Basic Training or some form of Sunday School. Nurture by wackos, or, as you call them, leaders.

I can readily understand anger, outrage, depression, and sorrow over -- it hurts!  But those are functions of perception.  This presents other overwhelming conundrums, probably not germane to this discussion.

Take comfort in what you can take comfort in, find peace where you can find it.

Best, Jim

Local Rebel
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27 posted 2007-04-23 05:00 PM


quote:

Back in the old West (under our current laws) badmen ride into town and just shoot everybody, avoiding the hard sourdough biscuits thrown at them by unarmed citizens.

Denise is right. The majority of these types of people show signs before they act. Under law, the school was not allowed to inform the parents of his paranoid or possible suicidal behavior without his approval. What kind of ridiculous law is that?



I also agree that people who are sociopaths often show signs before they become dangerous.  Not all of them obtain weapons and and shoot up universities though. Some become car salesmen, CEOs, Presidents, or seemingly function normally (although we'd tend to call them 'jerks')

If Virgina had merely followed Federal law he'd not been able to obtain weapons (legally).

I fail to see though -- why allowing professors and students to cary concealed weapons is the answer.  Then you're just making weapons more available and there will be more incidents.  There was a reason why the West stopped allowing side-irons.

Wouldn't a more sensible solution be to place non-lethal weapons under glass by fire alarms and extinguishers?  You can take down a nut and immobilize him without the risk of killing or maiming anyone.

Balladeer
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28 posted 2007-04-23 05:25 PM


No, reb, I wouldn't advocate arming students and teachers, either, although if I had to choose between a shootout and a massacre, you can guess which would get my vote.

Your thought of having weapons available under lock and key seems like a very good idea to me, although I can only imagine how difficult it would be to get that one passed....another big problem of ours.

There is one thing we DO agree on, though....bring back the bordellos!

Stephanos
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29 posted 2007-04-23 07:28 PM


oceanvu2:
quote:
One of the great made up problems is the notion that there is a ghost in the machine which somehow makes us a higher form of life.


It is not "made up" but very real whenever we are faced with question of either doing something beastly or holding to a "higher" course of action.  

A non-material standard of right and wrong, nobility, and soulishness, is necessary simply because it is present.  


Stephen

oceanvu2
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30 posted 2007-04-23 08:28 PM


Steven -- Soulishness and nobility may well exist for those who believe they exist, but I'm not sure they can be established by fiat.  Doesn't this get into an ontological discourse on metaphysics?

I apologize for opening up this line of thought in this particular thread.  Thank you for your response.

Brad:  It's all Grim's fault.
Grimster:  It's all your fault.

Jim

  

[This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (04-23-2007 11:03 PM).]

Kitherion
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31 posted 2007-04-24 12:57 PM


Hey Ocean...

I saw some typo's in my last message... sorry, I didn't type what I was thinking, pareital lobe functioning incorrectly ^_^, either that or my pre-motor cortex was screwed over my my mathematics finals...

So, since you are saying that the human mind is not a controlling factor, then I'm confused... (Not that it takes much for me to be confused) because you seemed to be implying that the response of humans to stressful situations is only what they have within their genetics... but I think that I might have read that wrong.

Last night, while I was getting ready for bed, I was thinking: what if the act of killing is a coping method (You know those things that Freud seemed so fond of) created by someone who is serverely stressed? Yes I do know that Zillman and Spiers said this already, but what if it was more than just a faulty neural pathway, or an over active amygdala? What if what Jung said was true: that the human mind is connected implicitly to the collective conciousness...

This means that the man could have been stuck within an alternate reality (as in a scitziod reality, not another dimension)and was almost, in a way, maybe ^_^ forced to do what he did?

Your thoughts?

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

Stephanos
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32 posted 2007-04-24 01:17 AM


quote:
Steven -- Soulishness and nobility may well exist for those who believe they exist, but I'm not sure they can be established by fiat.



I never said that they could be established by fiat.  Though I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.  I was simply suggesting that these kinds of questions are not trivial, or needlessly made-up problems.  The language of it is more descriptive than causative.


quote:
Doesn't this get into an ontological discourse on metaphysics?


Of course it does.  Isn't this a philosophy forum?    

quote:
I apologize for opening up this line of thought in this particular thread.


I personally think its relevant.  Becuase while many focus on the pscychological description of "how", I think there is still a very spiritual "why" to be explored, about the exacerbation of horror we're seeing.


Stephen.


  

Edward Grim
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33 posted 2007-04-24 01:37 AM


"Brad:  It's all Grim's fault.
Grimster:  It's all your fault."

