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Passions in Poetry

In presentation of arguements

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Juju
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0 posted 10-04-2006 01:35 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju


Whats worse logical fallacies or grammer and spelling when presenting an arguement?


-Juju

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Ringo
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1 posted 10-04-2006 02:58 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Personally, I am going to go for the spelling and grammer.
I can always point out the gaps in logic, and attempt to show the opposition their errors (in my belief, anyhow) if their logic is flawed. Poor spelling (regardless of how often I am guilty) changes one from logically flawed to unintelligent.

You may burn my flag... only after you wrap yourself in it first.
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iliana
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2 posted 10-04-2006 04:03 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Juju, for me, the argument loses credibility when the presentation is full of error.  However, if I was a teacher grading papers, I would give points for the logic if it was on track.  Hope that helps.  
Ron
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3 posted 10-04-2006 08:34 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

What's worse? Logical fallacies or grammar and spelling when presenting an argument?

That's a bit like asking someone if they'd prefer to lose an arm to gangrene or a leg to bone cancer. I don't think either alternative should ever be welcomed.

If you lay on your back and stare at a cloud in the sky long enough it's usually possible to imagine a shape hiding within it. It might be a dragon, it might be a tree, it might be a bird chasing a Siamese cat. Trouble is, with that image firmly established, it's sometimes difficult to see anything beyond that image. That's the way it often is with logical fallacies, I think. Perceptions have to be shifted and that's something I suspect doesn't come naturally to the human mind. The brain has to be trained to do it, and even then, sometimes it needs help from an outside observer. Logical fallacies are something we should all ward against but which sometimes can't be avoided. I often think of it as a human foible.

In this day of word processors and spell checkers, however, there simply is little excuse for misspelled words. I'm a bit more tolerant of poor grammar or misplaced punctuation, but misspellings simply tell me that someone doesn't care yet. I'll still listen to them, but frankly, to return to my gangrene/bone cancer analogy, their arguments don't have a leg to stand on.


Juju
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4 posted 10-04-2006 10:35 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Thankyou,

I was thinking about that problem last night, because me and a classmate were fighting about it. She right out pointed at my spelling errors (in my notes)and made a blatant judgment and called me stupid. I pointed at her problems in areas like red herrings, and so forth.

Overall I won the argument since it was in my notes and she made comments all the time.  But I was curios if it was an even field.  

I am bias towards thinking the spelling errors are better, but I am an engineer.  Were are only expected to have grammar and spelling correct on emails, papers and memos.  If our logic is wrong we are typically torn to shreds.


-juju

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Ron
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5 posted 10-04-2006 01:35 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Were are only expected to have grammar and spelling correct on emails, papers and memos.

Perhaps you should consider setting your own expectations, Juju?
Juju
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6 posted 10-04-2006 03:47 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

(:
Hey, I spell check when I post poems, Just not replies.  I even grammer check them.

-Juju

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Juju
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7 posted 10-04-2006 05:46 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Maybe not the titles though.....

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JesusChristPose
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8 posted 10-04-2006 06:37 PM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

Is this for real?

"Melvin, the best thing you got going for you is your willingness to humiliate yourself."

Juju
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9 posted 10-05-2006 12:58 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

What?

Well to allot of you this may seem like thereís a simple answer.  But I know several people in engineering that canít spell engineer.  To allot of us we feel that spelling isn't that big a deal.  I am curious if spelling is a measure of intelligence and speech.  I have problems speaking and spelling (I canít learn by phonics) I have come across a lot of people who believe I am stupid because of this.  Now I didnít start speaking till I was four, for I am at an disadvantage.  I am curious if such a judgment is fair.  Now for work on the computer, yes you should look at spell check.  But I am just trying to make a point on judging a book by its cover.  Thatís all.

I am NOT defending me not spell checking everything I do.  I donít post , reply, and spell check at times because I have a lack of time.  Personally I have people tell me that the reason people donít read my poetry is because of my spelling, but I know that isnít the reason.  I know once I started having my poems spell checked I had less people read my poems.  I donít really care for that to much though, because I came here to grow, and I feel I have not grown as much as I wanted to here, so most of the time I come and read people I look for and post random poems.  In fact my style has gotten very sloppy.   I look at my old poems and they are much better.  

