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Passions in Poetry

Do we have fundamental rights?

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Christopher
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Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
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Purgatorial Incarceration


0 posted 03-08-2007 05:04 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher


I was asked that question in this thread and when I answered an unequivocal "no," Ron suggested a new thread, anticipating some disagreement.

What are your thoughts?
Edward Grim
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since 12-18-2005
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1 posted 03-08-2007 05:31 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Good question, let's look at the definition:

A fundamental right is a right that has its origin in a country's constitution or that is necessarily implied from the terms of that constitution. These fundamental rights usually encompass those rights considered natural human rights.

Some rights generally recognized as fundamental are:

Right to life
Right to marry
Right to procreate
Right to raise children free from
  unnecessary governmental interference
Right to freedom of association
Right to freedom of expression
Right to equality of treatment before the
  law (fair legal procedures)
Right to freedom of thought
Right to religious belief
Right to choose when and where to acquire
  formal education
Right to pursue happiness
Right to vote


I would say yes, we all have those rights except a few.

I would say no to "Right to life" because as long as euthanasia and abortion are around our "Right to life" isn't totally respected. Unborn children and dying elderly people apparently don't have that right.

In the 40's and 50's, people didn't have the "Right to freedom of association" because HUAC was targeting any "Communists" in America, mostly in the Screenwriter's guild. But that is not so today.

Other than the above, I would say yes that we have fundamental rights.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Essorant
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2 posted 03-08-2007 05:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I think Ed worded it well.
Christopher
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3 posted 03-08-2007 06:17 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I don't think Ed's right at any point in his post, up to and including the definition of a fundamental right.

Ron
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4 posted 03-08-2007 06:23 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Freedom


"A man can never take away your Freedom," he told me.
"They can only take power and make you pay a higher price
when you choose to exercise it."

...

When he finally continued,
Grandfather's voice was almost a whisper.
"It works both ways," he said, leaning closer,
his minty breath an envelope around my face.
"A man can never take away your freedom,
and a man never grant it either."

...

"But you must always remember that its Constitution,
and all the laws Congress has passed since then,
don't give you one bit more Freedom
than you already have.
Laws are made by men. Laws change.
Your Freedom is part of you. It's forever."



Edward Grim
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5 posted 03-08-2007 06:29 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"I don't think Ed's right at any point in his post, up to and including the definition of a fundamental right."

Care to say why, amigo...
Christopher
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6 posted 03-08-2007 07:05 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Very romantic, Ron, but it sounds more like a state of being to me than a right, which is something that has to be afforded to you by another or others.

Ed, I will, but it probably won't be until next week. Sorry.
Edward Grim
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7 posted 03-08-2007 07:15 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

lol, ok.


Oh and I got the definition from Wikipedia so you can take it up with them.

Have a nice weekend comrade

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Local Rebel
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8 posted 03-08-2007 07:36 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

What's the difference between a 'fundamental' right, and an 'inalienable' right?

Ron... I never knew you were an anarchist at heart

I enjoyed reading that -- and it's true -- we are 'free' to do whatever we can get away with -- but, that begs the question.
serenity blaze
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9 posted 03-08-2007 07:41 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Ed, they are ignoring you too.

Edward Grim
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10 posted 03-08-2007 08:01 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

It was only a matter of time my friend...

They only listen when I have my giant foot in my mouth. LOL

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Essorant
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11 posted 03-08-2007 08:52 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Fundamental" doesn't mean the same as "inalienable"

See here , particularily the literal meaning "pertaining to a foundation"

[This message has been edited by Essorant (03-08-2007 09:27 PM).]

Ron
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12 posted 03-09-2007 07:03 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Oh and I got the definition from Wikipedia so you can take it up with them.

When you quote a source verbatim and extensively, Ed, it's customary for a writer to cite the source and, on the Internet, provide a link. I'm sure you wouldn't want someone using your words and appearing to take credit for them.

quote:
Very romantic, Ron, but it sounds more like a state of being to me than a right, which is something that has to be afforded to you by another or others.

But that's exactly the point, Christopher. If it has to be afforded to you by another then it's a privilege, not a right. Driving is a privilege, and so, too, is voting. Working for another man, in the exchange of sweat for goods or money, is also a privilege in the sense that you can't claim it without another's agreement. Telling your boss what you think of him, however, is a right that none can deny you. You just have to be willing to pay the price.

Think of it another way. At what point would you stop trying to protect your child from physical harm? Is there a point at which the price would be too high to pay? Is it a privilege that can be given or revoked? Or is it a right you claim without reserve?

One of the biggest issues I have with current American thought, especially as it relates to Iraq, is that we have the power to free another culture. I don't think we do. At best we can lower the cost of exercising freedom, which is certainly something worth doing, but we can never give a man what he already has, and never lower the cost of claiming it to zero. A man who doesn't want freedom, who is unwilling to pay a price for it, can never be "given" freedom. It's always there, always has been there, but it must be claimed.

quote:
What's the difference between a 'fundamental' right, and an 'inalienable' right?

