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Philosophy 101
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What is truth?
| Philosophy 101 |
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What is truth? |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Many a philosopher has tried to define truth... but I am yet to find a satisfactory definition, as they were all reliant on the times that they lived in and the definition changed as acording to rulers. So what really defines truth??? |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
GOD. |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Yes, to you God may be truth, but to others He/She (depending on your religion) might not be. I understand that the bible speaks about God being the "way and the truth and the light," but how do humans put this into perspective? |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
the Spirit. |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Please, and this is not me being nastty, but edit your responses so that they are at least a sentence or preferably a decent comment. And what about those who are not Christian? Do they recieve the "spirit", as you said, in order to understand truth? And what about people speaking the truth? The bible doesn't say that the spirit of God allows for people to continuously speak the truth. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I just thought of a great definition to start with: That which may be trusted. Stephen |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
You make a really good point... but now I will refer to the point that I attempted to make in my post about why everyone thinks Africans are black... people trust different things... |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
Christians or not, have many questions about the universe, the world, life, behave, the physical rules, the good, the bad, why the killing? Many where, when, what, why, how, and who is God? Who is real God? Why other gods, why Holy spirit and Jesus? Why other religions? Many, many questions. Where do we get the answer? The real answers are the truth. you post good questions. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
That doesn't make those thing equally trustworthy, hence your criticism of prejudice and narrowmindedness. Stephen. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The concept of truth is the relationship between a proposition and the world. "A frog is green" if and only if a frog is green. |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
I know that you are going to disagree with me, but I think that truth is only what is seen. I've seen in my life that God is real - so that is true. I've seen that people can be honest or not - that is true. I tend to gage truth on the emperical side. But that's me. I think that, like reality, truth is perception. Dane |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
truth is not perception. Is moon made of cheese? |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
perception is not without sense. Take American Idol as a case study. -Many people think that certian people on that show are the best singers they have heard. Does that make them good singers? Or is it that they percieve a certain person as a good singer making it true to them personally. Then you get to the idea of absolute truths and immediately we find out how many versions of absolute truths there are. Thus I retrun to the idea that truth is perception. |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
what sense? what is the limitation of it(them)? [This message has been edited by Drauntz (04-20-2007 04:25 PM).] |
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ChristianSpeaks Member
since 2006-05-18
Posts 396Iowa, USA |
common sense. the moon, in fact, is not made of cheese. |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
American Idol there is no truth there. there are only different opinions. the only truth here is the beauty of the music( or other kind of music) vibrates your ears and through brain makes your whole body feel good...who made the connection? this connection is same to everyone. who made it? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I'd define truth as the closest achievable reflection of reality. [This message has been edited by Grinch (04-21-2007 08:48 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Nodding with the Grinch, as that would make truth subjective to the perception of individual reality. This is why it is entirely possible for two opposing viewpoints to be equally true. (I'm thinking of the old analogy of the blindfolded men and the elephant, here.) |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I think there are two most important meanings to distinguish, that both betoken a manner of strength I. The original truth/troth: Strength, in respect to being faithful or trustworthy. II. The secondary "truth" (originally referred to with the word sooth): Strength, in respect to being correct or accurate. [This message has been edited by Essorant (04-22-2007 10:28 AM).] |
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ivordavies Senior Member
since 2007-01-10
Posts 739Chester, England |
there is no truth that all may see not even in reality for truth blows loosley on the winds of change and views and other things the one true truth that all can share is lies and truth come as a pair for what is true is also lies depending how perspectives rise. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
I believe Oscar Wilde got it right when he said: "The truth is rarely pure and never simple." If you look at courtroom truth, there are 3 dimensions to play with. "Tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth," this could be: 1. The truth you learned to master while out in the world. 2. The truth with nothing held back/out. 3. The meat only of the truth. What when why where and how. they can all be honest accounts containing facts, extractable by attorneys, heard and discerned by a judge and jury of peers (each with their own perception of the truth) who get to serve the sentence. It just stinks to be the guest of honor. People's perceptions are not free of the outside influence of others, so the truth can't be pure. The hard part for everyone, which I think is most defining of the truth: That which each of us have to live with. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
