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Passions in Poetry

Is it just me... or is the world really nasty????

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Edward Grim
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since 12-18-2005
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25 posted 04-23-2007 01:54 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"So far, who has been blamed:

6. "Old Boy" producers (Great movie, I own a copy)"


Why is Oldboy being blamed? I love that movie. Why do people always blame films for stuff like this?

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
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Santa Monica, California, USA


26 posted 04-23-2007 02:42 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Re: "The issue, is that people are affected both by nature, and nurture, because the humnan indiviadual learns responses from it's environment, not simply by a single instinct..."

Sure, even crazy people are affected by their environment.  That's not where I was going, particularly.  I was trying to say that this particular person in this particular case seemed to have a faulty neural network, a physically bizarre set of synapses.  

"Here's a question ocean:

By claiming that it is nature, are humans then nothing more than unsentient animals? I think that while humans may only be a higher form of life, in order to be sentient we as a species must learn from past expieriences..."

My claim was that it was nature in this case, a biologically flawed brain.

Humans are sentient animals, which isn't always a good thing.  One large function of the brain is to solve problems.  If there is no real problem readily at hand, the brain tends to create one.  That's part of its job.  

One of the great made up problems is the notion that there is a ghost in the machine which somehow makes us a higher form of life.

"P.S If you are going to use war to defend your statement about not leraning from past expieriences, then know: The only reason countries send their soliders to war is because the leader of the country has a small p... ... ... brain"

I didn't make a statement about not learning from past experiences.  We learn some things from some past experiences, little or nothing from other past experiences, but for the most part, we don't even seem to experience our experiences. (Which is a whole other whole ball of wax and goes to the "What is reality" thread.

As to the war anology, which I didn't make either, "countries," -- a dangerous abstraction -- go to war for any number of reasons.  This doesn't mean I think that people are disposed to go to war through some function of the amygdala or hippocampus.  People seem to be so unwarlike that they have to have their "normal" brains seriously modified by forces such as Basic Training or some form of Sunday School. Nurture by wackos, or, as you call them, leaders.

I can readily understand anger, outrage, depression, and sorrow over -- it hurts!  But those are functions of perception.  This presents other overwhelming conundrums, probably not germane to this discussion.

Take comfort in what you can take comfort in, find peace where you can find it.

Best, Jim
Local Rebel
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27 posted 04-23-2007 05:00 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Back in the old West (under our current laws) badmen ride into town and just shoot everybody, avoiding the hard sourdough biscuits thrown at them by unarmed citizens.

Denise is right. The majority of these types of people show signs before they act. Under law, the school was not allowed to inform the parents of his paranoid or possible suicidal behavior without his approval. What kind of ridiculous law is that?



I also agree that people who are sociopaths often show signs before they become dangerous.  Not all of them obtain weapons and and shoot up universities though. Some become car salesmen, CEOs, Presidents, or seemingly function normally (although we'd tend to call them 'jerks')

If Virgina had merely followed Federal law he'd not been able to obtain weapons (legally).

I fail to see though -- why allowing professors and students to cary concealed weapons is the answer.  Then you're just making weapons more available and there will be more incidents.  There was a reason why the West stopped allowing side-irons.

Wouldn't a more sensible solution be to place non-lethal weapons under glass by fire alarms and extinguishers?  You can take down a nut and immobilize him without the risk of killing or maiming anyone.
Balladeer
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28 posted 04-23-2007 05:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, reb, I wouldn't advocate arming students and teachers, either, although if I had to choose between a shootout and a massacre, you can guess which would get my vote.

Your thought of having weapons available under lock and key seems like a very good idea to me, although I can only imagine how difficult it would be to get that one passed....another big problem of ours.

There is one thing we DO agree on, though....bring back the bordellos!
Stephanos
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29 posted 04-23-2007 07:28 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

oceanvu2:
quote:
One of the great made up problems is the notion that there is a ghost in the machine which somehow makes us a higher form of life.


It is not "made up" but very real whenever we are faced with question of either doing something beastly or holding to a "higher" course of action.  

A non-material standard of right and wrong, nobility, and soulishness, is necessary simply because it is present.  


Stephen
oceanvu2
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30 posted 04-23-2007 08:28 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Steven -- Soulishness and nobility may well exist for those who believe they exist, but I'm not sure they can be established by fiat.  Doesn't this get into an ontological discourse on metaphysics?

I apologize for opening up this line of thought in this particular thread.  Thank you for your response.

Brad:  It's all Grim's fault.
Grimster:  It's all your fault.

Jim

  

[This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (04-23-2007 11:03 PM).]

Kitherion
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31 posted 04-24-2007 12:57 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Hey Ocean...

I saw some typo's in my last message... sorry, I didn't type what I was thinking, pareital lobe functioning incorrectly ^_^, either that or my pre-motor cortex was screwed over my my mathematics finals...

