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Passions in Poetry

Are women objects?

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Stephanos
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75 posted 03-19-2007 08:59 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Little pays respect? LOL. You may be right, Essorant, but I have a funny feeling any one of those hot babes could write a better sentence than that.


But Ron, fame, talent, and wealth, do not necessarily indicate that someone is wise or that they are choosing the best path.  (of course, it doesn't necessarily imply the opposite either)  Nor do such qualities in any way detract from Essorant's assertion that public modesty is a better approach than public sensuality.  So someone is worldly wise, intelligent, and shrewd ... still they may behave in such a way that encourages wrong thinking, such as they way Hollywood "stars" generally dress and flaunt their bodies.


It's still a reasonable statement to suggest that certain modes of dress exacerbate rather than help the problem of men objectifying women for lust.  Though the problem of lust (and wanting to be lusted after) lies deeper than that, in the heart.    


Stephen.  
Ron
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76 posted 03-19-2007 10:52 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
But Ron, fame, talent, and wealth, do not necessarily indicate that someone is wise ...

Essorant has little differentiated between wisdom and intelligence, Stephen, often using the words in the same breath or interchangeably. I believe success is a good indicator for intelligence. I also believe wisdom is a very subjective illusion.

quote:
So someone is worldly wise, intelligent, and shrewd ... still they may behave in such a way that encourages wrong thinking, such as they way Hollywood "stars" generally dress and flaunt their bodies.

Wrong thinking? Ah, you're talking about morality again.


Christopher
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77 posted 03-19-2007 11:53 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
... suggest that certain modes of dress exacerbate rather than help the problem of men objectifying women for lust.
So you're suggesting that men can't lust after women without objectifying them, that we're just dumb beasts who turn stupid the moment the mare's in heat?
Stephanos
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78 posted 03-19-2007 03:09 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
I believe success is a good indicator for intelligence. I also believe wisdom is a very subjective illusion



Why do you believe wisdom (and morality) more subjective than "success", which you spoke of with more confidence?


I am of the belief that though wisdom is always pursued imperfectly and mired in subjectivity with us (as a goal, and broken reflection), it is possessed fully by God, and therefore not merely an illusion.


quote:
Wrong thinking? Ah, you're talking about morality again.


Ah, and so I am ... at least partly.  And thus far I've found no convincing reason to dichotomize morality into a special off-limits category of human insight.  The greatest of thinkers have understood that wisdom, morality, and right living are linked, even if the strands cannot be traced with precision.  


quote:
So you're suggesting that men can't lust after women without objectifying them, that we're just dumb beasts who turn stupid the moment the mare's in heat?


I'm saying that physical lust as defined by sensuality without love or monogamous commitment IS objectification of the woman, by definition.  She is being used as an object of pleasure, without a view of personhood and soul.  What is the entire pornography industry founded on (other than money) but the dehumanizing and objectification of women?


I am making a distinction between proper sexual attraction, and "lust" ... even if that distinction is difficult to maintain in practice because of our sinful tendencies.  So no, not all sexual desire or action is lecherous or "stupid" as you put it.


Stephen  

  
Juju
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79 posted 03-19-2007 04:06 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

wisdom and intelligence....


Being smart is fine and dandy, but not being able to use it, that's a shame.  

I disagree with you about wisdom being subjective.  Wisdom is needed to succeed.  Whether its yours or an advisors.  It's something some poeple learn.  

Unless you meant it as an emotional widom... well I may agree with you there.  You may need to explain what you meant.  I am not sure about the context of what you said.
-Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Huan Yi
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80 posted 03-19-2007 09:42 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


"Wisdom is needed to succeed"

.

Juju,

That's not at all true . . .
History is replete with idiots
Doing quite well.


John

Juju
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81 posted 03-20-2007 12:40 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

"History is replete with idiots Doing quite well."

Whether it was their wisdom or someone elses it  is needed.  What they did once they got to top perhaps was was them not applying there wisdom correctly.  We are human and we make mistakes.   That cliche may seem funny, but wisdom differs from intellagence in the fact that knowlage is forever while application takes constant maintenance.  