That which each of us has to live with. |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Hmmm... so in essence you are saying that the truth is subjected to an individuals view? But then what is the point of being abnle to discern right from wrong? I thought it was in order to find the truth... "Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..." |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Truth is something that can't be disproven. 2 + 2 = 4 That's a truth. The world is round. That's another truth. I can't sleep. That's an unfortunate but useful truth.  Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I can't sleep either. That would seem to be truth. But more precisely, I am CAPABLE of sleeping, but I am not at the present time. (I don't think so.) Objective definition and subjective definitions of sleep aside. The subjective truth is partial reality--granted. Morality further blurs the lines of that, as, say, using my analogy of the blind men describing an elephant, it is probably immoral in some cultures for one of the three men to feel the elephant's tail and describe, quite truthfully, that the elephant is thin and long. His assessment is no less true because of his limited access to assess what is the reality of the elephant. Objective certainty--therein lies the trouble of morality. I could be wrong though. Just adding that as a disqualifier might help me to stray from the error of objective certainty and then maybe I could sleep better. I'll go count my sins, instead of sheep. It's gonna be a long night and I ran out of sheep an hour ago.  Elephants, sheep, and deer. heh... *laughing* I think I'll go read and have some sleeptime tea. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Ess~ Yep. I have to live with what you has to do. Kidding aside, I had "That which we all." But that implied a blanket generality to me. And some people really do remove themselves or are removed from the world. I wonder if they are still affected by other's notions of "truth." The movie "The God's Must Be Crazy," and "The Village,"came to mind. Not sure.  |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: But morality, like anything else, doesn't have to be 100% certain to be valid or useful. It's still true that most cultures have a core of morals which are very similar. Kind of like they are all getting very close to describing the elephant. Whenever we come across moral rules in other cultures that we can't relate to, it is usually some isolated or hypertropied aspect of the Universal which governs us all. We can usually understand the principle ... But we can't understand why it was applied the way it was, or why it was taken so far without the tempering of other moral principles. But even so, the bigger problem to me seems to be that people have seldom been able to live by even their own moral codes ... even the things that they ARE certain about. It's not so much that no one is really sure about morality, or that it's all so fuzzy. It's that what we do know has been often violated or left undone. That's why we can all be sure that we have sin (and therefore need divine mercy) ... our personal omniscience is not required. Stephen |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
and THAT is a very good thing!  |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Grimly: You're getting lazy "Truth is something that can't be disproven." Anything can be disproven. People make careers out of it. St Augustine created an ontological proof of the existence of God. The number of ontological disproofs expanded geometrically from the monk, Gaunalon, on. 2 + 2 = 4 That's a truth. It's a very limited truth based upon the presumption that the common numerical scheme is the only on there is. In a binary system, 2 + 2 = 10. The world is round. That's another truth. Nope, that's a lie. Assuming you mean planet Earth by "the world," Earth is an oblate spheroid. That's like, kindergarden stuff. I can't sleep. That's an unfortunate but useful truth. If the above is "true," you're about to go postal. Jim |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Wow, serenity, if I had to do that I would have a few days/months/years less of my life ^_^. So if truth is subjective, what is to say that everything is not subjective then? "Our Father who art in Heaven... Hallowed be thy name..." |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
You're right Jim, I am getting lazy. heh. "you're about to go postal." What do you mean "about to?" I'm already pushin' the mail. Ed Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Truth is time covered in mustard gas. What is true is what is in the past. Truth does not lie in the future because alas, things can change. Truth: I did post a reply before this one. Undeniable truth. Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Ed (If that's really you): quote: So I guess you've never met a historical revisionist? Trust me, a postmodern insistence upon doubt is most certain, irrespective of the timeline. Stephen |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
As I stated in your reality thread, it is entirely possible for two opposing viewpoints to be equally "true". and that's it! All I have to say. Now I'm gonna go lie down. I've been arguing all damned day.  |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
"Ed (If that's really you)" Who else would it be, Steph? Body snatchers maybe. haha Historical revisionist? You mean a historical manipulator? No, I don't know anyone in the government, lol. "insistence upon doubt is most certain" Well, I did say I posted something before my last post, that's uh... that's pretty definitive. Unless it's deleted and added to those 5 million emails that went "astray" in that white house incident; then I'd have a hard time proving it's true. I don't know. Did I mention I'm totally incoherent when sick? "Truth is time covered in mustard gas" Wow, I need to go lay down before I say something else that proves me to be mentally handicapped. Arrivederci |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Wouldn't that make them partial expressions of one truth? They are still dependent upon something outside of themselves, therefore not totally subjective. Remember that it's also entirely possible for a viewpoint to be untrue, and another true. Again, correspondence to an objective situation is what truth is about. Just thought I'd give you something else to argue about when you wake up. Stephen |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
