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God vs Religion
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God vs Religion |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
This is not to say that God is against religion in anyway. After all he insired Peter to write that we "must not forsake the gathering of ourselves together, but incite one another to love and fine works." But really, does God take pleasure in the forms of religious worship today? Does he take pleasure in watching the turth about Him, His Son and what his plans for the universe are, being twisted and tainted beyond any recognition? Is it necessary to point fingers and deem others unworthy to hear the truth about God? After all " God is not partial..." This is not to say that any specific religion is right and others are wrong, but I'm just saying that I think that people should try and justify their actions by blaming God for their problems. For instance, when a child died, the parents were told that "God wanted a little angel..." is this right? Why not use the scriptures to rightfully point out that "Through one man sin entered the world, and through sin death..." rather than using mans understanding, creating a heathen religion and lying about God's purposes? So, what makes religion in anyway in tune with waht God said in the bible? |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
Short of having God's 1-800 number, I don't think any of us can fathom whether His plan is going awry, or whether it is even possible for such to occur. Furthermore, asking how 'religion' is in tune (or not) with the Bible distills the concept of religion down to mean "the Christian faith," which despite the belief of many in the US and elsewhere represents a minority among faiths worldwide ... As to your anecdote about the death of a child, it is wholly more palatable to comfort the parents by reminding them of the child's happiness in Heaven than it is to blame it on the actions of some distant (and many believe allegorical) ancestor. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Kitherion, good to see you around again. quote: I think that would depend upon how conformable these are to God's revealed truth as expressed in the Bible, and relationally, how conformable to the leading of God's Spirit. quote: Of course not. But it's not as if we have been left without guidance textually or relationally (despite what some would say). I think the decry of something being "twisted" presupposes the standard I am speaking of. quote: No, you're right. No one is unworthy to hear the truth about God. However that is not to say that no one may reject the truth of God upon hearing, or at some later point, taking themselves out of the fold (so to speak). Even Jesus, as inclusive as he was, said not to "cast pearls before swine". Can that statement be abused, and be made the indiscriminate philosophy of a haughty and self-righteous heart? Sure it can. All of God's truth is double-edged and conditional upon grace in the heart. Rope can be used to pull someone out of the mud, or to hang them with. quote: Does this mean that you have no standard by which to judge whether God's words have been "twisted and tainted"? Or are you referring simply to denominational variations of the Revelation as given by God, rather than saying there is no religious truth? quote: But in a sense, BOTH could be right. The Bible speaks of the curse of sin, but also about redemption. All death is somehow related to the sin nature that our first parents entered into. But does that mean there is no mercy, or that God doesn't view dying children with compassion and redemption in mind? The thing is, both of the concepts are true and are expressed in the Bible. It presents a complexity of course, but it is a complexity we can understand because we live with it. quote: May sound overly simplistic, (but it really is, in theory) but what makes it in tune with what God said in the bible, is whether or not it is in tune with what God said in the Bible.  We have propositional truth in the Bible, which, though it may not be as clear as a dotted diagram, is nonetheless open to examination. I think more people fail from a lack of looking with earnestness, tenacity, and humility, than fail from true textual (or spiritual) opacity.Me included. How Often I'll choose junk food instead of what I know is better for my body. The same is true in spirit. Stephen. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Does God like egg salad sandwiches? I should ask him, oh wait... I can't. My favorite questions are ones directed towards people who can't answer them. Like: What's Saddam's favorite kind of fruit smoothie? Oh wait, can't ask him either, he's hangin' around somewhere else, lol. I'm just pullin your leg. All sarcasm aside, it's questions like these that I find bothersome. Here is my unwanted opinion: A person cannot be "saved" by their religion, only by how good they conduct themselves in life. Doesn't matter what your beliefs are as long as you've led a pretty decent life. That's all I have to say about that. Oh and about your last line: "So, what makes religion in anyway in tune with waht God said in the bible?" I have a very simple answer; religions are based on the bible and God pretty much penned it Himself so there ya go. It's