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Passions in Poetry

Pope urges leaders to renounce violence - Yahoo! News

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Stephanos
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25 posted 12-03-2006 06:19 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
And, I can go to bed at night knowing that I am not a hypocrite, like those who smile in people's faces and act politely towards those people, yet in their hearts believe that those same people are wrong and are going to suffer in a hellfire for eternity.


I think I've asked this before ... Why are you so sure that holding a belief in the possibility of perdition, means that one wants that result for anyone else, or is somehow malicious in heart?


That doesn't logically follow does it?


At least my version of damnation (for you) is only a final possiblity.  And yet you somehow fail to notice that you are damning me with the slur "hypocrite" pretty much all the time? ... and, in this case, without religious fundamentalism.  


Peace,

Stephen.

JesusChristPose
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26 posted 12-03-2006 11:19 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"I think I've asked this before ... Why are you so sure that holding a belief in the possibility of perdition, means that one wants that result for anyone else, or is somehow malicious in heart?"

~ Fair question, Stephanos, although I don't believe you have asked me that question before.

~ I don't believe it is a maliciousness in certain cases of christians who believe their way is the only way, although I have witnessed it before.

~ I would like to believe in most cases it is more like a haughty and snooty conceitedness:

"we are right and tsk, tsk for all of you other non-believers of our God, for your fate is a terrible one."

... when the followers of one religion can only believe that their way is the only true way. And, that is where you and I differ. That is where, I believe, many christians make the mistake of judging others.

"That doesn't logically follow does it?"

~ So, in that sense, yet it does. Til this day, I can't understand how the christian majority can believe that it is "their way or the highway" when the Bible does not teach that, except that those people come "under the spell" of christian leaders.


"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."
Edward Grim
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27 posted 12-03-2006 09:00 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

JCP, you're an atheist?

I thought you were just a Soundgarden fan. I find it odd because you're always talking about God, like you're trying to convince other people to become atheists too.

I'm pretty sure everyone just ignored my last post but I still say:

"I think people should just leave each other alone in the department."

You said:

"we are right and tsk, tsk for all of you other non-believers of our God, for your fate is a terrible one."

And before you say that stuff, maybe you should read my last post.    - Ed


[This message has been edited by Edward Grim (12-03-2006 10:32 PM).]

Balladeer
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28 posted 12-03-2006 10:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I read your post, Ed.

People just need to be groovy about this stuff.

I agree that people should indeed be groovy. I also agreed with "Why can't we all just get along?" Neither are realistic, however. There will always be un-groovy people and trying convince them of the logic of getting alongedness is not going to stop violence hidden behind the banner of religion. It is too convenient of a reason for the uneducated and the fanatic.
Stephanos
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29 posted 12-04-2006 04:35 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

JCP:
quote:
Fair question, Stephanos, although I don't believe you have asked me that question before.


Perhaps not in those exact words.  But in a thread of yours called "Christians What Do You Think", I asked you the following questions, along similar lines:


"... what about the distinction between communicating truth out of love, versus communicating it out of spite?"

and

"Is the problem always with the "truth" or with the spirit behind the announcement thereof?"


quote:
I don't believe it is a maliciousness in certain cases of christians who believe their way is the only way, although I have witnessed it before.



That's all I wanted to hear you say.  Because if you can concede that there are exceptions, you are admitting that the problem is seperate from the "fundamentalism" which may agitate it.  My point all along is that any strongly held belief, religious or not, may be used as an excuse to be mean, and to do wrong.  


quote:
I would like to believe in most cases it is more like a haughty and snooty conceitedness:

"we are right and tsk, tsk for all of you other non-believers of our God, for your fate is a terrible one."



"haughty and snooty conceitedness" may be irksome and worthy of criticism, but it's a far cry from the kind of violence you mentioned at the beginning of this thread.  Besides, isn't it obvious that the attitude of arrogance can attend (or not attend) any particular ideology?


I'm not saying that beliefs are unimportant, but simply that intellectual belief alone is not enough to guarantee good behavior.    


quote:
That is where, I believe, many christians make the mistake of judging others.