Damn... I had no idea.


Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Kitherion
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34 posted 2007-04-24 04:43 AM


Hmmm, you have a point there Steph (I think I'm repeating this phrase too often...) and I agree, but still does psycology and philosophy not have the same root? And therefore are they not one and the same in the descriptions of actions (psychology becoming slightly more technical, and phiilosophy more arguementative...)

Love ME

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

oceanvu2
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35 posted 2007-04-24 11:43 AM


Kith -- "does psycology and philosophy not have the same root?"  Probably, and the both involve a gross amount of babble.  You don't EVEN want to see my doggerel on Freud and Jung.  Psychiatry and neurobiology seem like they might have something going for them.

Jim

Essorant
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36 posted 2007-04-24 12:49 PM


Philosophy: the love of wisdom


Psychology: the art of overcomplicating human nature.


oceanvu2
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37 posted 2007-04-24 03:57 PM


Essorant -- I think the practing psycologist has one overwhelmingly important function: he or she is trained in the skill or art of attentive listening.

This ability to pay attention, or, in a Buddhist sense, to be "present," is rare.

Very few people actually know how to listen.  Most listeners are preoccupied with formulating a response before a speaker has finished saying whatever is being said, or preoccupied by other distractions to be of any use.

Lots of other problems, too, including including the relationship of content to context.  For example, a listener who actually listens can attend a lecture about the ramifications of string theory on the unified field theory, or anything else, pay rapt attention, and come away without a clue.

So one gets to wondering whether the difficulty lies with the speaker's inability to speak with clarity, or in the attentive listener's lack of context in which certain types of content can be heard.

A training in psycology provides a provides a context for attentive listening to certain types of information, just as a training in theoretical physics provides a context for attentive listening to the metaphysical musings of contemporary physicists.

This notion also seems to apply to poety. Aside from the occasional Tom of Bedlam, or idiot savant, if one doesn't read poetry, one is not likely to be able to write poetry.

Briefly, Mom was right.  You've got to do your homework and then go clean up your room.  

Jim
  

Stephanos
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38 posted 2007-04-24 05:57 PM


quote:
but still does psycology and philosophy not have the same root? And therefore are they not one and the same in the descriptions of actions (psychology becoming slightly more technical, and philosophy more arguementative...)


By "spiritual" I wasn't limiting myself to philosophy, though many philosophical questions border upon spiritual things.  The diagnostic and prescriptive element of spirituality is what seems to be missing.


Stephen

Stephanos
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39 posted 2007-04-24 06:44 PM


(responding out of sequence here...)


Local Reb:
quote:
Once again -- let's all give up just a little bit more privacy and civil liberty in the name of security.


Yeah, but it's not that simple.  HIPPA is one example of something that has lost sight of its original goal.  I am a medical professional and I know the ridiculous extremes to which HIPPA is insisted upon.

It's hard to keep the balance between liberty and security in a world like this.  It's like a tightrope.  Neither side of the line holds more or less danger than the other.



Karen:
quote:
"We human beings are so arrogant, we tend to forget that we are tenuously surviving on a speck of dust barrelling through space, with other specks of dust barrelling through space. We go to work and act like we own pieces of it, and then, with smug superiority, when faced with our inevitable mortality, what do we do? We  buy more insurance."


I think that was George Carlin, if I'm not mistaken.  He was good at striking at human arrogance.  But I think in his scathing (but funny) social commentary, he wasn't careful enough to distinguish between arrogance and frailty.  Also, while he had some valid points, he was a nihilist.  His last comedy routine is called "Life is Worth Losing", and to say that it is depressing and bleak is an understatement worthy of an undertaker.           

Brad may tell me that atheism doesn't always lead to such an end.  But Carlin's did.  I just never could figure out why his social critique mattered in his own eyes, in light (or shadow) of his metaphysics.  Maybe it didn't.  Maybe that's the whole joke.  Maybe some clods of dirt are just pretending to think their opinion matters more, is more shrewd (and therefore better) than others.  


Don't get me wrong.  I don't share Carlin's sub-personal estimation of himself.  If he's only dirt, he's the funniest dirt I've ever heard.  Um ... at least when he's not talking so much "dirt".  The flow of profanity and negativity is unnerving.  But the man was really witty and talented.


Sorry to digress...

Stephen.

Kitherion
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40 posted 2007-04-25 12:35 PM


Ocean...