pretty direct. And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Ed: quote: I thought the Catholic belief was that one could actually have a relationship with God (in some fashion or another), not that he was some great unknowable something-or-other out there somewhere maybe, but that he has actually revealed himself, both historically, personally, and textually. And by the way, I personally think your equation of Kitherion's question, with a question about egg sandwiches, could be insulting to those who desire to talk about God. If you don't like it, or find it a trivial question, then why not just quietly pass it by? quote: It's not unwanted. But I'm wondering, since you emphasize the word "opinion", are we to take that as merely preferential, or do you believe it is really true to the exclusion of other beliefs ... such as the belief in the necessity of Christ for salvation? Because the cross of Christ is a blatant denial of works-based righteousness, and salvation by "common decency". quote: Doesn't this seems at odds with what you were saying before? Stephen. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
“I thought the Catholic belief was that one could actually have a relationship with God (in some fashion or another), not that he was some great unknowable something-or-other out there somewhere maybe, but that he has actually revealed himself, both historically, personally, and textually.” Yea Steph, you’re right. You can have a relationship with God, and no He’s not some great unknowable something-or-other. In fact, I don’t really remember implying that. And if you are referring to when I said: “I should ask him, oh wait... I can't.” Well, obviously a great, sonorous voice is not going to emit out of the clouds saying yay or nay on liking the sandwich. You talk to God through prayer and meditation and the responses aren’t verbal, you are answered in your heart and mind. “And by the way, I personally think your equation of Kitherion's question, with a question about egg sandwiches, could be insulting to those who desire to talk about God. If you don't like it, or find it a trivial question, then why not just quietly pass it by?” That’s your opinion man. Human skin should not resemble eggshells. I didn’t tell her a bad momma joke or kick her dog or put a banana peal under her shoe. I don’t have beef with anybody including you; let’s not start trouble  .“It's not unwanted. But I'm wondering, since you emphasize the word "opinion", are we to take that as merely preferential, or do you believe it is really true to the exclusion of other beliefs ... such as the belief in the necessity of Christ for salvation?” God, what are you a litigator? lol Why can’t you just talk to me without trying to piece apart everything? “It is my opinion” Where’s the complexity in that statement? An opinion is a personal view. And did I say: “it is really true to the exclusion of other beliefs”? No, I didn’t. I said it was something I thought. Are you implying that if someone says: “I like vanilla” they’re simultaneously saying anyone who dislikes vanilla is wrong? I know you can’t possibly be saying that, so where are you getting with this? “Doesn't this seems at odds with what you were saying before?” No not really, please explain. [Now I have a little side note here. Obviously we are not talking in person so you don’t know my tone or body language. I feel that I should stipulate that this message was written without a provoking or offensive attitude or tone. It’s sad that I have to add a note such as this. But apparently when you read my messages, the tone you think I’m using is not a good one; so no need to be offended by anything. I’ve said this once and I’ll say it again, anyone can be offended by something if they try hard enough. So no sore bones Steven, I like you and you know more about religion then anybody on here, I respect that.] And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: I guess that was my point ... that this whole question differed significantly from such a commonplace question as egg-salad versus pimento-cheese. But, I guess I'll just have to get used to your swashbuckling style. I'm certainly not offended.Stephen. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Ed, Now that we're sure we're not offended. I would like to point out two thoughts in your reply, which seem to be at odds with one another. Just for the sake of pondering this yourself, or if you want to explain more fully ... but I wanted to bring it up. (It is a philosophy forum) quote: and ... quote: On the one hand Kith's questions bothered you. On the other hand you conceded that God could make his will known (excluding trivialities of course). So why did these questions bother you, if you consider the content to be valid subject-matter for divine inquiry? At least you can see why this would confuse someone like me, who is trying to take your replies seriously. Stephen. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Yeah, I tend to be too sarcastic sometimes. And uh... "swashbuckling style," heh that's a really nice way to put it. The not-so-nice term for my style more than likely has the word "hole" in it somewhere and probably isn't allowed on here, lol. Thanks Yeah, I think I will ponder this one on my own…. lol, just kidding. ”On the one hand Kith's questions bothered you. On the other hand you conceded that God could make his will known (excluding trivialities of course). “ Yes the question did bother me a little. I somewhat sarcastically answered the questions in my first reply. “My favorite questions are ones directed towards people who can't answer them.” Hence the Saddam comment. I find questions like that a little… funny. I think skyfire said it perfectly. “Short of having God's 1-800 number, I don't think any of us can fathom whether His plan is going awry, or whether it is even possible for such to occur.” Actually, skyfire’s entire reply was perfect in answering the post. Hmm, I think I need to learn how to write my responses more eloquently, that would be good. ”So why did these questions bother you, if you consider the content to be valid subject-matter for divine inquiry?” My thinking is: Don’t question God, what’s the point anyway? For example, I’m trying very hard to stay away from Huan Yi’s thread about the Trinity. We are dust to Him and for us to question His methods must be an insult or at least that’s how I see it. And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone." |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: I don't begrudge such answers as Skyfire gave because quite frankly, the mysterious nature of God has been the subject of much commentary, even in the Bible. Job once asked rhetorically, "If he snatches away, who can stop him? Who can say to him, 'What are you doing?" (Job 9:12). Try the book of Ecclesiastes for more of the same. How can you question absolute sovereignty and power, and the numinous "otherness" of God? But there is another side of things too (remember incarnation?) where God says things like "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD" (Isaiah 1:18) Jesus said "Keep on seeking and you shall find". There is consolation in the mist. There are surprises of revelation. There are invitations to relationship and to personal teaching of truth. If he's hiding, it seems to be something like hide and seek, not an absolute disappearing act or abandonment. No I don't begrudge Sky's answer, I just think there is more to consider, and to hope for. quote: So now you're moving from "can't" to "shouldn't". And I do see your point. My son sometimes asks questions in a wrong way, to challenge my authority as his father and wants to have it his way. At other times he asks "why" out of a genuine curiosity and desire to learn. So some I answer, and some I don't. I think something like this is afoot when people "question" God. However, I think God is up for the tough questions. I also think, more often than not, people really do have a desire to search and know. Those kind of questions shouldn't be discouraged, in my opinion. How can you even begin to believe in what you haven't thought through? Stephen. |
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Angel4aKing Senior Member
since 2006-09-27
Posts 1372USA |
so much of the bible can be confusing and we learn as we grow for the most part. I know that words are important and too many words can confuse the mind..Like having a problem to solve which can leave you with alot of guessing...if someone doesn't know what they are talking about then they shouldn't talk about it, however given the wrong information by someone who does know what they are talking about seems to me would be something they would be accountable for. I understand that there are a certain number of Angels and souls etc....so a soul does not become an Angel, correct?...UGH too confusing... ~~~kingsangel~~~ |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Hi Stephanos... wow... it's been too long. Now, Edward, I found your comments rather insulting... even if you say you didn't mean them... deep down in secret.... You did But anyway, your analygy of asking God whether he likes egg sandwhiches is illogical... (everyone knows he likes salami )because you are equating a hypothetical and etherial question to a physical one. That is like saying, if you can't see blue it doesn't exist...Anyway, nice to chat to you again Steph. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
"That is like saying, if you can't see blue it doesn't exist..." That is my whole point of the two realities. If someone doesn't know what an Ipod is, then to them it doesn't exist. Obviously it does but not the them. If a person was blind since birth, they won't know what blue looks like and you can't accurately define it to them. And don't be insulted, it's just bad humor. Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
What do you mean? Just because someone doesn't know what an Ipod is, doesn't mean he doesn't acknowledge its existance, even just thro the evidence of there being a word for what is being spoken about. If there is a word for something, there is something for the word. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
[sighs] Here we go again... I'm saying if you've never even heard of an Ipod it doesn't exist to you. It exists but not to you. Do you know what a Crucsojection Device is? Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
No, I don't know what it is, but I can still acknowledge that it exists in one way or another, either made up more mentally, or made up more materially. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