"Hmmm... so in essence you are saying that the truth is subjected to an individuals view? But then what is the point of being abnle to discern right from wrong? I thought it was in order to find the truth..." Morality doesn’t seem to be to be governed by the truth, or pardoned from it. In fact, isn’t morality more faceted than truth within the aspect of what’s accepted in individual awareness and application? What’s right for me is wrong for you, yada yada, but we may agree on the real truth of the matter. And the old, “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it (even if it’s the truth.) I’ve never faired very well with that societal application of what’s right and good; in other words, I’m not a sales person or one to ask how something looks on someone unless they are prepared for the facts of the matter or an honest opinion. Most people aren’t looking for that. They are looking for someone to validate what they think they’re already right about, but I could be wrong, haha. And I’m not saying I’d rip someone apart. I do have couth and tact, but even in the most frivolous of things such as: women’s shoes, I’ve had ladies ask me, “Does this shoe look too small?” Their foot could be popping out over the neck of the shoe like biscuit dough from a can, and they want me to say, “No, hon. Sexy! You are styling!” I narrow it down to minutes. How many minutes could she stand to look...that sexy...in that particular pair of shoes, which usually helps her decide. How do I know they’re not...recreational? In the sense that they won’t stay on very long anyway? good gosh, it’s early this morning and I’m sorry for lettin’ my “before the pot of coffee” mind have at it. Just so yall know: I’m so thankful for this forum. It keeps me wee little brain cells jumpin’. I’ve got a finite math test today, and I’ll be honest. I totally (the sum of all numbers) suck at math. No pity parties though! I’m gonna pass if it’s the last math class I ever take. one mo thang: If we were to entertain the thought that we’re all mostly wrong about everything, the truth might get better press, but the importance of the truth seems to be overshadowed by making sure everyone knows how right one is and how wrong all others have always been. |
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oceanvu2 Senior Member
since 2007-02-24
Posts 1066Santa Monica, California, USA |
Rwood-- If you're right, you're right. If you just think you're right, you're right. If you're wrong, your right. If you just think you're wrong, you're right. I need coffee too. Jim |
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kasey191 Junior Member
since 2007-08-16
Posts 33Australia |
i believe there is no undeniable truth. There is only what you know and believe at the time, and that is always bound to change or shift forms. truth is a day to day belief. ..in my opinion |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
I guess you can't even be sure of that then. Stephen. |
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kasey191 Junior Member
since 2007-08-16
Posts 33Australia |
Thats a life philosophy, not truth |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
a life philosophy invariably falls under the category of "what you know and believe". |
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kasey191 Junior Member
since 2007-08-16
Posts 33Australia |
and what i know and believe isnt necessarily a truth. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sun rises from east and sets down to the west. Is this a truth? No, it is an opinion. The truth is that the globe turns. |
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icebox Member Elite
since 2003-05-03
Posts 4383in the shadows |
Truth is that which is accepted as valid beyond the need for belief. Truths for an individual serve to frame that individual's life choices. A truth held in common by enough people becomes a part of the collective framework of a society. For an individual, if enough truths break down the individual's personality loses it cohesion and begins to disintegrate. For a society, if enough truths break down the framework of that society weakens and the society begins to disintegrate. In both cases, a new set of truths are needed to form a new supporting framework. For an individual, this process may lead to spiritual growth and higher understandings. For a society, the outcome can be more destructive. A truth often reflects a vital need more than it reflects reality. In an individual, the absence or breakdown of a specific truth may leave a void that quickly fills with fear and insecurity. In a society the absence or breakdown of a specific truth may leave a void that quickly fills with anarchistic crowd reactions. In both examples, the more the truth was valued the greater the reaction to its loss. Often individuals are compelled to state personal truths as truths collectively held in common by all members of a society. This serves to provide the individual with a much needed sense of security. The belief stated above in this thread that sin is a truth, reflects such a need. |
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XOx Uriah xOX Senior Member
since 2006-02-11
Posts 1403Virginia |
What is Truth? Truth...is that which is constant. It does not rise and fall...appear and disappear. Truth does not change. It is not affected by appearances and disappearances. Truth is beyond thought. Beyond concepts. Beyond knowledge and ignorance. Find that which is constant... All else is phenomena. Truth exists in the presence of phenomena. Truth exists in the absence of phenomena. Find that which is constant... That is Truth. What is present prior to all else? That is Truth What remains when all else ceases to be? That is Truth. |