Aren't you conflating "judging others" with holding to absolute beliefs?  There is little doubt that Jesus taught absolutes, and yet he also said "judge not."

quote:
Til this day, I can't understand how the christian majority can believe that it is "their way or the highway" when the Bible does not teach that, except that those people come "under the spell" of christian leaders.


Are seriously suggesting that Jesus, and the early apostles did not teach that salvation is exclusively found through Christ?  I am not one who doesn't see problems with overly "wooden" interpretations.  But this case illustrates the difference between taking the Biblical text on it's own terms, and making it so elastic, as to mean anything one wants.



"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" (John 13:6)

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)
  


Don't you think it would be easier, and more respectable, to say "I don't agree with what the Bible says", rather than to suggest that it really doesn't say these kinds of things?


Lastly, getting back to the subject at hand, I will point out an irony.  The Pope is a prime example of the kind of person you tend to downplay ... a peaceful person who holds to religious absolutes.  And the only criticism you had for him was that he is unable to bring about peace.  But that's not the same thing as saying his beliefs lead to more violence.  Those are two different arguments.


Stephen.
Christopher
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30 posted 12-04-2006 07:02 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

"Why can't we all get along"

"You should believe in God."

Same thing, different text.

A dogma is a dogma, even when you don't have one or say that people should be left alone about theirs.
Edward Grim
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31 posted 12-04-2006 08:04 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Balladeer, I'm not singing why can't we be friends. I'm just wondering why people have to mess with eachother in the realms of religion. Why are people so obsessed with getting others to think the way they do?
Essorant
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32 posted 12-10-2006 12:04 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Human Nature?
Angel4aKing
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33 posted 02-04-2007 05:06 AM       View Profile for Angel4aKing   Email Angel4aKing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Angel4aKing

I just started coming to the discussion forums and I am feeling much enlightenment.
Kind of scary really...I have been through alot of very intense spiritual changes involvng Jesus....I don't know why I am relaying all of this to you. Something in your eyes maybe. I know what you are saying here and I agree 100% I don't belong to an organized religion but I believe in Jesus. I've woke up several times recently but everyone around me is asleep...Thank you I am glad to see someone with the light on.
Edward Grim
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34 posted 02-06-2007 11:48 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Lol, human nature? Yeah... Not this human. Let me ask you, are you Catholic? Do you have a fascination with flightless birds? Is your favorite hobby ping pong or filmmaking? Do you like German death metal or Irish folk music? I don't care if you answered no to all of the above or yes to all of the above. If you answered yes, we'll make a movie about emu playing ping pong while listening to bagpipes then we'll go to confessions. If your answers are no, I'm not gonna try and change your mind. I couldn't care less. If I meet an atheist on the street, I'm not gonna try to convert him. If my new girlfriend decides that drywall is composed of monkey brains, I'm fine with it, in fact I think it'd be groovy. Humans annoy me because they just can't keep their beliefs to themselves. They have to force it onto others.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

Ron
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35 posted 02-07-2007 09:15 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Humans annoy me because they just can't keep their beliefs to themselves. They have to force it onto others.

You mean a bit like you just did?
Stephanos
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36 posted 02-07-2007 10:40 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ed:
quote:
If I meet an atheist on the street, I'm not gonna try to convert him.


That could possibly be interpreted as "My own beliefs aren't really that important or consequential."  Or that you don't really believe them that much.  If you're a Catholic, shouldn't you care that without God other souls will suffer for it?  

quote:
If my new girlfriend decides that drywall is composed of monkey brains, I'm fine with it, in fact I think it'd be groovy.


That's absurd.  Of course you would try and correct her.  And I'll bet if she were the type of person that continued to believe something like that, that you wouldn't think it was so "groovy" after a while.

But your continual equating of the question of God with trivial or absurd questions is interesting to me.  Have you ever pondered seriously what implications that tendency might have on your own faith?


Or are you just being flamboyantly disagreeable again, for fun?  Actually I hope it is the latter.


And Ron does have a point.  Your expression that people shouldn't try to convince others about belief, is a belief that you seem awfully concerned about convincing others of.  

Stephen.  
  
