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Passions in Poetry

Are women objects?

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nakdthoughts
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since 10-29-2000
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Between the Lines


25 posted 03-07-2007 10:04 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

It is also true that both men and women market themselves to win love.

I don't believe this statement to be true, JuJu, at least not for all...

First of all I can't even remember ever "marketing" myself for anyone. And especially not to win anything.
Maybe that is a problem with the younger generation today (or maybe not)if that is what they think of themselves and I am sure that today's advertising of products and dating services adds to that confusion.

Did you ever wonder why that particular girl/woman was with that particular boy/man holding hands, walking together? For example a beautiful/handsome woman (by societies' standard) and a plain looking man, or vice versa?

I am sure at one time or another people see this, maybe even think it, especially if we have no one special in our lives and we wonder why we are alone.  

It's because there is more to a person than looks and if we only look to the outside we will never be as happy as we could be in another's company.

Besides love is in the eyes and mind of the beholder. I know I have told this to some before, that what makes me love someone
(and there are all degrees of love) is not what they look like, but what they have in their heart that makes them appear handsome or beautiful to me even if to others or to societies' standards they are not.

It's snowing here again...a day off from teaching left me thinking too much on this
  
We need to be ourselves and not try to compete and if we are lucky enough to meet that someone to fall in like or love with for what they/we see and feel, then it is a truer love than trying to "win" someone over.

just my opinion...and after 36 years of marriage (including the last few years of a partial-separation-divorce to come)I am or was a prime example of not ever being noticed for beauty but for my warm personality, talkative nature and smile, by just being me.
And I am happier not having to try and compete with "looks" today, but instead keeping myself appearing good enough to satisfy myself, not to win anyone over.

M

[This message has been edited by nakdthoughts (03-07-2007 10:56 AM).]

Juju
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In your dreams


26 posted 03-08-2007 12:47 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

It's wrong to not respect yourself.  
Edward Grim
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since 12-18-2005
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27 posted 03-08-2007 10:12 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"It's wrong to not respect yourself."

I agree. You can't respect another person if you don't respect yourself.
nakdthoughts
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28 posted 03-08-2007 05:50 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

That's the point, Juju...you  don't need another's approval or have to compete to respect yourself...and if someone doesn't think you "good" enough for them then that is their problem...and they wouldn't be someone you would want in your life.

M
Huan Yi
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29 posted 03-08-2007 10:11 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Even a good man
prefers the company
of an attractive woman

Diane Wakoski


.
Essorant
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Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


30 posted 03-08-2007 10:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I prefer the company of a woman with good manners.  
Edward Grim
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31 posted 03-08-2007 10:53 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Yeah Ess, I agree 1000% man. I remember seeing this woman who was... absolutely radiant. This woman glowed like a fluorescent light bulb set on fire, ya dig? She was one up from an angel, hell; she was 2 degrees higher than an angel. Then...

She spoke.

I tell ya man, she was so mean, dare I say evil; I found myself staring at a hobgoblin. She made children cry. No, seriously, the kid with her was being verbally mangled by this woman. And boy did she give me a shotgun look, .20 gauge straight to the face. The dirtiest look any human being as ever dealt to me. Here I thought her beauty was like the Rolling Stones (as in her radiance would never die) but her "beauty" quickly faded away like Nirvana (who mind you, also ended because the main singer had a shotgun, coincidence? I think not).

Yeah, I felt superficial for falling into a dark abyss of love for this woman; to say the least I learned a lesson though. Beauty of mind is all we really got, 'cause our faces and bodies are gonna wither, wrinkle and fade away. And if people realized that, they would probably be happier.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

nakdthoughts
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32 posted 03-09-2007 06:38 PM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

Beauty of mind
I like that Ed...


M
Huan Yi
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33 posted 03-09-2007 07:20 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


There’s a sort of “dumb blond” prejudice
that assumes the more physically attractive
a woman is the less likely there’s an attractive mind inside.
I have not found that the case; in fact I’ve found physically
attractive women just as, if not more, likely than others,
(who then carry a chip on their shoulders, or try to compensate by being
“wild” or “crazy” ,which usually means obnoxious), to be
someone worth being with if only in conversation.