Good question, LR. While there's certainly a semantic difference, as Essorant points out, I'll readily admit that I'm treating them as interchangeable terms. A fundamental right can't be revoked.

quote:
Ron... I never knew you were an anarchist at heart

LOL. I honestly never thought of it that way, LR, but I guess maybe you're right, at least in some sense of the word.

While I don't believe in the absence of rules, I also don't believe that all rules are created equal. I think most Americans agree with me, else we'd probably still be paying an unjust tax on imported tea. I recognize no moral obligation to obey laws simply because they are laws, and indeed, think we are obligated to actively disobey any law we are convinced is wrong. Of course, that's where we start getting into murky depths very quickly.

When one man ignores the law, we have crime. When every man ignores the law, we anarchy. Somewhere in between there, and I honestly don't know where, we should find the genesis of Revolution. And while it inevitably carries an extremely high price, that too, is a fundamental right.


Edward Grim
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13 posted 03-09-2007 10:38 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"When you quote a source verbatim and extensively, Ed, it's customary for a writer to cite the source and, on the Internet, provide a link."

lol, ok sorry about that. The fact is that despite my youth, I am pretty ignorant to the workings of the computer (I still prefer my old Olivetti typewriter). So providing a link is not in my range of expertise, I can't even get the quote bars that everyone uses, lol.

"I'm sure you wouldn't want someone using your words and appearing to take credit for them."

Since it was a common definition I didn't think it'd be a problem. But here's where I got it from anyway (I don't know whether or not it will hyperlink but here it is anyway.   )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_right



Head Cheese & Chicken Feet
Edward Grim
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14 posted 03-09-2007 10:39 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Well what do ya know, it did hyperlink. Groovy...
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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15 posted 03-11-2007 02:34 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



What would Stalin's answer be . . .
Edward Grim
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16 posted 03-12-2007 11:43 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

I'd imagine he'd say something similar to:

"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas."

Oh wait, he did say that, my bad. Just replace "ideas" with "rights" and there ya go.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Huan Yi
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17 posted 03-13-2007 08:47 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


The reality is no document about rights
without the will to expend blood and or a bullet to back it
has proven worth the paper it was written on.


.
ChristianSpeaks
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since 05-18-2006
Posts 387
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18 posted 03-20-2007 03:50 PM       View Profile for ChristianSpeaks   Email ChristianSpeaks   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ChristianSpeaks

I agree with Yu.

The only way that "fundemental rights" work is if they lie in the construct of similar views. There are some in Baghdad that think it is their fundemental right to buy fruit without being blown up until someone who doesn't share that view walk up with a bomb straped to their chest.
Ron
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19 posted 03-20-2007 06:59 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
There are some in Baghdad that think it is their fundemental right to buy fruit without being blown up until someone who doesn't share that view walk up with a bomb straped to their chest.

No.

They believe (and I agree) they have a fundamental right to buy fruit (assuming someone else is willing to sell it.) They can choose to exercise that right or not, depending on the cost involved.

The potential for being blown up is the cost they must bear. You and I bear exactly the same cost for shopping, though we have managed to so far mitigate the cost with better law enforcement.

There will never exist a fundamental right to make others do something you want them to do. Not even when that something is to abstain from killing you.


Edward Grim
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Greenville, South Carolina


20 posted 03-20-2007 07:45 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Where'd Chris go? He still needs to explain what's wrong with my first post. lol

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

jbouder
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since 09-18-99
Posts 2641
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash


21 posted 03-21-2007 05:20 PM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Um ... the source of our "fundamental rights" in the U.S. is the Constitution.  Are you asking us whether the Constitution exists?  Put simply, fundamental rights are those rights deemed essential for the protection of society and, thus, the violation or restrictions of fundamental rights would be detrimental to society.  

In short, The U.S. Constitution exists.  Fundamental rights are granted to us by the U.S. Constitution.  Therefore, we, in the U.S., have fundamental rights.

Jim
Angel4aKing
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22 posted 03-21-2007 08:05 PM       View Profile for Angel4aKing   Email Angel4aKing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel4aKing

Depends on where you are doing your poles....
Check the Metropolotians one by one....

~~~kingsangel~~~

Edward Grim
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since 12-18-2005
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Greenville, South Carolina


23 posted 03-21-2007 08:14 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

The fact is that we obviously have fundamental rights. I think Chris just saw the leak in the boat and decided to jump ship.

And I agree with Huan, that no freedom is worth having if we're not willing to die for it. But luckily they have an organization for that specific purpose: it's called the military.
Ron
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24 posted 03-21-2007 08:20 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Jim, are you suggesting that America is the only country where anyone has fundamental rights?  
 
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