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icebox Member Elite
since 2003-05-03
Posts 4383in the shadows |
Substitute Tao for the word Truth and you are on to something. |
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XOx Uriah xOX Senior Member
since 2006-02-11
Posts 1403Virginia |
substitute ::smiles:: |
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cokeiq Junior Member
since 2007-08-24
Posts 27 |
Truth in the unchanging nature of the one who created us, God. Without God life is meaningless ... ... yet the worst of wars have been made throughout the centuries, even today in the name of God. Is God evil and loving destruction or is it man who made God the way they want him to be? Does that mean he does not exist because men shape him to whatever they want him to be? Or are there really evil nations out there whom God does want destroyed? ... ... |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Okay, sure truth should be logical, but it is not always so. But this imposes another question: does truth always mean right? Or does it simply imply that your moral concioussness relies on truth to conform to a subjective reality (in other words our conciouss could realise something and not "inform", so to speak, our real selves)... Confusseled, confusseled |
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cokeiq Junior Member
since 2007-08-24
Posts 27 |
Truth is,what is ... ... when we see a liar who commited an act of grave misdeed we know this is really bad. "Christians" or other religious people are not exempt from these as we all already know too well that there are many reasons why a person goes to Church, religious place of worship etc. Following these routines does not tell much for it does not show the character of the person doing them and remember, people can lie, like all the time! Consider the 2 scenarios below: When a love one is dying and is spared of a horrific reality, eg. the daughter is a drug addict and not some good kid - This is quite different from a person lying to the Church about God and spiritual matters when he harbors a concubine, private jet plane and never believed in all the bible talk. It had only been a career ... ... and he realized that charisma and intellect were sufficient for him to play politics in religious matters. |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
So Coke, you are implying that moral conciousness has nothing to do with truth? How then does one come to a definition of truth in it's entirety? Or rather, can you say that what you define as truth is truth? That means that the truth is subjective, as you cannopt have truth without existing in an intrapersonal world, as morals exist in order to sort out the conflict which exists in the defining of truth. No man is an island... |
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cokeiq Junior Member
since 2007-08-24
Posts 27 |
Moral conciousness likens a branch from which the root of truth stems. Are we all like the blind men who went about feeling an elephant and one said it was rough and thick as he felt the skin, another said it was flappy and he held the ears etc. Of course if a person held the ears and said it was inflexible he is lying or has deficiency in his ability to tune out the correct signals from fingertips to cerebral cortex. But those that said what they felt were speaking the truth! Except that truth in it's whole is complex because like jigsaws to be connected, no one has all the pieces, does anyone? And to make the game more confusing, people do have agendas and lie when it suits them |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall" Professor Henry Jones . |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Since then, you are implying that intrinsic cognitive abilities are required for truth, how then would a mentally disabled child distinguish from a lie? I personally believe that truth is an abstract illogocal idea that stems from an external conciousness, thus allowing everyone to refer back to it in some way or another. And, to use your elephant example, the blind men still knew it was an elephant and although they considered it to be something different, it was still a sum of many parts. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. How would you distinguish “truth” from reality? . |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
John, It's not the complete answer, but "ought" gives us a clue that there is a truth which is not merely descriptive (ie, "is"). Stephen |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Reality may be distinguished as a manner of being. And truth as a manner of strength. |
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MegMeg Member
since 2007-05-14
Posts 85Virginia |
In class the other day my teacher brought up a point on history. That the past and history are two different things. The past is what has happened and nothing can ever change it and nobody can ever go back to it. And history was the written record of has happened. Because it impossible to write without your perspective in the writtings, we can never know what has actually happened unless seeing from an omnicedent point of view, which happens mostly in books. After him saying this i though it tied in nicely with the old saying, there are three sides to every story, the first person's point of view, the second person's point of view, and what really happened. The truth is what really happened or happens. It ties in with the history because when someone recorded an event or something in time, it was from their perspective. It is not wrong what they saw but you do no get the whole truth so you would not get the truth at all. 1/2 or 1/3 is not the same a whole. I guess plain and simply the truth is what really happens. Of course if you take into consideration, that everyone has a perspective and uses it, then noone could really define truth- alone, it would be the sum of all the defintions rolled into one great heaping ball of truths. "All that we see or seem |
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