How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Philosophy 101
 Are women objects?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ]
 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Are women objects?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


125 posted 03-23-2007 10:53 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"LOL, clearly we're talking about two different things. Because if you think putting a sock on and brushing your teeth constitutes as wisdom then I have nothing more to say."

Yea, I'm talking in with an evolutionary context, wisdom being "younger" "simpler", and "growing up" in stages.  It doesn't just come in the shape of adult, complex, or academic.  

"then I have nothing more to say."

So be it.  

"And still you ignore my key points. Is it because they prove your theory wrong?"

No. I felt my earlier points addressed that direction already.  I get tired of me repeating myself too

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


126 posted 03-23-2007 11:36 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I think she would agree with me, Stephen. Sex is just sex. For my wife and I, the "special" part isn't in the motions themselves, it's in the concurrent emotions developed from our relationship.

For what it's worth, I can see how you would want to believe, within the framework you're operating from, that I just try to talk myself into a retroactive acceptance of casual sex, when that just has never been the case in my life. I've lived a very free sexual life, casual to the extreme in many cases. I have had and maintained many friendships that involved casual sex at some points. I won't deny that some friendships have unravelled following a night of relatively casual sex. I firmly believe that it wasn't the sex, however, that hurt the relationship, but the desire on one side or the other to change what was previously a plutonic relationship into one more intimate.

It may be that my experiences have given me a persopective that you can only guess at and assign emotions or justifications that you feel you might in the same situation. I can understand that - premises can only predict based on your own wisdom (intelligence + experience?), but will often fail in practice.

Soccer and sodomy? Are they they same? I won't suggest that we feel them the same, but at their base, they are equivalent physical actions done for enjoyment when there is no larger emotional connection.

I don't suggest, either, that sex can't be much more than casual, with a committed (not necessarily monogomous) relationship where people share deep feelings. It's an enhancement that's not to be ignored.
Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


127 posted 03-23-2007 02:06 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Sex is just sex, but it is intimacy that makes  sex "special."  Unfortunitly to little poeple these days realize that.

-Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


128 posted 03-23-2007 03:54 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim


["then I have nothing more to say."

So be it.]

I'm not letting you off that easily. lol I'm just kidding mate. I'm actually really enjoying our discussion.  

"No. I felt my earlier points addressed that direction already."  

Mmm, I don't think so. You didn't touch my "wise old southern dude" point (one that I think makes my case.) Nor did you go near my Kim Peek reference (which, in my opinion, shatters your "no one can be a knowledge processor" point.)


_____________________

Chris,

I can't really contest with what you're saying because that is your personal belief and I can't say otherwise. But it is my belief that I don't agree with your belief. lol. I guess we'll just leave it at that.  


Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 08-02-99
Posts 9130
Purgatorial Incarceration


129 posted 03-23-2007 04:36 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

And that's fine, Ed. I'm not trying to create any converts. I'm happy with who I am and don't feel remorse over my perspectives. The nicety of freedom is that it affords one the ability to make their own choices. I just like sharing my opinions.
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


130 posted 03-23-2007 04:48 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Now that... I do agree with. I, too, enjoy sharing my opinions.


Right on brother.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


131 posted 03-23-2007 08:11 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Christopher:
quote:
I think she would agree with me, Stephen. Sex is just sex.


Then she would feel okay about you having sex with someone else besides her?  If you say "no" then I'd say there's a problem with your view of sex.


quote:
For my wife and I, the "special" part isn't in the motions themselves, it's in the concurrent emotions developed from our relationship.
  

Then those mere "motions" could be had with anyone outside of your relationship with no objections from either of you?

quote:
I won't deny that some friendships have unravelled following a night of relatively casual sex. I firmly believe that it wasn't the sex, however, that hurt the relationship, but the desire on one side or the other to change what was previously a plutonic relationship into one more intimate.



It seems like you're contradicting yourself.  The definition of platonic (in the sense that you're using) is:  purely spiritual; free from sensual desire, esp. in a relationship between two persons of the opposite sex.  


Your response illustrates my point that those kinds of intimate emotions and desires (and hurts and disappointments) are part and parcel of sexual intimacy, by it's very nature.  I'm criticizing your view on the grounds that your expectation (that such an intimate act should be taken "casually", without complicating feelings) doesn't match reality.  


Is the fault the sentimentality of one partner, or the callousness of the other?  The sentiments correspond to sex, the callousness doesn't.  And that's my whole point.


quote:
I don't suggest, either, that sex can't be much more than casual, with a committed (not necessarily monogomous) relationship where people share deep feelings. It's an enhancement that's not to be ignored.


