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Passions in Poetry

What is truth?

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rwood
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25 posted 04-23-2007 06:42 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Ess~

Yep. I have to live with what you has to do.

Kidding aside, I had "That which we all." But that implied a blanket generality to me. And some people really do remove themselves or are removed from the world. I wonder if they are still affected by other's notions of "truth." The movie "The God's Must Be Crazy," and "The Village,"came to mind. Not sure.

Stephanos
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26 posted 04-23-2007 07:49 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Objective certainty--therein lies the trouble of morality.




But morality, like anything else, doesn't have to be 100% certain to be valid or useful.  It's still true that most cultures have a core of morals which are very similar.  Kind of like they are all getting very close to describing the elephant.  Whenever we come across moral rules in other cultures that we can't relate to, it is usually some isolated or hypertropied aspect of the Universal which governs us all.  We can usually understand the principle ... But we can't understand why it was applied the way it was, or why it was taken so far without the tempering of other moral principles.  


But even so, the bigger problem to me seems to be that people have seldom been able to live by even their own moral codes ... even the things that they ARE certain about.  It's not so much that no one is really sure about morality, or that it's all so fuzzy.  It's that what we do know has been often violated or left undone.  


That's why we can all be sure that we have sin (and therefore need divine mercy) ... our personal omniscience is not required.     
Stephen
serenity blaze
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27 posted 04-23-2007 08:11 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

and THAT is a very good thing!

oceanvu2
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28 posted 04-23-2007 11:33 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Grimly:  You're getting lazy

"Truth is something that can't be disproven."
  
Anything can be disproven. People make careers out of it.  St Augustine created an ontological proof of the existence of God. The number of ontological disproofs expanded geometrically from the monk, Gaunalon, on.  

   2 + 2 = 4
That's a truth.

   It's a very limited truth based upon the presumption that the common numerical scheme is the only on there is.  In a binary system, 2 + 2 = 10.


   The world is round.
That's another truth.

Nope, that's a lie.  Assuming you mean planet Earth by "the world," Earth is an oblate spheroid. That's like, kindergarden stuff.

   I can't sleep.
That's an unfortunate but useful truth.

If the above is "true," you're about to go postal.

Jim


Kitherion
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29 posted 04-24-2007 12:46 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Wow, serenity, if I had to do that I would have a few days/months/years less of my life ^_^. So if truth is subjective, what is to say that everything is not subjective then?

"Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..."

Edward Grim
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30 posted 04-24-2007 01:05 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

You're right Jim, I am getting lazy. heh.

"you're about to go postal."

What do you mean "about to?" I'm already pushin' the mail.


Ed

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Edward Grim
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31 posted 04-24-2007 02:42 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Truth is time covered in mustard gas.

What is true is what is in the past. Truth does not lie in the future because alas, things can change.

Truth:

I did post a reply before this one. Undeniable truth.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Stephanos
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32 posted 04-24-2007 07:24 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ed (If that's really you):
quote:
I did post a reply before this one. Undeniable truth.


So I guess you've never met a historical revisionist?    

Trust me, a postmodern insistence upon doubt is most certain, irrespective of the timeline.


Stephen  
serenity blaze
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33 posted 04-24-2007 08:09 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

As I stated in your reality thread, it is entirely possible for two opposing viewpoints to be equally "true".

and that's it! All I have to say.

Now I'm gonna go lie down.

I've been arguing all damned day.
Edward Grim
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34 posted 04-24-2007 08:16 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"Ed (If that's really you)"

Who else would it be, Steph? Body snatchers maybe. haha

Historical revisionist? You mean a historical manipulator? No, I don't know anyone in the government, lol.

"insistence upon doubt is most certain"

Well, I did say I posted something before my last post, that's uh... that's pretty definitive. Unless it's deleted and added to those 5 million emails that went "astray" in that white house incident; then I'd have a hard time proving it's true. I don't know. Did I mention I'm totally incoherent when sick?

"Truth is time covered in mustard gas"

Wow, I need to go lay down before I say something else that proves me to be mentally handicapped.

Arrivederci
Stephanos
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35 posted 04-24-2007 10:11 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
As I stated in your reality thread, it is entirely possible for two opposing viewpoints to be equally "true".



Wouldn't that make them partial expressions of one truth?  They are still dependent upon something outside of themselves, therefore not totally subjective.  Remember that it's also entirely possible for a viewpoint to be untrue, and another true.  Again, correspondence to an objective situation is what truth is about.  


Just thought I'd give you something else to argue about when you wake up.  


Stephen
rwood
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36 posted 04-25-2007 05:54 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

"Hmmm... so in essence you are saying that the truth is subjected to an individuals view? But then what is the point of being abnle to  discern right from wrong? I thought it was in order to find the truth..."

Morality doesnít seem to be to be governed by the truth, or pardoned from it. In fact, isnít morality more faceted than truth within the aspect of whatís accepted in individual awareness and application? Whatís right for me is wrong for you, yada yada, but we may agree on the real truth of the matter.