WHATS WRONG WITH FREUD????????????? Sorry, I tend to get a bit touchy with people bad mouthing him. I'll agree with you on Jung however, I continued reading his theory and much of it is metaphysics, so I got bored very quickly . But still, Freud does make some valid points, you have to agree.


But back to the topic (sorry about the sidetrack) as ocean said, the biggest skill that I learned, is that the psychologist does NOT complicate lifes problems and its not our fault that people believe otherwise. The whole point of being a psychologist is that you learn to listen, and thus become a coping mechanism for people who cannot (feel free to correct me Ocean) deal with lifes problems... except in the case of clinical psychologists in which case we will attempt to help because most psychologists, and students, are nosey busy bodies

But still, in a case like this, I think that most people who would kill 33, do not have a psyhological problem that can be dealt with by therapy. In this case I think having medication would have been a better option, because, in most cases such as the Virginia Massacre, the individual identity is almost destroyed, and the alternate takes over (if I must use simpler terms, bcause I want everyone to understand, not meant as an insult ) but, what makes it even nastier, is the fact that he realised his error and in the end committed suicide...

Sad Sad Sad

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

Edward Grim
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41 posted 2007-04-25 01:49 AM


Freud was a cocaine addict in love with his mother. Does that sound like someone you want to take advice from?

Just read his essay, UberCoca, if you can find it (it's rather hard to locate for obvious reasons.) He thought it was a miracle drug and prescribed it to all his patients, bloody genius that one.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Stephanos
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42 posted 2007-04-25 01:56 AM


Freud, despite his faults and some misguided notions, was very insightful.  Probably easily makes it into the "most influential thinkers on the planet" club.  You, as interested in film and art as you are (which taps into the deepest parts of the mind), should know that Freud's attestation to the power of the subconscious has truth.


Stephen

Edward Grim
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Posts 1154
Greenville, South Carolina
43 posted 2007-04-25 04:24 AM


"Freud's attestation to the power of the subconscious has truth."

Very true, very true.

I wasn't really criticizing him for being a drug addict, most of my favorite people are crackheads, hehe. It's the "in love with his mom" thing I'm not into, to be completely honest.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Kitherion
Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181
Johannesburg
44 posted 2007-04-25 06:51 AM


I'm starting another thread about Freud.

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
45 posted 2007-04-25 02:19 PM


'I think one thing that would have helped would have been if the Hippa laws didn't prevent the sharing of this guys prior troubling actions and mental health issues with his parents and the FBI.'

Um... I'm glad that my father, my employer, and the FBI don't have access to my mental health records. Aren't you?

Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154
Greenville, South Carolina
46 posted 2007-04-25 02:48 PM


"Um... I'm glad that my father, my employer, and the FBI don't have access to my mental health records. Aren't you?"

Amen to that...

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

rwood
Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793
Tennessee
47 posted 2007-04-25 03:41 PM


No, I can't say that.

Let them look at my records. I don't care.

I'm willing to open up any can anyone wants if it would help keep the one can of stalker/predator/rapist/killer worms away from me and my daughter, and others.



Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
48 posted 2007-04-25 10:12 PM


quote:
I'm willing to open up any can anyone wants if it would help keep the one can of stalker/predator/rapist/killer worms away from me and my daughter, and others.

To whom do you want to give the power to make those subjective judgments, Regina?

I certainly hope it's not someone who, having opened and examined those cans, decides that YOU should be kept away from your daughter and others? That's the power you're giving them, after all. Frankly, I'm not sure I share your apparent faith in the judgment of others.



Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA
49 posted 2007-04-25 11:06 PM


quote:
Um... I'm glad that my father, my employer, and the FBI don't have access to my mental health records. Aren't you?


I don't know where the line should be drawn.  But should HIPPA always apply when someone relates graphic fantasies of Serial Killing to their Psychiatrist?

I don't know the answer to this question.  But neither side can make the concerns of the other appear trivial by spouting one-liners.


Stephen.

rwood
Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793
Tennessee
50 posted 2007-04-26 12:25 PM


Ron,

After having had a stalker (who was hospitalized for attempted suicide, diagnosed with a severe mental imbalance, and had a history of predatory violations) I can tell you that changed my view of things, especially when the object of his obsession became my daughter.

"To whom do you want to give the power to make those subjective judgments, Regina?"

I want the power to know who's knocking on my door, inquiring upon my daughter. Fair is fair. Is this a good person/stable of mind making the inquiry? Or one that will terrorize her when she kindly declines advances, fixate upon her and make her responsible for his current confusions and depressions, who then subsequently and horrifically kills himself (and not without making sure she knew it, and if he could have gotten to her he'd taken her with him). Call it Mother’s Intuition, but the authorities wouldn’t operate or act on my intuition. They didn’t have any faith in my judgment, at first.