Edward Grim
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37 posted 02-07-2007 10:43 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

What the heck is that supposed to mean? That is a ridiculous statement. I'm not telling you to agree with me, I'm just saying how I feel. I am in no way forcing you to think the way I do. Why would you say something like that Ron? If you're going to make comments like that, I'd appreciate it if you gave an explanation for why you said that.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

Stephanos
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38 posted 02-07-2007 10:47 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
I'm not telling you to agree with me


Come on, are you seriously trying to tell us that persuasive rhetoric (by anyone) does not implicitly say "agree with me"?


Stephen
Edward Grim
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39 posted 02-07-2007 10:54 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Stephen: (my first post was for Ron)

"That could possibly be interpreted as "My own beliefs aren't really that important or consequential."  Or that you don't really believe them that much.  If you're a Catholic, shouldn't you care that without God other souls will suffer for it?"

It's interesting to me that you are constantly trying to challenge how much of a Catholic I am. Up until now, I didn't mind so much. But me consistently having to defend myself is getting a little old. First off, it's none of my business what other people think and believe.  And I find it strange that you think that if I'm not willing to shove my beliefs down another's throat until they agree with me, "My own beliefs aren't really that important or consequential." That's not an accurate thing to say, Stephen.


"Or are you just being flamboyantly disagreeable again, for fun?  Actually I hope it is that."

Well no actually, sorry about that.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

Edward Grim
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40 posted 02-07-2007 11:05 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"And Ron does have a point.  Your expression that people shouldn't try to convince others about belief, is a belief that you seem awfully concerned about convincing others of."

Do I have a target on my back? I must have. I talk about this a lot because on a forum filled with people who think they can't be wrong the subject tends to come up a lot. I don't believe in forcing thoughts onto another until they agree with you. I didn't know you were into stuff like that. I always thought of it as brainwashing but if you're into it, then hey that's your thing.


"Come on, are you seriously trying to tell us that persuasive rhetoric (by anyone) does not implicitly say "agree with me"?"

Oh you caught me. It's true that when I say "I not telling you to agree" I'm really saying "Agree with with or else!". What do you think I mean Stephen, I mean come on. When I say something, I mean it. I don't see why everyone has to target me for any little comment I make on the forum.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

Stephanos
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41 posted 02-07-2007 11:09 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ed,

We may as well IM eh?  We're on here at the same time.  

quote:
First off, it's none of my business what other people think and believe.


Discussions often involve what people think or believe.  This is true in life in general, but how much more true in a philosophy forum which centers around the discussion of such things?  Maybe you would find the forum "feelings" more to your taste?

quote:
And I find it strange that you think that if I'm not willing to shove my beliefs down another's throat until they agree with me, "My own beliefs aren't really that important or consequential." That's not an accurate thing to say, Stephen.



I find it equally strange that you think the format of offering arguments and counter-arguments for beliefs (which is standard fare in a philosophy forum), means "shoving beliefs down another's throat."


There are tactful ways to share beliefs, and even to say "you are wrong".  I would be the first to agree with you that there's a wrong and distasteful way of saying things.  But are you thereby implying that that's what we're always doing here?  


I'd like to see you make the distinction between a gentlemanly defense of belief, and an insecure ramming.  You seem to throw it all into one basket, and say that beliefs shouldn't go beyond the private realm.  Maybe in your world, all you ever hear is inept wrangling and insulting in the name of religious belief.  And to be honest, I sympathize with you.  That can turn some of the best things to talk about into the worst.  But I assure you it doesn't have to be like that.


Stephen.
Stephanos
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42 posted 02-07-2007 11:14 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Stephen:"Come on, are you seriously trying to tell us that persuasive rhetoric (by anyone) does not implicitly say "agree with me"?"

Ed::  Oh you caught me. It's true that when I say "I not telling you to agree" I'm really saying "Agree with with or else!". What do you think I mean Stephen, I mean come on. When I say something, I mean it. I don't see why everyone has to target me for any little comment I make on the forum.


To convince me of what you're saying you'll have to explain why "Agree with me" has to contain the personal spite of "Agree with me, or else".  You are failing to make an important distinction I think.  


Stephen.  
Edward Grim
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43 posted 02-07-2007 11:29 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Lol, yeah really.