So, since you are saying that the human mind is not a controlling factor, then I'm confused... (Not that it takes much for me to be confused) because you seemed to be implying that the response of humans to stressful situations is only what they have within their genetics... but I think that I might have read that wrong.

Last night, while I was getting ready for bed, I was thinking: what if the act of killing is a coping method (You know those things that Freud seemed so fond of) created by someone who is serverely stressed? Yes I do know that Zillman and Spiers said this already, but what if it was more than just a faulty neural pathway, or an over active amygdala? What if what Jung said was true: that the human mind is connected implicitly to the collective conciousness...

This means that the man could have been stuck within an alternate reality (as in a scitziod reality, not another dimension)and was almost, in a way, maybe ^_^ forced to do what he did?

Your thoughts?

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

Stephanos
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32 posted 04-24-2007 01:17 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Steven -- Soulishness and nobility may well exist for those who believe they exist, but I'm not sure they can be established by fiat.



I never said that they could be established by fiat.  Though I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.  I was simply suggesting that these kinds of questions are not trivial, or needlessly made-up problems.  The language of it is more descriptive than causative.


quote:
Doesn't this get into an ontological discourse on metaphysics?


Of course it does.  Isn't this a philosophy forum?    

quote:
I apologize for opening up this line of thought in this particular thread.


I personally think its relevant.  Becuase while many focus on the pscychological description of "how", I think there is still a very spiritual "why" to be explored, about the exacerbation of horror we're seeing.


Stephen.


  
Edward Grim
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since 12-18-2005
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33 posted 04-24-2007 01:37 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"Brad:  It's all Grim's fault.
Grimster:  It's all your fault."

Damn... I had no idea.


Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Kitherion
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Posts 179
Johannesburg


34 posted 04-24-2007 04:43 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Hmmm, you have a point there Steph (I think I'm repeating this phrase too often...) and I agree, but still does psycology and philosophy not have the same root? And therefore are they not one and the same in the descriptions of actions (psychology becoming slightly more technical, and phiilosophy more arguementative...)

Love ME

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

oceanvu2
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Santa Monica, California, USA


35 posted 04-24-2007 11:43 AM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Kith -- "does psycology and philosophy not have the same root?"  Probably, and the both involve a gross amount of babble.  You don't EVEN want to see my doggerel on Freud and Jung.  Psychiatry and neurobiology seem like they might have something going for them.

Jim
Essorant
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36 posted 04-24-2007 12:49 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Philosophy: the love of wisdom


Psychology: the art of overcomplicating human nature.

oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


37 posted 04-24-2007 03:57 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Essorant -- I think the practing psycologist has one overwhelmingly important function: he or she is trained in the skill or art of attentive listening.

This ability to pay attention, or, in a Buddhist sense, to be "present," is rare.

Very few people actually know how to listen.  Most listeners are preoccupied with formulating a response before a speaker has finished saying whatever is being said, or preoccupied by other distractions to be of any use.

Lots of other problems, too, including including the relationship of content to context.  For example, a listener who actually listens can attend a lecture about the ramifications of string theory on the unified field theory, or anything else, pay rapt attention, and come away without a clue.

So one gets to wondering whether the difficulty lies with the speaker's inability to speak with clarity, or in the attentive listener's lack of context in which certain types of content can be heard.

A training in psycology provides a provides a context for attentive listening to certain types of information, just as a training in theoretical physics provides a context for attentive listening to the metaphysical musings of contemporary physicists.

This notion also seems to apply to poety. Aside from the occasional Tom of Bedlam, or idiot savant, if one doesn't read poetry, one is not likely to be able to write poetry.

Briefly, Mom was right.  You've got to do your homework and then go clean up your room.  

Jim
  
Stephanos
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38 posted 04-24-2007 05:57 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
but still does psycology and philosophy not have the same root? And therefore are they not one and the same in the descriptions of actions (psychology becoming slightly more technical, and philosophy more arguementative...)


By "spiritual" I wasn't limiting myself to philosophy, though many philosophical questions border upon spiritual things.  The diagnostic and prescriptive element of spirituality is what seems to be missing.


Stephen
Stephanos
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39 posted 04-24-2007 06:44 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

(responding out of sequence here...)


Local Reb:
quote:
Once again -- let's all give up just a little bit more privacy and civil liberty in the name of security.


Yeah, but it's not that simple.  HIPPA is one example of something that has lost sight of its original goal.  I am a medical professional and I know the ridiculous extremes to which HIPPA is insisted upon.

It's hard to keep the balance between liberty and security in a world like this.  It's like a tightrope.  Neither side of the line holds more or less danger than the other.



Karen:
quote:
"We human beings are so arrogant, we tend to forget that we are tenuously surviving on a speck of dust barrelling through space, with other specks of dust barrelling through space. We go to work and act like we own pieces of it, and then, with smug superiority, when faced with our inevitable mortality, what do we do? We  buy more insurance."