I’m responsible for protecting her and keeping her safe. I suspected something, acted on it, and I’m grateful I did, but there were powerless moments, accusations upon my bearing, and contention with how I handled things. Turns out, I was right about my “vibes.” I made a point to be there and I knew things would escalate into something I couldn’t handle alone anymore, let alone my daughter who was 15 at the time.

"I certainly hope it's not someone who, having opened and examined those cans, decides that YOU should be kept away from your daughter and others?"

If I was to ever be a danger or a threat to her life, yes, I hope someone would remove me. She'd deserve a better environment and so would all others who have to live in fear for their lives.

"That's the power you're giving them, after all. Frankly, I'm not sure I share your apparent faith in the judgment of others."

I have faith that all humans err. It doesn’t take someone with supreme judgment to know the difference between a metaphorical skeleton in your closet and a dead body or the real threat of one. God forbid it to be plural. But again, I can’t say that I wouldn’t want people knowing about my history if, in fact, I have a true need to know about theirs due to direct and very personal involvement.

Circumstances given: I'd say that I was the one who was misjudged, underestimated, exposed, and on trial for what I felt. Let it be. She's still with me.


Kitherion
Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181
Johannesburg
51 posted 2007-04-26 01:05 AM


Well, I take it that the world is actually really nasty... .... .... ....
And Rwood, you have my utmost awe for not beating the *+#@ out of the guy!

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
52 posted 2007-04-26 02:18 AM


More accusations:

1. Republicans

2. An English class syllabus.

3. Friday the 13th.

4. The devil.

Pinkerton finds comfort in the devil because he's far more afraid that it might actually be meaningless. Hitch sees all these endless accusations because it was meaningless.

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
53 posted 2007-04-26 01:01 PM


quote:
After having had a stalker (who was hospitalized for attempted suicide, diagnosed with a severe mental imbalance, and had a history of predatory violations) I can tell you that changed my view of things, especially when the object of his obsession became my daughter.

While I won't buy into persecuting people because of what we think they might do someday, I have no problem letting people face consequences for what they've already done.

quote:
I want the power to know who's knocking on my door, inquiring upon my daughter. Fair is fair. Is this a good person/stable of mind making the inquiry?

Cool. We don't need any new and potentially dangerous laws then, because of course you already have that power. All you have to do is answer the door and take an interest. Which, clearly, you did. When I was your daughter's age, trust me, I met a LOT of parents. And didn't always pass muster, either.  

Would it have changed your "vibes" at all, Regina, if his psychiatrist had given him a clean bill of mental heath?

rwood
Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793
Tennessee
54 posted 2007-04-27 09:56 PM


"While I won't buy into persecuting people because of what we think they might do someday,
I have no problem letting people face consequences for what they've already done."

Yes, innocent until proven guilty. Sound of mind until proven insane.  It's not a foolproof system, but I'm with you. Though I do believe that persecution isn't always the objective when dealing with those who display alarming patterns of behavior. Mental health is the most complicated and ignored factor of health and wellness. I'm as concerned about that aspect of well being as I am physical health.

"Would it have changed your "vibes" at all, Regina, if his psychiatrist had given him a clean bill of mental heath?"

My initial decision was based upon my daughter’s well being, maturity level, and her current stress load. She was in agreement with me. She wasn't ready for any boy to come into her life. I told him no, and I meant it. The vibes came when He never heard me, and I knew he wasn't deaf because he heard my daughter sing alright. She was in the church and school choir when all this developed. That was enough for me to believe he had a personal problem without having a professional's opinion.

"Cool. We don't need any new and potentially dangerous laws then, because of course you already have that power. All you have to do is answer the door and take an interest. Which, clearly, you did."

Yes, Sir. You're right, but I was especially interested in why I only have the power the law says I have. He was a minor. It's a different ballgame that no one wants to play. Records are sealed on minors and without proper communication and cooperation from his parents, things get very tricky, especially if those parents are well to do. It's not very loving to thy neighbor to deceive them by hiding a history and hoping their son's pursuits of someone's daughter will be normal, this time. Deception is deception. Basically they had prescribed for him a new life:  New boy, new neighborhood, new church, and new school. Side affects: New victim. I'm not without a heart. I know why they did it. No one wants someone they love to fall into a darkness they can't bring them out of. I was just determined that my daughter wouldn't fall with him. The whole thing was extremely bizarre and I had to take equal measures.