Yeah Stephen I think now I see where this confused you. You thought I was saying "The people here are forcing their beliefs onto others" or something on those lines. Not even close. I can see where this happened because the thread is so old, lol. We were talking about holy wars. I said earlier:

"A belief, is an intangible thing; so why all the bloodshed? People just need to be groovy about this stuff.
     I think holy wars are the worst and most violent wars out there. It's all about people trying to impose their beliefs onto other people, it's not right. It's people terrorizing people. I think people use religion and holy wars as an excuse to go to war. It's getting to a point where humans can't coexist anymore. Itís sadÖ"

[I find it equally strange that you think the format of offering arguments and counter-arguments for beliefs (which is standard fare in a philosophy forum), means "shoving beliefs down another's throat."]

See this is where you are a little confused, lol.

"an insecure ramming."

Is that what I'm doing?

"say that beliefs shouldn't go beyond the private realm."

Yeah I see what you're saying. I know I probably implied that but that's not fully it. Obviously I don't mind talking about this sort of thing or else I wouldn't be here. I just don't agree with forcing someone to think the same as you. I can't see where the problem with me saying that is.

"Maybe in your world, all you ever hear is inept wrangling and insulting in the name of religious belief."

Hmm, not quite. My world is being expected to do what my family does. Not being allowed to go my own path in life is one of my many problems. I refuse to be forced into a business I want nothing to do with, my family doesn't seem get that. It's not really about religion, it's all business; business I'm trying to get away from.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

Edward Grim
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44 posted 02-07-2007 11:43 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

"To convince me of what you're saying you'll have to explain why "Agree with me" has to contain the personal spite of "Agree with me, or else".  You are failing to make an important distinction I think."

All right, that's a fair comment. I didn't word it correctly. Here's a better example:

You should agree with me.
You have to agree with me.

And saying "Agree with me" isn't the same as saying "You have to agree with me." In any disucussion, one side wants the other to agree. So really, anytime you post your views on something, you are looking for concurence. You don't post your thoughts so people can disagree. Now let's look at holy wars, which is how this discussion came about. They are not saying with gun in hand "I'd like it if you'd agreed with me." No! They're saying "Agree with me or I'll show you why I didn't leave my gun at home!" Another example: "You have to be an attorney, and work for the family firm." "No" "It wasn't a choice, it's a glimpse at reality. Because there's nothing else you can do." That sounds like forcing thoughts onto someone.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

Stephanos
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45 posted 02-07-2007 11:49 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Ed:
quote:
They are not saying with gun in hand "I'd like it if you'd agreed with me." No! They're saying "Agree with me or I'll show you why I didn't leave my gun at home!"

I guess my confusion arose when you compared this form of violent coercion with "convincing an atheist", or even telling your girlfriend that sheetrock is most definitely not made of monkey brains.  Your examples did not fit the description of what you are now more clearly denouncing.  


But thanks for responding.  I feel I understand you better now, and hopefully you, me.  


Stephen.
Edward Grim
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46 posted 02-07-2007 12:05 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Well I'll admit Stephen, I did somewhat veer off topic a bit with other forms of forcing beliefs onto people. It must be ADD or something, lol. And I admit the monkey brains thing was ridiculous. I tend to give awful examples like that. What can I do, that's how I work sometimes. Cheers   - Ed

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

Stephanos
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47 posted 02-07-2007 12:09 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I'd still say that trying to "convince" an atheist to believe in God does not fall under the category of "forcing".  But it all depends on how far it goes.


And BTW, alot of creative people have a touch of ADD.  I think I do, to be honest.     What was your name again?


Stephen.
Edward Grim
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48 posted 02-08-2007 11:52 AM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Oh well neither do I. I was talking about actually trying to force them, not just discussing it. Anybody can discuss anything peacefully, maybe not me, lol. Don't worry, I'll try to work on that.

"And BTW, alot of creative people have a touch of ADD."

Yeah, that's what my Mom used to tell me. But then again, those were the days when I put on a Statue of Liberty mask and went around asking people to vote for the Communist party. It was just a joke wrought by summer ennui. Not a lot of people laughed though, cops didn't find it too humorous. lol.

And I said to the devil, "You better leave my spleen alone."

 
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