.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (03-09-2007 08:37 PM).]

Essorant
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34 posted 03-11-2007 03:45 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

When a woman walks by in makeup, high heels and a tight and revealing dress I feel little doubt that she is probably not very minded to read books and study wisdom.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (03-11-2007 04:31 AM).]

Edward Grim
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35 posted 03-11-2007 03:36 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Hmm, I don't know about that Ess. That fact is that pretty much all women wear makeup; and high heels are just a style of shoe. A person cannot be judged by simply how they look, I learned that first hand. Like my above story, I saw a woman that looked very sweet and nice but that wasn't the case. And as far as revealing clothes go, that's just the individual's sense of fashion. A king in poor man's clothes is still a king; it's only clothes. But perhaps it’s the mentality of wearing revealing clothing that is the point. A lady that wears low-cut apparel perhaps merely seeks attention in the wrong way. They might want all eyes on them so to speak. That is an emotional issue, not an intellectual issue. At least that's my take on it.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Essorant
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36 posted 03-11-2007 06:52 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't try to judge the people by the way they look and dress, but I do partially judge their lifestyles from the way they look and dress, because how we look and dress is a part of lifestyle, and does betoken a manner that more often than not, rears its head further than just superficial appearances.  And from my getting to know people, I've found that it usually proves true.  People that dress this or that way usually  also have attitudes, manners, and a lifestyle that involves the characterstic you see in the way they dress.  People that wear melancholy and black clothing and the "goth" look, usually do have a lifestyle of melancholy and dark things.  Someone that wears much makeup and things to give her sexual allure,  usually is involved in a lifestyle that is more sexual.  Someone that has a natural, pleasant, modest-looking appearance usually has a lifestyle that goes along with that characteristic too.  Certainly there are exceptions, and also deceptions, but in my experiences, the way people appear and dress very often does tell truths about their attitude and lifestyle.

Edward Grim
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37 posted 03-11-2007 08:15 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Very true, I agree.

However:

"Someone that wears much makeup and things to give her sexual allure usually is involved in a lifestyle that is more sexual."

Being "more sexual" has nothing to do with a person's level of intelligence.

"When a woman walks by in makeup, high heels and a tight and revealing dress I feel little doubt that she is probably not very minded to read books and study wisdom."

You can't assume things like that. Some of the smartest people around were a little promiscuous. If a woman has "sexed" up her appearance, that means she wants to look sexually appealing. Her clothing and desire for sexual appeal has nothing to do with her intelligence just her attitude, like you said.

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Essorant
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38 posted 03-11-2007 09:40 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

I don't agree at all.  Women that are wont to go out of their way to be "sexy" are rarely those that are strongly interested in reading and studying wisdom.  
rwood
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39 posted 03-12-2007 06:59 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

"Women that are wont to go out of their way to be "sexy" are rarely those that are strongly interested in reading and studying wisdom."  

I disagree. Confidence is very sexy. Great style is very sexy. Being fresh-faced with a bright smile, clean and shining hair, is very sexy. Possessing poise and grace is very sexy. A great balance of kindness and fire and wisdom without arrogance is very sexy. I speak of sexy, as exciting, appealing, quality traits that add to the person, not take away. Any of the things I listed can be misapplied and teeter on what I call "trashy" or bad examples, but there are women who set the bar high on their sexiness and there are women who sit at a lot of bars and make the mistake of modeling themselves after what's hot inside the bar, which is fine and dandy if they want to be that way and live with it.

Also, what if she's a librarian or a school teacher and ends up being a sexual fantasy just because of the "she's probably a wildcat underneath all that wholesome and boring attire" factor?

Edward Grim
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40 posted 03-12-2007 11:38 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"Women that are wont to go out of their way to be "sexy" are rarely those that are strongly interested in reading and studying wisdom."