I think that was George Carlin, if I'm not mistaken.  He was good at striking at human arrogance.  But I think in his scathing (but funny) social commentary, he wasn't careful enough to distinguish between arrogance and frailty.  Also, while he had some valid points, he was a nihilist.  His last comedy routine is called "Life is Worth Losing", and to say that it is depressing and bleak is an understatement worthy of an undertaker.           

Brad may tell me that atheism doesn't always lead to such an end.  But Carlin's did.  I just never could figure out why his social critique mattered in his own eyes, in light (or shadow) of his metaphysics.  Maybe it didn't.  Maybe that's the whole joke.  Maybe some clods of dirt are just pretending to think their opinion matters more, is more shrewd (and therefore better) than others.  


Don't get me wrong.  I don't share Carlin's sub-personal estimation of himself.  If he's only dirt, he's the funniest dirt I've ever heard.  Um ... at least when he's not talking so much "dirt".  The flow of profanity and negativity is unnerving.  But the man was really witty and talented.


Sorry to digress...

Stephen.
Kitherion
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40 posted 04-25-2007 12:35 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Ocean...

WHATS WRONG WITH FREUD????????????? Sorry, I tend to get a bit touchy with people bad mouthing him. I'll agree with you on Jung however, I continued reading his theory and much of it is metaphysics, so I got bored very quickly . But still, Freud does make some valid points, you have to agree.


But back to the topic (sorry about the sidetrack) as ocean said, the biggest skill that I learned, is that the psychologist does NOT complicate lifes problems and its not our fault that people believe otherwise. The whole point of being a psychologist is that you learn to listen, and thus become a coping mechanism for people who cannot (feel free to correct me Ocean) deal with lifes problems... except in the case of clinical psychologists in which case we will attempt to help because most psychologists, and students, are nosey busy bodies

But still, in a case like this, I think that most people who would kill 33, do not have a psyhological problem that can be dealt with by therapy. In this case I think having medication would have been a better option, because, in most cases such as the Virginia Massacre, the individual identity is almost destroyed, and the alternate takes over (if I must use simpler terms, bcause I want everyone to understand, not meant as an insult ) but, what makes it even nastier, is the fact that he realised his error and in the end committed suicide...

Sad Sad Sad

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

Edward Grim
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Greenville, South Carolina


41 posted 04-25-2007 01:49 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Freud was a cocaine addict in love with his mother. Does that sound like someone you want to take advice from?

Just read his essay, UberCoca, if you can find it (it's rather hard to locate for obvious reasons.) He thought it was a miracle drug and prescribed it to all his patients, bloody genius that one.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Stephanos
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42 posted 04-25-2007 01:56 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Freud, despite his faults and some misguided notions, was very insightful.  Probably easily makes it into the "most influential thinkers on the planet" club.  You, as interested in film and art as you are (which taps into the deepest parts of the mind), should know that Freud's attestation to the power of the subconscious has truth.


Stephen
Edward Grim
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43 posted 04-25-2007 04:24 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"Freud's attestation to the power of the subconscious has truth."

Very true, very true.

I wasn't really criticizing him for being a drug addict, most of my favorite people are crackheads, hehe. It's the "in love with his mom" thing I'm not into, to be completely honest.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Kitherion
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44 posted 04-25-2007 06:51 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

I'm starting another thread about Freud.

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

hush
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45 posted 04-25-2007 02:19 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

'I think one thing that would have helped would have been if the Hippa laws didn't prevent the sharing of this guys prior troubling actions and mental health issues with his parents and the FBI.'

Um... I'm glad that my father, my employer, and the FBI don't have access to my mental health records. Aren't you?
Edward Grim
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Greenville, South Carolina


46 posted 04-25-2007 02:48 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"Um... I'm glad that my father, my employer, and the FBI don't have access to my mental health records. Aren't you?"

Amen to that...

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

rwood
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47 posted 04-25-2007 03:41 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

No, I can't say that.

Let them look at my records. I don't care.

I'm willing to open up any can anyone wants if it would help keep the one can of stalker/predator/rapist/killer worms away from me and my daughter, and others.


Ron
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48 posted 04-25-2007 10:12 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I'm willing to open up any can anyone wants if it would help keep the one can of stalker/predator/rapist/killer worms away from me and my daughter, and others.

To whom do you want to give the power to make those subjective judgments, Regina?

I certainly hope it's not someone who, having opened and examined those cans, decides that YOU should be kept away from your daughter and others? That's the power you're giving them, after all. Frankly, I'm not sure I share your apparent faith in the judgment of others.


Stephanos
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49 posted 04-25-2007 11:06 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Um... I'm glad that my father, my employer, and the FBI don't have access to my mental health records. Aren't you?


I don't know where the line should be drawn.  But should HIPPA always apply when someone relates graphic fantasies of Serial Killing to their Psychiatrist?

I don't know the answer to this question.  But neither side can make the concerns of the other appear trivial by spouting one-liners.


Stephen.
 
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