What if I didn't mention it, Ess? Would you have still known about it? I think not. Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I would know it exists, because something doesn't need me to know something about it in order to exist. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Yes I'm not saying otherwise. But to you, an hour ago the Crucsojection Device didn't exist because you didn't know about it. To kids in Africa, Ipods don't exist to them because they've never heard of it and probably won't ever hear about it. But it does exist just not in there minds. This is a very simple concept. I don't see the need for an argument; it's pretty straightforward. Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
One may not know what is in another country, but s/he may still know that whatever is in the other country exists. Anything specific is covered by that vagueness. If you know that something beyond exists, then you know something about everything that is beyond, including an Ipod you never heard about or saw in your life. You know that it exists. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
"One may not know what is in another country, but s/he may still know that whatever is in the other country exists." That doesn't make much sense Ess. If you have absolutley no knowledge on something's existense, you don't sit around pondering the thing you don't know. I'm sure African kids don't know about Ipods, plain and simple. Just re-read your comment. You basically said "They don't know it exists but they know it might exist." No, wrong. You can only say that you acknowledge the existence of the Crucsojection Device now because I told you. Prior to my telling you, it didn't exist to you. "If you know that something beyond exists, then you know something about what is beyond." I gotta tell you. I do not know a thing about Quantum Physics. I know it exists but I just don't know a thing about it. So your statement doesn't really hold water. Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
"If you have absolutley no knowledge on something's existense, you don't sit around pondering the thing you don't know. " No one I ever met has absolutely no knowledge about something, and no one is likely to know nothing about something being "beyond" even if s/he doesn't know specifics about it. I ponder about things "beyond" earth all the time. I know that I know one thing about everything: that it exists. And I believe that everyone else may know that much as well. That's all I am arguing. Not that they know specifics about something's existance, but that they may acknowledge the existance of something beyond without having encountered it yet. "I gotta tell you. I do not know a thing about Quantum Physics. I know it exists but I just don't know a thing about it. So your statement doesn't really hold water. " All I am saying is that you do know something: you know it exists. And you could know that whether or not you ever heard of "Quantam Physics" or not. I'm not saying you would specifically refer to it as "Quantum Physics" Obviously you wouldn't. But it would be the acknowlegement of something beyond. You may not know specifically what it is. But you know something about it: that it exists. |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Oh come on Ess, "No one I ever met has absolutely no knowledge about something" You seem like a pretty educated guy so I wouldn't expect you to know ignorant people. But contrary to what you say, a person can have absolutely no knowledge or its existence. Do you think kids deep into Africa know what a Segway is? I really don't know where that statement came from, how could you possibly expect me or anyone to agree with that? I'll give an example. In the Amazon many many years ago, the natives did not know anything about horses. They didn't know of their existence and no they didn't even ponder the concept of horses as being "beyond." When the Spanish explorers came they brought horses with them obviously. Now these Indians were hostel towards intruders (who wouldn't be) so they prepared to attack the Spanish. First sight of the horses, they retreated in absolute fear. To them, horses never existed so when they saw them for the first time, they were fear stricken. So do you see my point Ess? "they may acknowledge the existence of something beyond without having encountered it yet." True but if they've never heard of it, then how can they acknowledge it? Like I said, you didn't acknowledge my Device before I told you about it. Do you see what I'm saying? It's illogical to think that a person can know about something without ever seeing it or being told about it or having any knowledge whatsoever about it. I gave my Quantum Physics example to show you that your statement of: "If you know that something beyond exists, then you know something about everything that is beyond" isn't totally accurate. Just because you know something is beyond doesn't mean you know about it because there is no "it" for you to define because you don't know about it yet. lol, I'm startin to feel like this conversastion is going in circles. - Ed Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