Even if I am not a popular poet here I donít really care.  I donít post my best poetry here, not as an insult to this site, but because those are my babies I usually spend allot of time and effort on those and they are mine.  I still come here because I enjoy going through and reading poems.  Thatís what I do.  I usually post on newer poets poems, because I like freshness. Particularly voice.  I also post on my favorite poets too.

Do I care if they misspell? No, because as I said in the beginning I care more about structure, freshness, and voice.    


I am just clearing up your questions, avoiding attack and wanting to get back on topic. So what is a fair judgment?


-Juju

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kif kif
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10 posted 10-05-2006 07:24 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

I've never used a spellcheck, I use a dictionary. That might help you with phonetics, as it's 'spelled out' as it's spoken. (My grammar's not that brilliant, either!)

I think both spelling and logic are equally  important here...it doesn't matter if you're an engineer, philanthropist, school teacher or go-go dancer, whatever, if you want to write for others to see and hear, you'll want to 'get it right'.

Some people spell things badly deliberately I think, kind of like 'you can't tell me how to spell', but I think bad spelling detracts from the overall read. Of course, there are colloquial spellings that can add a more authentic voice, too, as well as illogical writes that are fantastic, but my advice to myself has always been 'don't break it until you first know how it works.'

For presenting an argument, the less your opponent has to ridicule you with, the better.
Essorant
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11 posted 10-05-2006 01:25 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

More think is important a that bit sentence-structure I than perfect spelling.    

Local Rebel
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12 posted 10-05-2006 06:51 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Writing a good memo Juju is going to take you farther in engineering than writing a hundred perfect specifications.

Only worry about spelling if you want to get a job and be promoted.
Juju
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13 posted 10-05-2006 07:10 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

That's why they make us spell and grammer check  anything that is formal. (:

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Not A Poet
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14 posted 10-05-2006 07:55 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Reb's advice is sterling. The real world turns on the written word. Those who do it well have exceedingly better chances of success.
Juju
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15 posted 10-05-2006 08:08 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I am not defending my actions I had done in the past here at pip.  I just am making a point.  

-Juju

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iliana
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16 posted 10-06-2006 01:25 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Ron and Not A Poet are very accurate in what they've said.  In the real word, the first impression is on paper most of the time.    

[This message has been edited by iliana (10-06-2006 02:01 AM).]

ChristianSpeaks
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17 posted 11-09-2006 01:27 PM       View Profile for ChristianSpeaks   Email ChristianSpeaks   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ChristianSpeaks

I would say that if you are going to take the considerable amount of time to construct a good argument that requires directed thinking and logical scrutiny, you would take the four and a half seconds to check your spelling and grammar in correspondance. I'm not sure what I would say for your notes. You may have a nosy friend. But, if you are going to remove the 800 pound gorilla to save the couch, I'd get rid of the termite to save the house.

CS
Christopher
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18 posted 11-09-2006 02:56 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

quote:
To allot of us we feel that spelling isn't that big a deal.
I don't think this is just in the engineering field, I think it's more a philosophy of the bulk of the generation now in college or leaving it. It does not bode well for the future in my opinion.

As an employer who has hired many people, both salaried (ie engineers) and hourly (ie admin) and have never once considered hiring someone who has either poor English skills in their resumes or in conversation. The idea that [you] don't care unless it's in a memo, etc. to me, is the same as not caring period - why should I beleive that you'll care about the quality of your work if you don't care about the quality of your presentations?
serenity blaze
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19 posted 11-09-2006 04:54 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

psssssssst...

quote:
beleive


Um, "i before e except after" -- C?



Christopher
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20 posted 11-09-2006 05:57 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

ah well - the hypocrite is dragged from his closet.
serenity blaze
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21 posted 11-09-2006 06:04 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I couldn't resist, lovie.



But then, I never could, could I?

Stephanos
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22 posted 11-10-2006 12:01 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

In your defense Christopher, an argument can be made that a conscientiousness of grammar (though not perfect) is to be preferred to out and out sloppiness.  Every head has a gray hair or two, but that doesn't make one old (yet).  

And Karen, my spellcheck beet you too it!

Stephen.
Stephanos
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23 posted 11-10-2006 12:03 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

drat!  I guess a few homophones may still get buy!


Stephen.
JesusChristPose
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24 posted 11-10-2006 12:12 AM       View Profile for JesusChristPose   Email JesusChristPose   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JesusChristPose

"drat!  I guess a few homophones may still get buy!"

~ Seriously, what did you really mean by homophones?

 
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