And the old, ďIf you donít have anything nice to say, donít say it (even if itís the truth.) Iíve never faired very well with that societal application of whatís right and good; in other words, Iím not a sales person or one to ask how something looks on someone unless they are prepared for the facts of the matter or an honest opinion. Most people arenít looking for that. They are looking for someone to validate what they think theyíre already right about, but I could be wrong, haha. And Iím not saying Iíd rip someone apart. I do have couth and tact, but even in the most frivolous of things such as: womenís shoes, Iíve had ladies ask me, ďDoes this shoe look too small?Ē Their foot could be popping out over the neck of the shoe like biscuit dough from a can, and they want me to say, ďNo, hon. Sexy! You are styling!Ē I narrow it down to minutes. How many minutes could she stand to look...that sexy...in that particular pair of shoes, which usually helps her decide. How do I know theyíre not...recreational? In the sense that they wonít stay on very long anyway?

good gosh, itís early this morning and Iím sorry for lettiní my ďbefore the pot of coffeeĒ mind have at it. Just so yall know: Iím so thankful for this forum. It keeps me wee little brain cells jumpiní. Iíve got a finite math test today, and Iíll be honest. I totally (the sum of all numbers) suck at math. No pity parties though! Iím gonna pass if itís the last math class I ever take.

one mo thang:

If we were to entertain the thought that weíre all mostly wrong about everything, the truth might get better press, but the importance of the truth seems to be overshadowed by making sure everyone knows how right one is and how wrong all others have always been.
oceanvu2
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37 posted 04-25-2007 10:13 AM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Rwood--  If you're right, you're right.  If you just think you're right, you're right. If you're wrong, your right. If you just think you're wrong, you're right.

I need coffee too.

Jim
kasey191
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38 posted 08-22-2007 01:02 AM       View Profile for kasey191   Email kasey191   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kasey191

i believe there is no undeniable truth.
There is only what you know and believe at the time, and that is always bound to change or shift forms.
truth is a day to day belief.
..in my opinion
Stephanos
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39 posted 08-22-2007 01:34 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I guess you can't even be sure of that then.  


Stephen.
kasey191
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40 posted 08-22-2007 11:06 PM       View Profile for kasey191   Email kasey191   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kasey191

Thats a life philosophy, not truth
Stephanos
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41 posted 08-22-2007 11:52 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

a life philosophy invariably falls under the category of "what you know and believe".  
kasey191
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42 posted 08-23-2007 01:06 AM       View Profile for kasey191   Email kasey191   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kasey191

and what i know and believe isnt necessarily a truth.
TomMark
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43 posted 08-23-2007 02:49 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Sun rises from east and sets down to the west.

Is this a truth? No, it is an opinion.

The truth is that the globe turns.
icebox
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44 posted 08-23-2007 07:51 AM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox



Truth is that which is accepted as valid beyond the need for belief.

Truths for an individual serve to frame that individual's life choices.  

A truth held in common by enough people becomes a part of the collective framework of a society.  

For an individual, if enough truths break down the individual's personality loses it cohesion and begins to disintegrate.  

For a society, if enough truths break down the framework of that society weakens and the society begins to disintegrate.

In both cases, a new set of truths are needed to form a new supporting framework.

For an individual, this process may lead to spiritual growth and higher understandings.  

For a society, the outcome can be more destructive.

A truth often reflects a vital need more than it reflects reality.   In an individual, the absence or breakdown of a specific truth may leave a void that quickly fills with fear and insecurity.  In a society the absence or breakdown of a specific truth may leave a void that quickly fills with anarchistic crowd reactions.  In both examples, the more the truth was valued the greater the reaction to its loss.

Often individuals are compelled to state personal truths as truths collectively held in common by all members of a society.  This serves to provide the individual with a much needed sense of security.  The belief stated above in this thread that sin is a truth, reflects such a need.
XOx Uriah xOX
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45 posted 08-23-2007 12:41 PM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

What is Truth?

Truth...is that which is constant.
  
It does not rise and fall...appear and disappear.

Truth does not change.

It is not affected by appearances and disappearances.

Truth is beyond thought.
  
Beyond concepts.

Beyond knowledge and ignorance.

Find that which is constant...
All else is phenomena.

Truth exists in the presence of phenomena.
Truth exists in the absence of phenomena.

Find that which is constant...  
That is Truth.

What is present prior to all else?
That is Truth

What remains when all else ceases to be?
That is Truth.
icebox
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46 posted 08-23-2007 02:12 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

Substitute Tao for the word Truth and you are on to something.

XOx Uriah xOX
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47 posted 08-23-2007 03:29 PM       View Profile for XOx Uriah xOX   Email XOx Uriah xOX   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for XOx Uriah xOX

substitute    ::smiles::
cokeiq
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48 posted 08-24-2007 06:09 PM       View Profile for cokeiq   Email cokeiq   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for cokeiq

Truth in the unchanging nature of the one who created us, God. Without God life is meaningless ... ... yet the worst of wars have been made throughout the centuries, even today in the name of God.
Is God evil and loving destruction or is it man who made God the way they want him to be?
Does that mean he does not exist because men shape him to whatever they want him to be?
Or are there really evil nations out there whom God does want destroyed? ... ...

Kitherion
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49 posted 08-27-2007 12:44 AM       View Profile for Kitherion   Email Kitherion   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Kitherion

Okay, sure truth should be logical, but it is not always so. But this imposes another question: does truth always mean right? Or does it simply imply that your moral concioussness relies on truth to conform to a subjective reality (in other words our conciouss could realise something and not "inform", so to speak, our real selves)...

Confusseled, confusseled
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