I'm really not sure how you can say that. Your entire argument is based on false assumptions and stereotypes. Sex and intelligence have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Just Like Regina said, "Confidence is very sexy." A woman or man that dresses to look sexy is merely looking to boost their confidence or maybe even attract the opposite sex. We are creatures that mate, Ess. Like many animals, we have our own little mating calls; you see what I mean? We have to keep up the planet's population you know; it's our duty, lol.
     A person who is sexual is a person who enjoys sex, which is a physical act. Intelligence is one's faculty of understanding, something that has nothing to do with one's appearance or physical preferences. Sex and intelligence are so far away from each other because anyone (smart as whip or dumb as an ox) can have a little fun if you know what I mean. But not as many people can obtain a high level of intelligence with that amount of ease.
     Let's take the focus off women for a minute. What about a man who likes sex and is promiscuous and dresses to advertise his taste? Is he "unintelligent" as well? What about Casanova? He was probably the most famous and infamous "lover" of all time and yet his written works are respected because he was a great writer. Was it just because he's a man?


    


Head Cheese & Chicken Feet
Essorant
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41 posted 03-12-2007 09:04 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It does have to do with intellegence because that is what comes to be expressed less and less, the more "sex" becomes the theme.  Do I have a problem with such done in bedrooms and private?  No.  But it is shame when it becomes a growing exhibitionism in public, that also includes much youth going to highschool supposedly to become more "educated".  

Edward Grim
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42 posted 03-12-2007 10:28 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"It does have to do with intelligence because that is what comes to be expressed less and less, the more "sex" becomes the theme."

Are you saying that the more sex you have, the dumber you become? That seems very inaccurate to me, man. I mean hell, if that were the case our world would go back to the days of Cro-Magnon man! Having sex isn't the equivalent to banging your head against the wall; you won't lose brain cells I promise, lol.

"But it is shame when it becomes a growing exhibitionism in public"

I agree fully with you here. It literally makes me uncomfortable to see someone dressed like a staff member of a strip club. I get nervous enough as it is around women without them being dressed like centerfolds. My argument is that just because someone is into sex and likes to look like walking sex, doesn't mean their intelligence is scraping the bottom of the barrel. No, I don't agree with how people can dress inappropriately sometimes but I know how someone looks has nothing to do with their smarts.

"that also includes much youth going to high school supposedly to become more "educated"."

Whoa now man, off the subject. I'm talking about adults here dude. I think teenagers should have to sport monk's garbs. Teenage girls who dress like that are just begging to get in trouble. Man, I don't even want to think about that stuff. I see these damn twelve year olds with makeup on and skirts higher than Jefferson Airplane and I just want to give their parents an endless rain of slaps across the face. I mean, they're kids for Christ's sakes! They should be in denim overalls and have candy sticking to their face, not makeup and short skirts!
rwood
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43 posted 03-13-2007 07:23 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I do understand what Ess is talking about. I don't consider myself to be all that old-fashioned, but if I waved my tush around in public like it was an object, my Momma would hunt me down and flog it off like an object that I'd never need anymore, and I'm 40 years old!

She has a "Keep it covered or wish you did," motto, when it comes to public matters, and I respected her word when I was little, even more now. She raised 3 daughters, mostly by herself, and we didn't make it easy on her. She was and is, a lady. One who made sure we pursued a real future and not one that would fade away with our beauty or youth.

Thanks Momma!

Christopher
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Purgatorial Incarceration


44 posted 03-13-2007 02:22 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Ess, you're talking about your own personal morals, not a direct link between intelligence and appearance.

You're also talking about your own standards - while it may be valuable to you to study the wisdom of the ages, learn the Grecian language and etc., some others may be just as fulfilled by attaining a well-paying job and earning the esteem of their compatriots for being an enjoyable person to be around. They may not even be able to spell Grecian, but could be happy in that.
Huan Yi
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45 posted 03-13-2007 07:42 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Manners are especially the need of the plain. The pretty can get away with anything.”

Evelyn Waugh


I also once read a quote from some famous woman
who said her fantasy was to be wanted only for her body.


“for the eyes are the scouts of the heart…
…and the heart is the organ of opening up to someone else.”

from Joseph Campbell on love in mythology, art and life (from the Power of Myth w/ Bill Moyers)


.
PS

http://www.thebeckoning.com/poetry/yeats/yeats4.html


.
Essorant
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46 posted 03-13-2007 08:53 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Are you saying that the more sex you have, the dumber you become?"


No, I am saying the more one dwells on and struts sexual appeal, the less and less they express and show respect of intellegence, let alone share or inspire it.
   