This conversation is going in circles (NOTE : this doesn't in anyway mean that I agree with you ED), but to put it in a psychologists perspective, reality is subjective to each differrent person. What ever someone percieves as reality, cannot ve real at the same time as what another perceives. MWAH!!! |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
"this doesn't in anyway mean that I agree with you ED" Yes, someone agreeing with me on this site would be a damn shame wouldn't it. Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: But that doesn't rule out the fact that perceptions can still be wrong ... or right. There is an objective element involved as well. Stephen. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ed I already mentioned that one may not know about something in the exact same shape or in the exact same terms. What I am saying though is that they have knowledge of the same thing but in a different shape and different terms. Technology takes on a a more toyish shape of a "Playstation" among one culture, but it takes on a more practicle shape of a clay pot in another culture. It is the same thing (technology), but in two different terms and shapes ("Playstation" "clay pot"). If you know something about technology (and I believe everyone does to some extent) then you know something about a Playstation, for a Playstation is technology, even though you don't think and understand technology in terms of the specific shape known as "Playstation" if you never met it before. Instead you think and understand it in terms of the shape(s) in your own culture, for example as a "clay pot". My belief is that as long as you know something about anything, then you know something about every thing, for every different thing is just a variation of the very same thing. Whatever you don't know about specifically you know about generally in something general or embodied in a different shape with something else. In this way everyone knows something about everything, just not all the complete extent of shapes it takes and the complete extent of relationships between those shapes. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
What you're describing, Essorant, are sometimes called stereotypes. Not a good thing.  |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Ess, I mentioned the whole "going in a circle" thing. I already made my point and I honestly don't intend on changing my mind. I'll let you know if I do though. Cheers mate... Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I think there's a word for that, too, Ed. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Ron I don't think stereotypes usually include acknowedging something beyond what is presently known. Instead they usually abuse what little knowledge they have and treat it as the "all". If one doesn't know exactly what is in a box, he still knows something about what is in the box, that is he knows that it exists, and is something in the box, and something beyond what he can presently see by looking at the surface. Thus he has knowledge about what is in the box before he even opens the box to see what specifically is there. Surely that makes sense?  Ed Sorry for making you dizzy  |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
quote: Sure it makes sense. But there's still the possibility that one might not know about the box, or whether there is anything in it. Or that the object (or knowledge) in question isn't anything as common as a box. What you seem to be avoiding is the conclusion that people may be genuinely ignorant. But even if I argue complete ignorance is possible, I do agree with you Essorant, that God is the one being to whom Ed's description of "complete ignorance" does not apply. The Bible tells us that he has given a general revelation to all, whereby psychology is inclined toward a knowledge of the necessity of Deity. A knowledge that is often abused and distorted through sin and ignorance, but still present. One can say "I know nothing of mycology". One cannot as assuredly say "I know nothing of God". Stephen |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
"I think there's a word for that, too, Ed." Sure there is but the fact is that I've been over the topic several times and he hasn't made a strong enough point to make me change my mind. I want people to change my mind in a discussion but that doesn't always happen. Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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Kitherion Member
since 2006-08-01
Posts 181Johannesburg |
Now, Now children... lets not get nasty about things But still, reality does not exist to one person like it exists to another... and No, I am right (Teehee, please don't kill me... ). It is impossible for the mind to comprehend "what is" to another person. Your reality is infact a perception of your vision and how you interact with your environment...I might just agree with you now Ed... please, don't have a seisure |
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Edward Grim Senior Member
since 2005-12-18
Posts 1154Greenville, South Carolina |
Hold on Kith, let my epileptic spell pass before I can respond to you. lol You know what, I like you. Not because you agree with me, but it sure does help (just kidding ya, lol) I've determined that this place is a nut house and everyone's fighting to be the cashew. Head Cheese & Chicken Feet |
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