Only problem with that is, it is the nature of a woman (and a man, including you I'll bet) to desire monogamous commitment from a lover.  And problems arise when it is denied or ignored.  In what sense does "commitment" enhance sexuality, if it is not to avoid adulterous forays and maintain an exclusively special kind of love?    


JuJu:
quote:
Sex is just sex, but it is intimacy that makes  sex "special."  Unfortunitly to little poeple these days realize that.


True.  I never suggested that sex could not become (by a wrong view of things) "just sex".  I only suggested it represents a spoiled version of what sex was meant to be, and may help to spoil us in the process.  


More later,

Stephen.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


132 posted 03-24-2007 10:35 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


If sex were all
then every trembling hand
could make us squeak like dolls
the wished for words


Wallace Stevens


.
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


133 posted 04-07-2007 04:33 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

laugh.

Male bonding/communication is so interesting. The volley of argument and philosophies. One can sense the flex of male brain cells at work.

I like it when yall share things you normally wouldn't because it's either incriminating or makes you appear vulnerable. And when yall stress a point, wow. I don't know why, but it's just sexy and flattering to you as men...unless you see women as nothing but objects.

haha.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


134 posted 04-19-2007 07:47 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


'To be born woman is to know --
Although they do not talk of it at school --
That we must labour to be beautiful.'


Yeats


.
Drauntz
Member Elite
since 03-16-2007
Posts 2907
Los Angeles California


135 posted 04-20-2007 09:42 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

"if man treats woman like a queen, he will be a King. If man treats woman as a object, he will be a tool."
moondogz
Member
since 05-01-2007
Posts 396
Great White North


136 posted 05-21-2007 09:53 AM       View Profile for moondogz   Email moondogz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moondogz

yes unfortunately Juju women seem to be
going backwards instead of forward. It seems
to me that women's liberation has given way
to women's devolution. The role models for
young women today are who..Paris Hilton?
Maybe it's just what's in the media. Personally I feel that until we men experience some kind of spiritual awakening this will do nothing but continue. Depressing? Maybe.
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


137 posted 05-21-2007 11:39 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
Maybe it's just what's in the media. Personally I feel that until we men experience some kind of spiritual awakening this will do nothing but continue.


You may have a point dog, about the media. I'm starting to think that men aren't as big of a factor in this as I thought. Men can't ultimately "fix" this problem. Only women can. I'm starting to think that the objectification of women in the media can only be “blamed” on the women in the media. Women who present themselves in that fashion on television and in films are doing it on their own accord. No one is holding a gun to their head; no one is forcing them. The women in pornography, as well as the men in pornography, are there because they choose to be, want to be and/or agree to be. The scarcely dressed ladies in rap music videos are in those videos because they are being paid for it and they willingly do it, and possibly even do it for attention. Yes, a man dressed them like that and told them to move like that in the video, but the women are doing it on their own free will. If women stopped agreeing to be presented in such an inappropriate fashion in the media, they would cease to be looked at as objects. Their choice to be looked at like that is ruining the image of all women. We have a new generation that looks at ordinary women the same way as women in the media. We have these little dudes seeing women as objects because that’s what they hear in music or see on television and in movies. And we have these little girls who see women depicted in this fashion and think that it’s ok or think that that’s what expected of them. It goes back to good parenting.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

moondogz
Member
since 05-01-2007
Posts 396
Great White North


138 posted 05-21-2007 04:05 PM       View Profile for moondogz   Email moondogz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moondogz

Edward; yes u do make some very valid points. I was thinking about this just
a few minutes ago and thought how young people are being bombarded by sexual images
at a younger and younger age. When i was growing up in the 50's and 60's I was quite sheltered from this "brainwashing". The rap music scene and their disrespect for women certainly adds fuel to the fire. Also as you say women need to accept some responsibility. I don't think we'll be able to respect others until we respect ourselves.
Edward Grim
Senior Member
since 12-18-2005
Posts 1112
Greenville, South Carolina


139 posted 05-21-2007 07:08 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

quote:
thought how young people are being bombarded by sexual images at a younger and younger age.


I hear ya. I'm discouraged to a point of being angry with our current society.

quote:
I don't think we'll be able to respect others until we respect ourselves.


Couldn't agree with you more.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


140 posted 05-24-2007 06:47 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"I was beautiful. Now, because I am old, I take no shame in so saying."