Any business person here may know of the childrens book "who stole my cheese" or "where is my cheese."  basically about constantly learning how to make choices.

many of you may know of the bible teaching of the wiseman who built his house on the rock.  It was smart of him and his family to build the house there, but not wise of his wife and children to live on the beach because it was easier.  Eventhough they had a safeplace they almost died by not preparing and being wise about what they did.  

So wisdom John, needs to be maintained.

And I assume they failed.  Failure is measured in many ways. It most likely ended  something dear.  

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

rwood
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82 posted 03-20-2007 09:38 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

It helps to appreciate the many different sides of wisdom, ethics, and morals.

Practicality, for instance.

Among other things, some people try to own practicality to the point of foolish, unethical, and immoral degrees (by common assertion).

Still, most people feel itís wise to stick to the practical side of things because itís safe, but not always as fruitful as the impractical.

Example: Most people know that Life involves risk, blind faith, wild hairs, unorthodox-out of the box and completely crazy ideas that can facilitate progress or benefit all humankind through someoneís determination or utter insanity/genius. Visionaries? Dream chasers? Most people get that, until whatever it is they accomplish proves to be intelligent of origin and design. What if itís just entertaining to them or something they feel driven to do out of a need for change?

Damn, then the ďPracticalsĒ step in and take all the fun or merit out of it by trying to own the rights to their ideas, then marketing it to death, or theyíll figure out how to use it as a weapon. Thus showing the evil side of impracticality, but for some reason itís not seen as unwise, unethical, or immoral, because they are already the ones making all the rules about whatís wise, ethical and moral. Huh, ainít that some shizen?

So there is some merit to being a rule breaker: Faulty, yes, but just as faulty as always following all the rules, to me. Mistakes will be made no matter what.

No human has a cod-lock on wisdom and thatís a beautiful fact for me, thank goodness.

Does that keep us from trying to assert that we do? No.

Iíd like to assess that all women who possess a wild amount of sexuality are sexual objects, especially if they flaunt it, but thatís the faultiest thing Iíve ever written in judgment, BECAUSE:

You can cover a woman up from head to toe, never let her speak, touch, or look into the eyes of another man, make her walk 10 paces behind a man, and diminish her worth to the price of an ďuncleanĒ pig, and some men will still use her as a sexual object.

I donít give men enough power over me to decide whether Iím an object or not. I decide that. Otherwise, all men and women are damned if they do, damned if they donít by popular assumptions. Itís just not practical or wise to me, to place so much power on an idea that it dictates our behavior beyond belief. I'm just as guilty of that as the next person, but I'm gonna step out of the box and say that I think men and women are better at making their own choices than most people want to give them credit for. We just think we could always do it better or be better or are better at whatever it is at hand. I'll be the first to admit "I'm not smarter than a 5th grader" and my elders have forgotten more than I'll ever know.
Ron
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83 posted 03-20-2007 11:13 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Why do you believe wisdom (and morality) more subjective than "success", which you spoke of with more confidence?

I don't. Success is equally subjective, but it is also often (not always) more easily measured. In the context of Hollywood, it is MUCH more easily measured.

quote:
And thus far I've found no convincing reason to dichotomize morality into a special off-limits category of human insight.

Of course it's not off limits, Stephen. It is, however, very personal. It's between one person, one individual, and one god. Beyond that it is no longer morality, but just interference.

quote:
I'm saying that physical lust as defined by sensuality without love or monogamous commitment IS objectification of the woman, by definition. She is being used as an object of pleasure, without a view of personhood and soul.

What if you go bowling with a friend, Stephen? No love. No monogamous commitment. Aren't you using your friend as an object of pleasure, without a view of personhood or soul?

What makes sex different than bowling?

quote:
You may need to explain what you meant. I am not sure about the context of what you said.

Juju, it is the very indefinability of the word wisdom that I think makes it an illusion.

The dictionary goes from defining wisdom as an antonym for ignorance, which I'd be perfectly willing to buy, to tying wisdom to common sense, itself a term with little meaning. When most people use the word, it seems to take on magical properties. I don't believe in magic, thank you very much.

Your own use of the word, I think, is a common one. You appear to define wisdom as the application of intelligence, as knowing what to do in a given situation. To me, that's simply a combination of intelligence and experience. Your usage, however, relies on an after-the-effect definition of wisdom. If it turns out well it was wise, if it turns out poorly it was foolish. I think you are absolutely right to point out that a previously wise man can in turn do very foolish things, which to me suggest he was never really wise at all. He was just damn lucky.


LeeJ
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84 posted 03-20-2007 01:14 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Rwood's Quote

I donít give men enough power over me to decide whether Iím an object or not. I decide that.


Here here!!!!!!!! And then you go on to say


Otherwise, all men and women are damned if they do, damned if they donít by popular assumptions. Itís just not practical or wise to me, to place so much power on an idea that it dictates our behavior beyond belief. I'm just as guilty of that as the next person, but I'm gonna step out of the box and say that I think men and women are better at making their own choices than most people want to give them credit for. We just think we could always do it better or be better or are better at whatever it is at hand. I'll be the first to admit "I'm not smarter than a 5th grader" and my elders have forgotten more than I'll ever know.


AMEN Sista
Juju
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85 posted 03-20-2007 02:52 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Ron,

"Your own use of the word, I think, is a common one. You appear to define wisdom as the application of intelligence, as knowing what to do in a given situation. To me, that's simply a combination of intelligence and experience. "

NO...  experience may help some one build their wisdom, but I believe wisdom and experience are different. Experience is knowlage; something learned.  

Wisdom is the ability to use your intelligence and plan out decisions.  In my example of the wise man, He new that rivers or seas may flood.  He also new that sand wont hold a structure.  So even if it meant more work, he built the house on high ground, and on a rock.  that was wisdom.  

Just because someone makes a mistake, doesn't mean it was foolish. What would be foolish is if it the person relied on that one thing to happen. Then they are relying on luck.  I do agree with you there.  One mistake wont make someone a fool, relying on luck does.

Lee:

true.  I have come to realise that letting it get to me makes the problem worse.  There will always be some guys that use and women that want to be used and vise versa.  Instead I should work on having poeple appreciate who I am as a person.  

by the way I don't believe that being attracted to someone is treating as an object.  to me an object is something with out life.  

my reasoning why I felt that way is that the top videos on youtube is girls shaken there booty in there undies and current events.  and my question was not full enough.  perhaps I should have meant society, because it seems like some women treat themselves like they want to be used  

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Essorant
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86 posted 03-20-2007 06:31 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Wisdom" and"intelligence" both betoken knowledge and judgement and the practicing, and practicing well thereof.  There is no reason or need whatsoever to treat these words as if they mean different, unlike, or seperate things from each other.  Indeed, they have different etymologies, but their meanings betoken the same important things.

Ron
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87 posted 03-20-2007 06:39 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
In my example of the wise man, He knew that rivers or seas may flood.  He also knew that sand wont hold a structure.  So even if it meant more work, he built the house on high ground, and on a rock. that was wisdom.

No, Juju, that was knowledge. As your own words attest.    

BTW, do you know the rest of the story? Three years down the road there was this massive 8.2 earthquake that pretty much swallowed the man's house whole. Not to be discouraged, he moved to the desert, a thousand miles from any fault line, a thousand miles from the nearest body of water. He rebuilt his house. On sand.    

quote:
"Wisdom" and"intelligence" both betoken knowledge and judgement and the practicing, and practicing well thereof.

You need to look up the words in a dictionary, Essorant. My daughter was born with a very high level of intelligence, which was quickly apparent in the way she learned new things. She was NOT born with much knowledge, though, and suffered for years and years with very little judgment.  
Essorant
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88 posted 03-20-2007 06:58 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

That's called growth, Ron.  
Yes, I do think your daughter had wisdom.  It just wasn't as grown as an old man's.  But it was, nevertheless, there.  Wisdom begins with the human, and grows in stages, as what we betoken with the word "intelligence".  I don't see why you seem to be trying to trivialize "wisdom" or make it something seperate or different.  

Ron
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89 posted 03-20-2007 08:24 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
That's called growth, Ron.

LOL. Is that another word you now want to claim is the same as wisdom?

Of course, by your definition, Essorant, you're agreeing that blatantly sexy women like Sharon Stone, Gina Davis, and Jodie Foster, all of whom have documented intelligence levels exceeding the norm, are also wise women -- since you think intelligence and wisdom are one and the same.

Humpty Dumpty: When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less. Lewis Carrol
Essorant
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90 posted 03-20-2007 08:58 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Ron,

I don't appreciate something I say earnestly, being mocked.


My daughter was born with a very high level of intelligence, which was quickly apparent in the way she learned new things



I was referring to what you were emphasizing here as "growth" Ron.  I wasn't suggesting that growth is wisdom or intellegence, but that wisdom/intelligence and growth both include each other.



Of course, by your definition, Essorant, you're agreeing that blatantly sexy women like Sharon Stone, Gina Davis, and Jodie Foster, all of whom have documented intelligence levels exceeding the norm, are also wise women -- since you think intelligence and wisdom are one and the same"



I never said that they didn't have intellegence/wisdom. I said the emphasis on their looks and sexual appeal instead doesn't show much respect to it.  

Ron
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91 posted 03-20-2007 09:27 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You're right, Ess, I shouldn't mock your words. It's frustrating, though, when you give so little care to them.

You aren't Humpty Dumpty and I hope you'll forgive me if I continue to prefer Webster over Essorant. I think it's very difficult to define wisdom and believe Webster is missing much from common usage, but neither common usage nor Webster will ever agree that intelligence and wisdom are the same things.


Essorant
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92 posted 03-20-2007 09:49 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Which part of the definitions defy sameness or similarity between them?  I don't see it.
Edward Grim
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93 posted 03-20-2007 10:18 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Don't blame Ron for mocking, that's his trademark.

Just kidding, bucko.  
Ron
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94 posted 03-20-2007 10:59 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Intelligence The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge

wisdom The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.

The former is a capacity largely determined at conception. The latter is an (alleged) ability  acquired over time.

I especially like the entry at Wikipdeia for intelligence:

"Although intelligence is sometimes viewed quite broadly, psychologists typically regard the trait as distinct from creativity, personality, character, or wisdom."


Essorant
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95 posted 03-20-2007 11:48 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I admit I don't agree with those definitions.  
I think both wisdom and intelligence have both of what those definitions refer to.  

There is no way I may treat wisdom as only ability justly to judge, and not knowledge and application as well.  Likewise, I can't bring myself to accept intelligence itself as not implying judgement or experience.  


[This message has been edited by Essorant (03-21-2007 12:05 AM).]

Edward Grim
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96 posted 03-21-2007 12:06 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

I wholeheartedly disagree Ess. My brother is living proof that your theory isn't right. His IQ is way up there, 170, 175; something ridiculously high like that. But he has no judgment and no "wisdom" in life. He got into drugs and booze; he's been arrested. One time he woke up in Georgia (lives in Florida) and had no idea how he got there. It took him five years to graduate from college. In the books, he's a genius; in life, he's an idiot. I love my brother but I won't deny he's a moron.

Einstein wasn't too bright in life either. Intelligence and proper judgment (wisdom) do not go hand-in-hand.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Juju
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97 posted 03-21-2007 01:49 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I still stand my ground that Wisdom and Intelligence are seperate entities.  

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Edward Grim
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98 posted 03-21-2007 01:50 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

I just realized how sad this thread turned out to be. It started out to discuss if women were objects or not and ended up debating their intelligence because of their attire. I just feel that that's sad. If this thread was about men I doubt very much that we'd be talking about this right now. And that's pretty sad too.
Edward Grim
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99 posted 03-21-2007 02:14 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"I still stand my ground that Wisdom and Intelligence are seperate entities."

Couldn't agree more.
 
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