"My argument is that just because someone is into sex and likes to look like walking sex, doesn't mean their intelligence is scraping the bottom of the barrel. "

I agree with that.  All I am saying is that if you put "sex" in your appearance and expressions foremost, you inevitablly put intellegence in your appearance and expressions less.  And I told you that I think that often lifestyle bears out that characteristic that people pursue in their appearance.   Someone that pursues more an expression of "sex" in thier appearance than intellegence, most likely pursues a lifestyle that is more oriented to "sex" than a lifestyle more oriented to more intellectually cultivating things such as reading, and studying wisdom, history, language, or even weighing and debating things as philosophically as we do here in this forum.  

  
"I know how someone looks has nothing to do with their smarts."

Well, I think it does.  Looks either more or less help express smarts or don't.  And the more they are shown to be acknowledged and respected, the more they are acknowledged and respected, and inspire others to partake.  There is no such expression of intellegence, in which intellegence is acknowledged and respected, when people more and more put sex first in their looks, expressions, images, attitudes, etc.

Huan Yi
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Posts 6334
Waukegan


47 posted 03-13-2007 09:43 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


And why can’t looks be a trap
in which the victim, (God help him),
discovers to his abject dismay
the trapper is thoughtful as well?  


.
Edward Grim
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since 12-18-2005
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48 posted 03-13-2007 09:53 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

I think true "intelligence" is when a woman or man cares nothing of others' opinions. Fashion (and its industry) tends to be very trivial and at many times it can be conceited. The thought that clothing reveals one's intelligence also seems very superficial. You mentioned "goth" teenagers. Well, I know this dude who reached a very high level on the "goth scale." Outwardly, I suppose you could say that he looked a moldy piece of meat with legs and chains. He "looked" brain-dead and people treated him that way. Well, he happened to be my sister’s new boyfriend so I had to get acquainted. Not only was he an avid Russophile (some of his role models being Tolstoy and Chekhov. And not to mention his homemade shirt reading "Rasputin still breathes in the Neva") but he was delving into German philosophy as well. We had an entire discussion about Nietzsche then he veered off to Hegel and eventually into Kierkegaard (yes he was Christian too.) Do you see my point? A person can’t be judged by their looks.
    And you don’t really know their lifestyle, Ess. Do you think every sexy woman you see looks like that all the time? Come one, lol. I mean I have about ten pairs of dark green cargo pants in my closet and black shirts to match every one of them. I wear size 12 ½ army boots and sport Chinese Red Army winter hat with welder’s goggles. Does that mean I want to enlist in the Army or become a welder? Don’t think so…


"I am saying the more one dwells on and struts sexual appeal, the less and less they express and show respect of intelligence, let alone share or inspire it."


You keep saying this and I just don't understand your logic. Can you explain why someone who exudes sexual appeal shows "less respect of intelligence?" I'd really like to hear why you think that. Because for the life of me I can't figure it out. Maybe we should just agree to disagree, lol.

"most likely pursues a lifestyle that is more oriented to "sex" than a lifestyle more oriented to more intellectually cultivating things such as reading, and studying wisdom, history, language, or even weighing and debating things as philosophically as we do here in this forum."

Here is my point: your first two words, "most likely." There is where my whole argument rests. It's all assumptions and stereotyping and I think you know it is. That's the same as saying, "Most likely all rappers are black"; "Most likely all men play football"; "Most likely all Mexicans in the U.S. are illegal immigrants"; "Most likely all women who wear sexy clothes are ignorant tramps." All that sounds pretty awful man and "most likely" all of it is based entirely on assumptions and stereotypes. "Most likely" a person who believes that a woman’s style defines her mental capacity is very, very wrong.

I’m not sure what else to say about the matter.


Cheers...

Head Cheese & Chicken Feet

Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


49 posted 03-13-2007 11:02 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"And why can’t looks be a trap
in which the victim, (God help him),
discovers to his abject dismay
the trapper is thoughtful as well?  "


If someone has has much respect and strength in thoughtfulness and virtues, they don't need to put "good looks" first.  Nor do they need to trap people, when they can earn peoples respect by expressing thier virtues and wisdom.

 
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