"When I was your daughter's age, trust me, I met a LOT of parents. And didn't always pass muster, either."

And look at you now.

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
55 posted 2007-05-01 03:34 AM


Right, I guess everyone's vision is colored by experience... I'm sorry, but I don't need my boss to know I took a bottle of pills when I was 14... and interestingly enough, I was just rereading a poem I wrote like 5 years ago with the line "and twist my arm- I'd like a gun" as the finale... Should I be entrusted to care for the sick, the elderly? Should my innermost thoughts and feelings serve to indict me?

(BTW- I'm so loving the anonymity of the internet right now. )

BTW, Stephen, I'm sure you know all health care providers are legally obliged to report any homicidal or suicidal inclinations in order to protect the pt/others. That's the easy part... what about when it isn't explicitly stated, and the therapist suspects? Or, as in this Virginia Tech case, the violent person refuses to seek treatment? I think that's probably more along the lines of what you meant.

I'm with Ron. Thoughts are thoughts, actions are actions. If we start to punish thoughts, Big Brother is watching.

Kitherion
Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181
Johannesburg
56 posted 2007-05-02 12:51 PM


But, to blame the devil would also take humans out of it... ... ...

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA
57 posted 2007-05-02 01:52 AM


quote:
to blame the devil would also take humans out of it...


Not at all.

In his dissent, the Devil is a collaborator, not a soloist.

"The Devil made me do it" isn't true.

"The Devil bade me do it" is more like it.


Stephen

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA
58 posted 2007-05-02 02:15 AM


quote:
BTW, Stephen, I'm sure you know all health care providers are legally obliged to report any homicidal or suicidal inclinations in order to protect the pt/others. That's the easy part...



That's not an easy one.

On the other hand, some people are interpreting HIPPA laws to mean that I can't tell a mother that her son is doing okay ... or throw a label in the garbage.  Can we turn patient protection into a ridiculous and paranoid extreme, practically speaking?


Stephen.

Kitherion
Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181
Johannesburg
59 posted 2007-05-03 12:54 PM


Another good point Stephanos, however, to bring the Devils inclination to a human stand point, what was wrong was that he disobeyed, rather than actually did anything heineously wrong. So does that mean that I we were to disobey, rather than actually do something wrong, we would be NASTY????

Love Me

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

XOx Uriah xOX
Senior Member
since 2006-02-11
Posts 1403
Virginia
60 posted 2007-05-04 11:20 AM


::smiles::    It's just you.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
61 posted 2007-05-04 06:14 PM


quote:
So does that mean that I we were to disobey, rather than actually do something wrong . . .

Are you really so certain you're capable of making that distinction?

Image a two-year-old told not to eat all his Halloween candy. Or a twelve-year-old told to only use the lawn mower when an adult is present. Or even an adult told to never drink and drive. I'm not sure we're always wise enough to be able to say that disobeying is necessarily distinct from actually doing something wrong. Sometimes, I suspect, it just seems that way to a less than omniscient mind.

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA
62 posted 2007-05-04 10:13 PM


Kith,

I think you should also consider the end of a process, versus the beginning.  Rebellion, sin, or whatever you might want to call it, always begins in such a way that appears managable and "reasonable" by its courters.  It ends in a much different way.


Stephen

Kitherion
Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181
Johannesburg
63 posted 2007-05-15 12:16 PM


True Steph,
However, the reason that one rebels mighgt not be all that evil - persay - and might be due to external circumstances. For instance:
Ever said something on hearsay, only to find out that you were so wrong, and then hurt someone by it?
By using that analogy, it is possible to justify wrong doing, even though, it might not be technically wrong due to the circumstances.

Love Me

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618
Statesboro, GA, USA
64 posted 2007-05-26 05:25 AM


quote:
Ever said something on hearsay, only to find out that you were so wrong, and then hurt someone by it?


But your example illustrates my point beautifully.  Care with words, and making sure that they are accurate and not-hurtful for the sake of hurting, is a great moral principle to strive for.  And "repeating hearsay" is called gossip where I'm from, and usually hurts others.  One may repeat heresay, and still clarify that that is what it is ... that further verification is required.

Another clue is how many times something has to be repeated.  If you find yourself repeating hearsay over and over, for the sake of the pleasure it brings, you are probably in the trap of gossip where it's not really about bringing reform or information, but about personal gratification.  We've all been there.  Just because something is common doesn't make it right, or really justifiable does it?

"The words of a gossip are like choice morsels;
       they go down to a man's inmost parts.
." (Proverbs 18:8)


Stephen

  

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