Lillie Langtry


.
Drauntz
Member Elite
since 03-16-2007
Posts 2907
Los Angeles California


141 posted 05-24-2007 08:17 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

"you say that I am ugly?
but my mom loves me dearly."

Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


142 posted 05-26-2007 05:36 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Isn't it true that Maud Gonne caused Yeats much frustration in her resistence to his illicit sexual advances?


Stephen
Drauntz
Member Elite
since 03-16-2007
Posts 2907
Los Angeles California


143 posted 05-28-2007 04:16 AM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

To the original question.
Juju’s question probably has a yes answer.

God made Adam out off earth and Eve out of Adam’s rib and flesh. Woman is made to be soft and curved, quite different from man. Besides managing the garden, God told them to be fruitful and increase in number. So naturally, Man wants woman and woman wants man…for the numbers. The first crime Eve committed was something pleasant to eyes. So, later something pleasant to eyes is very important in earthly life.

When man watches a beautiful woman…she is seen as an object at first. Same as when woman watches a handsome man…as an object too at first.

What is the definition of beauty? I think that it is based on individual point of view.
latearrival
Member Elite
since 03-21-2003
Posts 4407
Florida


144 posted 06-03-2007 11:06 AM       View Profile for latearrival   Email latearrival   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for latearrival

Edward:
_____________________________________________"You may have a point dog, about the media. I'm starting to think that men aren't as big of a factor in this as I thought. Men can't ultimately "fix" this problem. Only women can. I'm starting to think that the objectification of women in the media can only be “blamed” on the women in the media. Women who present themselves in that fashion on television and in films are doing it on their own accord. No one is holding a gun to their head; no one is forcing them. The women in pornography, as well as the men in pornography, are there because they choose to be, want to be and/or agree to be. The scarcely dressed ladies in rap music videos are in those videos because they are being paid for it and they willingly do it, and possibly even do it for attention. Yes, a man dressed them like that and told them to move like that in the video, but the women are doing it on their own free will. If women stopped agreeing to be presented in such an inappropriate fashion in the media, they would cease to be looked at as objects. Their choice to be looked at like that is ruining the image of all women. We have a new generation that looks at ordinary women the same way as women in the media. We have these little dudes seeing women as objects because that’s what they hear in music or see on television and in movies. And we have these little girls who see women depicted in this fashion and think that it’s ok or think that that’s what expected of them. It goes back to good parenting. "
__________________________________________
Edward, you are so right here. Even eight year olds are speaking to young girls as if they were objects..They are learning so many
things  that I do not know how to show the light to them... thank you for understanding. martyjo

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


145 posted 06-03-2007 06:46 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Stephanos,

She is also reputed to have
joined in an event leading to the
birth of another child while lying
on the tomb of her first.

“Manners are especially the need of the plain.
The pretty can get away with anything.”

Evelyn Waugh


Since you brought it up

(-;

John

PS,  She was also in favor of Yeats’ proposed marrying of her daughter
but the poor girl was too intimidated by his notoriety then
to comsent.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


146 posted 06-05-2007 07:30 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


A Troubador's Song

"So through his eyes love attains the heart.

For the eyes are the scouts of the heart.
And the eyes go reconnoitering for what it would please the heart to possess.

And when they are in full accord and firm all three in one resolve,
at that time perfect love is born from what the eyes have made welcome to the heart.

For as all true loves know, love is perfect kindness which is born, there is not doubt, from the heart and the eyes."

- from Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth, Love and the Goddess.


.
Drauntz
Member Elite
since 03-16-2007
Posts 2907
Los Angeles California


147 posted 06-05-2007 07:43 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Sir Yi Huan

Typical man's view.

"woman views man as the object of bank, roof, and handyman. no poetic terms, sorry!!"
--me.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


148 posted 06-06-2007 06:39 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Juju,

Let’s approach this differently.
Are women symbols?

In asking the question I am deliberately
referring to the concept of the Eternal Feminine.

After all, how can we expect anyone to know us
as more than objects or symbols when we don’t,
(or even can’t),  know ourselves much better, our
upbringing and/or surroundings distorting a clear view?

Who are you that would have been true
born a hundred years or a millennium before or after?


John

.


PS

I know this strikes against the pride of being unique
and individual, yet is it so bad to be a current expression
of and within a good timeless continuum?


.



Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


149 posted 06-06-2007 07:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

No because symbols are not "agents" of active life, conciousness, choice, or action.  They are just tokens used to refer to things.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Philosophy 101 >> Are women objects?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors