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Passions in Poetry

Are women objects?

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rwood
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50 posted 03-14-2007 07:18 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

But....Ess,

I'm confused.

Do you surround yourself with people that have no outward appeal to feel safe in the notion that they are smart, warranting a friendship or conversation?

Doesn't that leave you with the chance of passing up what could be a positive learning experience between two people? Regardless of whether they have sex appeal, or what if they are dirty and smelly from a hard days work and don't really have time to read philosophy but would love to if they didn't have to feed their kids? But if we second guess them, we pass them by as unworthy of our deep thoughts.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, because some people have a wealth of common sense, where others have a stockpile of book sense. Both are valuable to me.
Essorant
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51 posted 03-14-2007 09:39 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"I think true "intelligence" is when a woman or man cares nothing of others' opinions. "

Unfortunately, that is not intelligence, but carelessness, Ed.


"The thought that clothing reveals one's intelligence also seems very superficial."

When people make choices about looks they also have attitude and lifestyle choices that go along therewith.  I don't see how judging that judges people themselves.  I'm not saying that anyone is intellegent or unintelligent for expressing this more than that, but I am saying that certain appearances, attitudes, lifestyle choices express intelligence less than others.  And that includes putting "sex appeal" at the forefront.


"Can you explain why someone who exudes sexual appeal shows "less respect of intelligence?"

When you go out the way to emphasize and express "look at my hot body" and suggest "sex", respect to intelligence diminishes, because you are focusing more on the body and bodily attraction then you are on the mind and judgement.

Edward Grim
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52 posted 03-14-2007 07:45 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"Unfortunately, that is not intelligence, but carelessness, Ed."

Well that's why I put intelligence in parentheses, Ess. It's a different form of intelligence; there are many kinds you know. A person who can go his whole life without worrying about whether someone likes his shirt or not is, in my book, intelligent enough to be comfortable with himself. And I'm shocked you said that that's considered "carelessness." What an awful thing to think. Do you live in fear of what other people think of you? How can you properly live your life if you have to be concerned with other people's thoughts about you? Take my advice, put on a wetsuit, a leather jacket, a hardhat and red boots and just run out into the street screaming "I am the walrus!" Be free! If that's too crazy for ya, then wear two different colored socks or two different shoes. Or find the loudest Hawaiian shirt you can and wear it. Do whatever, just please... Forget what people think, you'll be happier.
    Do you know why kids are happy, man? Because they don't care about the melted ice cream on their t-shirt or the gum in their hair. They don't care what people think.

"I don't see how judging that judges people themselves."

Saying that a woman who looks sexy "probably doesn't study wisdom" sounds a bit like judging to me. Look man, I know where you're coming from but that fact is, like I've said mucho times, these are all assumptions.

Again, I feel as if this conversation is going in circles. Maybe agreeing to disagree wasn't a bad idea, lol.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Huan Yi
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53 posted 03-14-2007 08:24 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Can a sober man, (not KGB), feel, make love to a woman
without desire; without instead compassion, sympathy,
or pity to drive him up and on?

Or is that what Viagra is for?
.
Essorant
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54 posted 03-15-2007 01:57 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Do you surround yourself with people that have no outward appeal to feel safe in the notion that they are smart, warranting a friendship or conversation?"

No,  if I don't like being around someone it is not because of something they are or naturally have, but because of something they may do and keep on doing.  Evil, indecent, unsmart, etc is not what people are, but it is what they do , sometimes even for a living.  But in my opinion there are no evil, indecent, or unsmart people, there are only evil, indecent, unsmart deeds.  The difference between a woman in prostitution and prostitution, is that the woman isn't the one that is indecent, but it is what she does that is indecent.  This is a very important distinction.  If one treats a woman in prostitution as if she is indecent and void of honour, that is just one more way of mistreating her, instead of helping her.

If someone keeps dressing and artificially going out the way to put sex appeal at the front of physical manners, then I think that is more than just momentary looks.  It is behaviour that reflects and influences attitude/mentality.  And I believe this does diminish attention and esteem for more mental and spiritual things because people dwell upon physical attraction, and physical "statements", and then they often expect them to be the gate, before they even walk thro and give any attention to the garden.  

I don't usually avoid people if they are friendly.  But if they strut a bad manner often, and it is a predominant part of their manners, and even their lifestyle then I usually do have misgivings about that person and end up avoiding him/her.

"Doesn't that leave you with the chance of passing up what could be a positive learning experience between two people? "

Yes.  But I'm willing to pass that up if someone's  bad manner is overwhelming.

Edward Grim
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55 posted 03-15-2007 02:00 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"But I'm willing to pass that up if someones  bad manner is overwhelming."

Why do you associate bad manners with sexy clothes?

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Ron
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56 posted 03-15-2007 02:49 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You seem to live in a very small world, Essorant. You should get out a bit more.

Fortunately, your convoluted arguments simply don't stand up to empirical facts. Sharon Stone, for example, has made millions of dollars in large part from being beautiful and sexy. So has Gina Davis and Jodie Foster, just to name two. All are members of Mensa, meaning their IQ's are within the top two percent of the population. Their knowledge, wisdom and judgment would probably blow your socks off. That is, if they even deigned to talk to you.

Intelligence and wisdom aren't defined by your sense of morality. Or by mine. And even if we set aside morality and just addresses priorities, as Christopher already alluded, you don't get to set those, either. You don't get to decide how people should properly use their intellect. I'm sure you wouldn't want anyone telling you how to use yours? Or calling you unintelligent because you chose a different course?

If someone makes you uncomfortable, Essorant, by all means, feel free to avoid their company. You'd be wise, however, to not pretend that's their problem. It's your problem, Ess, and in many cases, will be your loss as well.


rwood
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57 posted 03-15-2007 03:58 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Huan Yi~

Awww. Spell it out man!

Are you asking if a man can successfully manage to make love to what he feels is an ugly woman?


Ess~ "then they often expect them to be the gate, before they even walk thro and give any attention to the garden."

I believe that's a beautiful take on the proverb: "Don't judge a book by its cover."

Huan Yi
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Waukegan


58 posted 03-15-2007 10:08 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"Huan Yi~

Awww. Spell it out man!

Are you asking if a man can successfully manage to make love to what he feels is an ugly woman?"

I said "sober" man . . .
rwood
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59 posted 03-16-2007 05:20 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Alright. I had to change my post because I'm trying not to offend you, though I'm not sure why.

Can a sober man successfully manage to make love to what he feels is an ugly woman?

Out of Compassion, Sympathy, and Pity?

Is it because she's undergone a lobotomy?
Is she diagnosed with a terrible life threatening disease?
Is she having trouble distinguishing the difference between a man and a dog?
Because she'd have to be out her mind, on her death bed, or completely unable to make a proper decision about love or sex to be with a man like that.

Too bad Viagra doesn't give a man a spine.

[This message has been edited by rwood (03-16-2007 05:51 AM).]

Essorant
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60 posted 03-16-2007 10:54 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Sharon Stone, for example, has made millions of dollars in large part from being beautiful and sexy. So has Gina Davis and Jodie Foster, just to name two. All are members of Mensa, meaning their IQ's are within the top two percent of the population.  "


They may have much wisdom in private,(anyone may have that) but the emphasis on their looks and sexual appeal little pays respect to it in public.  

Christopher
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Purgatorial Incarceration


61 posted 03-16-2007 11:35 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

And why is that a bad thing, Ess?
Essorant
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62 posted 03-16-2007 11:50 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I already said it:

"It does have to do with intellegence because that is what comes to be expressed less and less, the more "sex" becomes the theme."

"When you go out the way to emphasize and express "look at my hot body" and suggest "sex", respect to intelligence diminishes, because you are focusing more on the body and bodily attraction than you are on the mind and judgement."


Ron
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63 posted 03-16-2007 12:04 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
They may have much wisdom in private,(anyone may have that) but the emphasis on their looks and sexual appeal little pays respect to it in public.

Little pays respect? LOL. You may be right, Essorant, but I have a funny feeling any one of those hot babes could write a better sentence than that.

I don't know them in private (wish I did), so my estimation of their intelligence, knowledge and wisdom is necessarily based only on their public persona. I've been nothing but impressed. Certainly not all sexy women are intelligent, just as not all slovenly women are, but even these few show glaring flaws in your premise, Essorant.


rwood
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64 posted 03-16-2007 12:57 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

"When you go out the way to emphasize and express "look at my hot body" and suggest "sex", respect to intelligence diminishes, because you are focusing more on the body and bodily attraction than you are on the mind and judgement."

Ess~ So, are you saying that you have no control over your senses in the presence of a hot and sexy woman?

Many men use that notion to cheat on their wives or significant others. "It's not my fault. She was super hot and waved it in my face!"

That's what men in positions of power or authority use to take advantage of their students/employees/victims. "If it wasn't for your hot body..."

I will say this: If a woman comes up to you in a full frontal attack with her sexuality and tries to rip your clothes off your person, Run Essorant Run! She means business and doesn't care who you can quote.

Otherwise, assuming anything based on looks is pretty stupid and can get you into a lot of trouble.

As if there aren't tigresses in plain clothes!


Ron~ I'm glad you knew that about those ladies. I admire them and I'm a big fan of Gina Davis.


Essorant
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65 posted 03-16-2007 01:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"but even these few show glaring flaws in your premise"

No, not really.  

I could mention worse about myself right now, such as not getting out enough, not eating very healthy nor getting enough sleep lately.  I would criticize these things far more than dwelling on "sexy" looks.

Essorant
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66 posted 03-16-2007 02:37 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Ess~ So, are you saying that you have no control over your senses in the presence of a hot and sexy woman?"

Not at all.  I mean there is difference between the token of an attractive woman in careful and "unloud" elegance that contrasts with the omen of a woman that dons sex-centered appeal.  The difference is that one expresses more care and intellegence and dignity in her bearings than the other.  


"Otherwise, assuming anything based on looks is pretty stupid and can get you into a lot of trouble. "

Obviously I don't agree.  To me everything counts, including the additions we give to our outward bearings.  When a woman prostitutes her looks to serve sexual appetites in public there is no token of virtue whatsoever in that.  I can look beyond it, but I don't pretend that it is nothing, or that it is not often in conjunction with sexual hedonism and sexual vices, because it is.  

Juju
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67 posted 03-17-2007 06:17 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Hmm....

I wear heals and make up......
0:

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Huan Yi
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68 posted 03-17-2007 07:16 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


So in an ideal world
there’s an equality
between the lovely and the slovenly . . .
Then I choose Hell


.
Essorant
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69 posted 03-17-2007 07:33 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Well that doesn't say much Juju.  The Queen Elizabeth wears makeup and higheels too.  

One may wear makeup and highheels in such a way that they don't "stand out" with other things to make sex appeal predominate in one's aspect.  They may be "toned down", and other things one wears and expresses in outward bearings may be modest, elegant, sophisticated, and not make "sex appeal" predominate.  

Essorant
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70 posted 03-17-2007 08:33 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Huan Yi,

So if I am "slovenly", you would rather go to hell than treat me as an equal human?

rwood
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71 posted 03-18-2007 04:11 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

“So in an ideal world
there’s an equality
between the lovely and the slovenly . . .
Then I choose Hell”

So move to Stepford, Connecticut and you’ll feel right at home.


“One may wear makeup and highheels in such a way that they don't "stand out" with other things to make sex appeal predominate in one's aspect.”

I can’t help but “stand out,” Ess.

I stand 5’11” tall, which makes me taller than the average man, and when I wear heels I’m apprx. 6’3”.
My genes were never my choice. No matter what I wear or how I wear it, I stand out.

So, Queen Elizabeth has caught your eye, huh?  I bet she don't know she's still got it. You should tell her.

quote:
When a woman prostitutes her looks to serve sexual appetites in public there is no token of virtue whatsoever in that.  I can look beyond it, but I don't pretend that it is nothing, or that it is not often in conjunction with sexual hedonism and sexual vices, because it is.”


True Prostitutes are not in the business of virtue, Ess. They’re in the business to sell sex. Just like a CEO of a piston manufacturing company isn’t in the business of virtue. He’s selling pistons for really fast cars like Corvettes, you know, supposed chick magnets, extensions of manhood, and statements of youth and virility. There’s all kinds of rampant myths about sexual prowess and virtue. Just because a woman has a body from hell doesn’t mean you can test drive her like she is. The woman could be a prostitute? And the clean cut, sharp dressed, strikingly handsome CEO could be a misogynistic serial killer beast in an Armani suit.

Looks don't prove what's inside of a person. I wish they did. I wish you were right. Many people might still be alive.

Essorant
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


72 posted 03-18-2007 06:14 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


I can’t help but “stand out,” Ess.

I stand 5’11” tall, which makes me taller than the average man, and when I wear heels I’m apprx. 6’3”.
My genes were never my choice. No matter what I wear or how I wear it, I stand out.


Please read the sentence again, Reg. I wasn't talking about a person but about the makeup and highheels worn to "stand out" (and also in conjunction with other additions to one's appearance) to make "sex appeal" predominate.

So, Queen Elizabeth has caught your eye, huh?  I bet she don't know she's still got it. You should tell her.

I bet she does know it.  Elegance and sophistication have excelled in her bearings all her life.

True Prostitutes are not in the business of virtue, Ess. They’re in the business to sell sex. [...]


Once again, please look again.  I am not talking about prostitutes, but "prostituting" one's looks to sex appeal.  

Looks don't prove what's inside of a person.



I agree.  Nor do a person's words, deeds, poetry, etc.  What's inside is inside, and only the one "inside" has the "proof".  Any look, word, deed, expression, can be be deceptive or fail to meet intentions.  But that doesn't mean there are no truths, meanings or attatchments to them.


[This message has been edited by Essorant (03-18-2007 07:07 PM).]

rwood
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Tennessee


73 posted 03-18-2007 08:52 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Okay Ess,
just don't judge me because my favorite lipstick shade is Jezebel by Lancome.

I'll overlook your high and mighty expectations since you have a crush on the Queen.

I'm ribbing you.


Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


74 posted 03-18-2007 09:46 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

favorite lipstick color = electric pink

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

 
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